Med Winter Liveaboard Suggestions Please

[nortada]

Ashore maybe but not so many afloat in marinas over the winter

Chris

Not from my observations over the past 20 years.

Due to relative costs, marinas are as full (if not fuller) during the ‘winter months’ (mid-Sep to mid Jun).

A growing trend is for owners to get a 6 or 9 month winter contract in a marina, then cruise the balance of the year or haul for the summer months, when it is too hot, too busy with holiday boats and visitors from over seas and very expensive.

As an alternative, some winter on their boats but haul in the summer and return to Northern Europe to their holiday home.

Meanwhile ‘their’ winter berth is let to a number of short-term visitors, who often use marinas for one or 2 nights then return to time on anchor. These short stops make the mooring dues more manageable. Because mooring dues are often shared by a number of holiday cruisers, the cost of stop-overs in marinas is less financially painful.

So forget any ideas that you may cut a super deal with marinas in winter - they don’t need you.

As to the future, once the restrictions on travel caused by Covid are lifted, I suspect that this trend will return to normal. Although, because of Brexit, a number of U.K. flagged boats will return to U.K. and fewer U.K. will cruise long distances into Europe. However, once the situation is understood, U.K. based boats will cruise for up to 90 days in Schengen waters, down the European Western coasts

A neat trick could, be boat-share whereby, non- EU resident friends and/or families could have shared ownership and use the boat for up to 180 days per year in the EU. summer months cruising, and during winter months as a base for winter cruising in the sun or as accommodation for winter holidays.

Finally, can’t comment on elsewhere but in the Algarve, this winter marinas are fuller than usual. Possibly due to problems caused by Covid but the proportion of European flagged boats is well up on U.K. ones.

 

[nortada]

Visiting boats are limited to 18 months so better to winter outside EU if possible, unless the clock can be stopped if laid up ashore out of commission?

Or include an over night stop-over outside the EU in your summers sailing itinerary; thereby restarting the 18 month clock. Tangeriers or Smir anybody

From my tentative enquiries, time ashore, out of commission, will not stop the clock.

 

[RupertW]

Visiting boats are limited to 18 months so better to winter outside EU if possible, unless the clock can be stopped if laid up ashore out of commission?

I suspect the majority (the vast majority?) of boats who are planning winters in the EU were already there on 31/12/20 so have unlimited time to stay there.

 

[nortada]

At the moment that looks to be the case re winter layup ashore and stopping the clock.

Chris

Do you have a link or any evidence for stopping the clock

Potentially a good selling point but when push becomes shove

For Brits, new territory so one solution is to get a British flagged boat with EU VAT status.

Possibly, in the future, there will be a market to buy British flagged boats with EU status, cruise Europe for a few seasons and then sell the boat on (possibly to another Brit) who wants to cruise Europe.

if Schengen was changed to 180/360 this would really kick in.

 

[nortada]

OK slight thread drift.

I am aware of 2 couples who are good friends and regularly cruise together.

Originally both Solent based, last summer they sailed one of the boats out to Portugal and while there all got Portuguese residency.

Regarding cruising and VAT, they now have the best of both worlds. Provided they remain good friends‼

Possibly a way ahead for others, even if they do not have residency, sell one of the U.K. based boats and buy a British flagged boat in Europe with EU VAT status. Then time share cruising in Europe and the U.K.

We have a similar plan, 2 boats one U.K. based, with U.K. VAT status, the other, permanently, in Europe. Until Covid we commuted between the 2.

This is what happens it you are ‘Billy No Mates’?

 

[nortada]

I suspect the majority (the vast majority?) of boats who are planning winters in the EU were already there on 31/12/20 so have unlimited time to stay there.

Provided they have residency.

 

[RupertW]

Provided they have residency.

No, I meant the boats have unlimited time to stay there. Agreed that people with third country passports (poor things) need residency to stay there pas 90/180.

 

[Crisby]

Do you have a link or any evidence for stopping the clock

Potentially a good selling point but when push becomes shove

For Brits, new territory so one solution is to get a British flagged boat with EU VAT status.

Possibly, in the future, there will be a market to buy British flagged boats with EU status, cruise Europe for a few seasons and then sell the boat on (possibly to another Brit) who wants to cruise Europe.

if Schengen was changed to 180/360 this would really kick in.

I will try and find a link, there is a discussion ongoing on a Cruising association forum relating to Transit logs for Greece but I’m not sure it would be right for me to post a link directly from the CA.
This is an excerpt from a public document linked in a forum though so I think that this is ok,

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Tax Relief and Facilities(F-1) / Private Pleasure Boats
Private Pleasure Boats
1.When the private pleasure boat has a length exceeding 7 meters, bears a flag of a non EU country and the person who brings it over in order to use it in our country, irrespective of being the ship-owner or not, has his/her normal residence in non EU country, he/she is provided by the competent Customs Authority with a Transit Log, valid for six months. The temporary importation of boats for six months may be continuous or interrupted per twelve-month period and, upon its expiry, the boat must be re-exported or moored for wintering, by returning the Transit Log to the competent Customs Authority.
This period may be extended for six months per year each time, in order to cover the stay of the boat in our country or the continuation of its use for pleasure trips by the person who initially brought it over or by another authorised person, provided that he/she has his/her usual residence in a non EU country as well.
The owner - user of the boat must always be aboard, a fact which is checked each time, during sailing out or into the harbour, by the Customs or Port Authorities.
2. Similarly, this period is neither extended nor renewed in any case, even when the owner- user changes, before or after its expiry, particularly in case that the ship-owner is a legal entity (company).
In case that the person bringing over the boat in our country, wishes for the boat to stay in the Greek territorial waters for a period exceeding one month, he/she must proceed to the customs clearance of the boat and pay the corresponding duties and taxes.
After the customs clearance, and provided that the boat continues to bear a flag of a non EU country, in order to sale within the Greek territorial waters, it is provided with a Transit Log of indefinite duration.
The Transit Log is issued for private pleasure boats bearing a flag of a non EU country, which have a total length exceeding 7 meters, having accommodation space or not, have the capability, because of their general construction, to be used exclusively for the performance of pleasure trips or cruises, provided that they are not classified as professional and are subject to the procedure of temporary importation or for private pleasure boats that are not subject to this system, because the owners-users have their normal residence in a member-state of the European Union or in our country, but wish to make pleasure trips in the Greek territorial waters, maintaining at the same time a flag and shipping register of a non EU country. 31

Chris

 

[syvictoria]

if Schengen was changed to 180/360 this would really kick in.

I'm sure that I read somewhere - although I can't find any reference now - that a potential change to extend the 90 days was considered and discounted some years back? I think a change to the Schengen rules is (sadly) very unlikely, as it would I imagine have to be applied to all third country nationals and would possibly have unwanted tax implications in some states. I think additional bilateral agreements and/or visas are far more likely. This will, I think, be addressed on a country by country basis - if at all.

 

[syvictoria]

I will try and find a link, there is a discussion ongoing on a Cruising association forum relating to Transit logs for Greece but I’m not sure it would be right for me to post a link directly from the CA.
This is an excerpt from a public document linked in a forum though so I think that this is ok,

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You are here : home / FAQs
FAQs
Tax Relief and Facilities(F-1) / Private Pleasure Boats
Private Pleasure Boats
1.When the private pleasure boat has a length exceeding 7 meters, bears a flag of a non EU country and the person who brings it over in order to use it in our country, irrespective of being the ship-owner or not, has his/her normal residence in non EU country, he/she is provided by the competent Customs Authority with a Transit Log, valid for six months. The temporary importation of boats for six months may be continuous or interrupted per twelve-month period and, upon its expiry, the boat must be re-exported or moored for wintering, by returning the Transit Log to the competent Customs Authority.
This period may be extended for six months per year each time, in order to cover the stay of the boat in our country or the continuation of its use for pleasure trips by the person who initially brought it over or by another authorised person, provided that he/she has his/her usual residence in a non EU country as well.
The owner - user of the boat must always be aboard, a fact which is checked each time, during sailing out or into the harbour, by the Customs or Port Authorities.
2. Similarly, this period is neither extended nor renewed in any case, even when the owner- user changes, before or after its expiry, particularly in case that the ship-owner is a legal entity (company).
In case that the person bringing over the boat in our country, wishes for the boat to stay in the Greek territorial waters for a period exceeding one month, he/she must proceed to the customs clearance of the boat and pay the corresponding duties and taxes.
After the customs clearance, and provided that the boat continues to bear a flag of a non EU country, in order to sale within the Greek territorial waters, it is provided with a Transit Log of indefinite duration.
The Transit Log is issued for private pleasure boats bearing a flag of a non EU country, which have a total length exceeding 7 meters, having accommodation space or not, have the capability, because of their general construction, to be used exclusively for the performance of pleasure trips or cruises, provided that they are not classified as professional and are subject to the procedure of temporary importation or for private pleasure boats that are not subject to this system, because the owners-users have their normal residence in a member-state of the European Union or in our country, but wish to make pleasure trips in the Greek territorial waters, maintaining at the same time a flag and shipping register of a non EU country. 31

Chris

Sorry, I may be misunderstanding here, but is the above not relating just to the Greek Transit Log and not VAT? I may be wrong, but I've never heard of the VAT 18 month clock being stopped when ashore. The boat will still be in the EU, after all, and TA relates to a lot more than just boats, doesn't it?

 

[nortada]

I will try and find a link, there is a discussion ongoing on a Cruising association forum relating to Transit logs for Greece but I’m not sure it would be right for me to post a link directly from the CA.
This is an excerpt from a public document linked in a forum though so I think that this is ok,

Customs authority e-services
News
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Documents - Information FAQs
Faq Archive Additional Functions Official Gazette Links
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Links
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Main Page | Announcements | Contact us | e_Transactions_Sign in or Register
You are here : home / FAQs
FAQs
Tax Relief and Facilities(F-1) / Private Pleasure Boats
Private Pleasure Boats
1.When the private pleasure boat has a length exceeding 7 meters, bears a flag of a non EU country and the person who brings it over in order to use it in our country, irrespective of being the ship-owner or not, has his/her normal residence in non EU country, he/she is provided by the competent Customs Authority with a Transit Log, valid for six months. The temporary importation of boats for six months may be continuous or interrupted per twelve-month period and, upon its expiry, the boat must be re-exported or moored for wintering, by returning the Transit Log to the competent Customs Authority.
This period may be extended for six months per year each time, in order to cover the stay of the boat in our country or the continuation of its use for pleasure trips by the person who initially brought it over or by another authorised person, provided that he/she has his/her usual residence in a non EU country as well.
The owner - user of the boat must always be aboard, a fact which is checked each time, during sailing out or into the harbour, by the Customs or Port Authorities.
2. Similarly, this period is neither extended nor renewed in any case, even when the owner- user changes, before or after its expiry, particularly in case that the ship-owner is a legal entity (company).
In case that the person bringing over the boat in our country, wishes for the boat to stay in the Greek territorial waters for a period exceeding one month, he/she must proceed to the customs clearance of the boat and pay the corresponding duties and taxes.
After the customs clearance, and provided that the boat continues to bear a flag of a non EU country, in order to sale within the Greek territorial waters, it is provided with a Transit Log of indefinite duration.
The Transit Log is issued for private pleasure boats bearing a flag of a non EU country, which have a total length exceeding 7 meters, having accommodation space or not, have the capability, because of their general construction, to be used exclusively for the performance of pleasure trips or cruises, provided that they are not classified as professional and are subject to the procedure of temporary importation or for private pleasure boats that are not subject to this system, because the owners-users have their normal residence in a member-state of the European Union or in our country, but wish to make pleasure trips in the Greek territorial waters, maintaining at the same time a flag and shipping register of a non EU country. 31

Chris

Thanks, not the easiest document to read.

In a thread that is about Med Winter Liveaboard Suggestions, I think it is important to stress about that this is the situation in Greece.

Many EU counties do not even have Transit Logs.

There is an active thread, devoted to Greek Transit Logs:- GREEK TRANSIT LOG ISSUE - IMPORTANT

 

[nortada]

I'm sure that I read somewhere - although I can't find any reference now - that a potential change to extend the 90 days was considered and discounted some years back? I think a change to the Schengen rules is (sadly) very unlikely, as it would I imagine have to be applied to all third country nationals and would possibly have unwanted tax implications in some states. I think additional bilateral agreements and/or visas are far more likely. This will, I think, be addressed on a country by country basis - if at all.

I agree bilats could be the way to go.

Of course the elephant in the room, as there are no national boarders in the Schengen Zone, people could migrate between countries with no checks.

 

[Crisby]

Thanks, not the easiest document to read.

Think it is important to recognise that this is the situation in Greece.

Many EU counties do not have Transit Logs.

Not easy at all, especially as I’m still on my first coffee, and although it relates to the situation in Greece the TL is linked to the VAT status of the boat.

Coming back to your point about winter marina deals the issue for me would be leaving the boat afloat for 6 months or more without being able to check her regularly throughout the winter. I know people do but it’s not for me.

Chris

 

[BobnLesley]

Rather dated and only of use for those in the western Med, but we once spent some time at the Rabat-Bouragreg Marina in Morocco and were very impressed with facilities, location and price. It's a 24-30 hour sail from Gibraltar; I understand that there's also now a decent marina in Tangier though no idea of price and facilities there.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Not easy at all, especially as I’m still on my first coffee, and although it relates to the situation in Greece the TL is linked to the VAT status of the boat.

Coming back to your point about winter marina deals the issue for me would be leaving the boat afloat for 6 months or more without being able to check her regularly throughout the winter. I know people do but it’s not for me.

Chris

Chris I know there not many who like doing long and night sails , but we use to do Greece to Malta three days two nights something a third night depending on wind , then it's only another 36hours or some time less from the north of Malta to Monistir .
So in less then a week if weather is kind you could be out of the EU . The other option is Turkey , so you could still winter on the boat in the Med if you wanted too .

 

[nortada]

Not easy at all, especially as I’m still on my first coffee, and although it relates to the situation in Greece the TL is linked to the VAT status of the boat.

Coming back to your point about winter marina deals the issue for me would be leaving the boat afloat for 6 months or more without being able to check her regularly throughout the winter. I know people do but it’s not for me.

Chris

Why not haul out for the winter

 

[RupertW]

Why not haul out for the winter

From personal experience I’d always rather have a boat left unattended afloat than ashore but I think most peoples preferences are more based on anxiety than logic - in either situation the chance of significant damage is very very small compared to the number of boats left in either situation.

But I’m still nervous about my boat left at the end of August with no prospect yet of a date to get out and check it.

 

[Crisby]

Chris I know there not many who like doing long and night sails , but we use to do Greece to Malta three days two nights something a third night depending on wind , then it's only another 36hours or some time less from the north of Malta to Monistir .
So in less then a week if weather is kind you could be out of the EU . The other option is Turkey , so you could still winter on the boat in the Med if you wanted too .

If we could spend 5/6 months there on board over the winter its definitely an option

Chris

 

[Crisby]

Why not haul out for the winter

Not so keen living on board ashore and we will still have the 90/180 issue if in Schengen. At the moment we haul out in Preveza for the winter.

Chris

 

[Crisby]

From personal experience I’d always rather have a boat left unattended afloat than ashore but I think most peoples preferences are more based on anxiety than logic - in either situation the chance of significant damage is very very small compared to the number of boats left in either situation.

But I’m still nervous about my boat left at the end of August with no prospect yet of a date to get out and check it.

I agree with your point about anxiety vs logic, especially after having a boat damaged by a hit and run whilst tied to a pontoon and that was somewhere we could check on a weekly basis.
What we are after here though is not somewhere to leave the boat but somewhere to moor her with us on board where we can stay in the country for more than 90 days so we don’t have to move mid winter. Although the further south that is it becomes less of a problem, we can have 6 months in Grenada apparently!!

Chris