Chart plotter suggestions / sense check please

[tillergirl]

Navionics make daily updates.

The fact that Navionics provides updates automatically does not mean that it updates all changes. Please do not fall into that trap. I have been monitoring Navonics (with daily evidence) a significant change which the UKHO issued on 25 March, 2025 (yes 2025) but Navionics has still not changed it.

 

[dunedin]

Navionics make daily updates.
……

Navionics does do daily updates. BUT most of the Hydrographic Offices, including UKHO, do not currently issue their source data updates to leisure chart publishers that frequently. It can be several months before the HO issue chart updates.
So all you get with a “daily update” is the other changes (not the official HO data) - eg user updates, any updates applied manually by Navionics staff, and any new specialist sources (eg harbour surveys).

 

[Baggywrinkle]

The fact that Navionics provides updates automatically does not mean that it updates all changes. Please do not fall into that trap. I have been monitoring Navonics (with daily evidence) a significant change which the UKHO issued on 25 March, 2025 (yes 2025) but Navionics has still not changed it.

Interesting, what was the change and do you know why it was not included? Updated isn'T a guarantee on particular sources, it gets updated from hundreds of sources.

Navionics does do daily updates. BUT most of the Hydrographic Offices, including UKHO, do not currently issue their source data updates to leisure chart publishers that frequently. It can be several months before the HO issue chart updates.
So all you get with a “daily update” is the other changes (not the official HO data) - eg user updates, any updates applied manually by Navionics staff, and any new specialist sources (eg harbour surveys).

I find the crowd sourced stuff for the area I sail very useful, and with the exception of one bay where the zoomed in position was offset, I've never encountered a serious problem. There is a reason why every chart-plotter claims to be "an aid to navigation" rather than an oracle of truth, and the word "uncharted" exists because for centuries users of charts have been finding errors or corrections.

If used commercially, then the standard has to be higher as there is far more at stake, so the sources are deliberately limited, but ultimately the skipper is responsible for proper selection and use of the tools at their disposal.

The Navionics sources, which are many, are listed here ...

Garmin

The UKHO are in there with the following note:

“This product has been derived in part from material obtained from the UK Hydrographic Office (UKHO) with the permission of the UK Hydrographic Office (UKHO), Her Majesty’s Stationery Office, and the following authorities: “© National Hydrographic Office (NHO), Sultanate of Oman, 2019”, “© Netherlands Hydrographic Office (NLHO), 2019”, “© Insituto Hidrogràfico de la Marina (IHM), 2019”, “© Instituto Hidrogràfico, Portugal (IHPT), 2015”, “© Vlaamse Hydrografie, 2019”, “© Servicio de Hidrografía Naval (SHN), 2019”, “© Malta Maritime Authority (MMA), 2019”, “Hrvatski Hydrografski Insitute (HHI), 2021”, “© British Crown Copyright, 2019 “ Notice: The UK Hydrographic Office (UKHO) and its licensors make no warranties or representations, express or implied, with respect to this product. The UKHO and its licensors have not verified the information within this product or quality assured it.”

Google does very well on real-time road mapping, and often gets transient problems like road-works, diversions etc right, planning them into the calculated route. Crowd sourcing is a fantastic source of real world data if the process to clean it is robust.

 

[LittleSister]

. . .
OK ... but consider the draft of some of those ships ... I sailed on ships that had over 75ft draft .....

I hope you got the expected pay-off in reduced leeway when beating to windward.

 

[dunedin]

The fact that Navionics provides updates automatically does not mean that it updates all changes. Please do not fall into that trap. I have been monitoring Navonics (with daily evidence) a significant change which the UKHO issued on 25 March, 2025 (yes 2025) but Navionics has still not changed it.

You asked in post #16 - “Do you think that Navionics regularly update?”

I think it is pretty certain that Navionics does regularly apply updates - albeit as noted in my post #22 above, the official Hydrographic Offices feeds typically do not provide anything like daily updates, some can have a delay of several months.
For example, as you know (and referred to at the recent RIN conference) the work with the RIN - with your and others assistance - showed in one case a circa 6 month delay between a spring survey of the River Deben being performed before the UKHO issued the chart updates (unfortunately missing an entire sailing season - hence why the ECP online sources are so valuable).
But this was a delay in the data provision by the HO.

Not sure what the example you are referring to now is (from March 2025) but can you advise:
(A) If and when it was updated in the official UKHO charts ?
(B) If and when this was updated in other commercial leisure charts such as
(I) C-Map
(II) Lighthouse Charts
(III) Orca
(IV) Savvy Navvy

Without this context it is difficult to assess whether there is any specific issue with Navionics updates, as you imply. Also one location and one change, though important for locals, does not prove a general trend. One would need to look at a wider area (as the RIN work tried to do).

 

[doug748]

Thank you all

I believe my Tacktick gear from circa 2013 is NMEA 0183, so the Onwa could definitely be a good optin. Have reached out to the well recommended UK supplier, and will see what response I get.

I find above the companionway the best mounting spot, you are naturally looking that way and it is directly in your line of sight. Plotters always struggle in bright light so a sprayhood gives some useful shade as well as protection from the elements and random ropes. As you are blessed with a tiller you will also often be seated towards the front of the cockpit, quite within range.
.....Just saying that you may find a small sprayhood could be a great blessing on your proposed longer trips, not least the protection it gives from wind blast and boost to a limited accommodation.

Flush bulkhead mounting involves cutting holes in your lovely boat which, if you keep the boat long enough, you will always regret. Selling the boat passes the regret on to the next owner.

.

 

[ashtead]

You could mount below and pair with a cheap ipad or android etc which you load separately with Navionics. Then you have a back up plotter if you main one fails plus you might find the portability of the iPad/ device useful at home or in pub etc.

 

[tillergirl]

I have no intent of identifying the current defects. If I did so, Navionics would be alerted and we would not understand Navionics' usual procedures.

Where Navionics failed that update in over a year, C-Map did (and several other changes in other places) very promptly. I am afraid I am a pensioner and I spend any spare cash on amateur surveys rather than buying Lighthouse, Orca or Savvy Navvy. But I do use current UKHO echarts and paper charts.

I did not assist with RIN - yes I did pre-conference try to correct their understanding of how the Deben is treated. UKHO charts do not display buoyage there save for the Haven Safe Water buoy which is seldom moved and the marginal note says quite clearly "Entry is not recommended without extensive local knowledge (my emphasis). Assistance with transit may be available; contact the Harbour Master at Felixstowe Ferry." The UKHO know that keeping a SNC at that sort of scale is impossible - next week could change - and they also know that the locals (who can be seen on the ECF), ECP and Trinity House have worked out a way of providing the very latest information. You might be interested in Navionics view of the marginal note at the Deben? "Woodbridge Haven is dangerous in strong onshore winds especially on the ebb which runs very strongly out of the rivers (sic) at springs. The buoys and beacons are moved to meet frequent changes in the positions of the channels" further "At Woodbridge Haven the rear leading beacon is red. The front beacon red with a white triangle. The beacons may be lit in an emergency" - Really?

I know that to criticise Navionics is a very unpopular thing to do but I suspect that I am the only person in the world who has been monitors Navinoics daily - it is a rather tedious business. And it is a dismal business when for example you refer back to a change of depth reported by the UKHO back on 4th November. A typical notice which says "At position, insert depth 'x', delete depth 'y' close NW". And yet when you go to Navionics in November, or December, or January or February, or March today and you cannot even find the depth 'y' to delete because the depth in that location is 3 metres different! At least C-Map had the old' depth!

Your final sentence is interesting. I did speak to an organiser of the RIN conference and offered to make a video of my evidence - after all the documentary evidence already comprised over 100 pages and it is a visual business. But it was quite clear that there was no interest. They could have assessed the evidence.

 

[JesseLoynes]

I've added a photo below for ease of description. In reply to a couple of the useful suggesitons above:

- There's not much of a companionway, and the it gets a long way forward of the helm position.
- I have wondered about a sprayhood of some design, but space is tight between coachroof and kicker, so unlikely to happen.
- I've marked the likely locations with the blue shading, probably starboard side. (Throttle controls are in the coaming upstand on stbd side in way of tiller.
- I'm fortunate that I can live with cutting holes in the boat - I've built it once, I can repair the hole if necessary.

Guess the photo also shows why paper charts in the cokpit are tricky... so the paperwork will stay below, and we'll have the electronic view in the cockpit.

Jesse.

 

[Elessar]

Good morning all,

I'm looking for an electronic chart option to fit to our 27ft sports/weekender yacht. (I've searched back, but looking for a little situation-specific advice, and potentially update on info from a year or two ago...)

We've got a pretty open cockpit, no sprayhood, and tiller steered. We normally sail double handed. We've sailed the Solent and some familiar lengths of the South Coast essentially by pilotage and memory with occasional chart checks, but now wanting to explore further, and possible a bit more challenging - off to the Scillies etc. It would be reassuring to have a live chart plot visible.

In anything more than a sunny F2, paper charts in the cockpit are unusable, and shorthanded on an active vessel, scrambling down below to check charts is something to do at intervals, so I'm looking for a chart display for the cockpit.

• Likely to be bulkhead mounted so that it won't get caught with any ropework.
• Likely to be a 7 or 9 inch display - rear cabin bulkhead / front of cockpit is 4 or 5 feet ahead of the helm's seated position.
• Likely buttons rather than touchscreen as completely open to elements
• Likely to be offset to port or starboard of companionway, so perhaps mounted at angle toward centre of cockpit for viewing from either side.
• Currently have 2x Tacktick remote displays for wind/position/speed etc.

At the moment that has lead me towards the Raymarine Element 7 or 9. That's approx £375 or £590 incl Lighthouse charts. Probably more offers to be found.

So any thoughts / confirmations if this is a reasonably sensible solution, or particularly any suggestions for alternative given the info above, that would be very helpful, thank you. Jesse.

A chartplotter is a big investment but gets used loads.

The issue with the element plotters is they can’t mirror to a tablet.

A raymarine axiom or es 75 will allow you to do your navigation below at the chart or dining table on a tablet.

The touch screen tablet allows easy input of waypoint and route names. Doing this on a bulkhead mounted plotter gets old very quickly. Doubly so if it’s not touch screen.

However I’m suggesting that you more than double your investment. But for something that’s used so often is maybe it’s worth it. It would be for me.

In the past I’ve bought used plotters on eBay with great success. Maybe that’s a way of getting the best of both worlds.

There are loads of A75 plotters on eBay but this is touchscreen only. The advantage of this is you have a bigger screen for the plotter size. You can put the buttons on your phone and use it as a remote and do your nav below on a tablet.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

… If used commercially, then the standard has to be higher as there is far more at stake, …

Does it have to be lower and is there lessat stake for us plebs? Are your family and friends lives worth less than “commercially” operated vessels.

It’s a discussion ,not just about value, but consequence and impact. In my opinion, my navigation needs as a leisure sailor are just as important as a passenger ferry, cruise liner, fishing vessel, tug etc.

On a small commercial yacht, such as a sailing school boat, the functionality for ENCs and plotters is the same as large ships.

 

[Roberto]

I know that to criticise Navionics is a very unpopular thing to do

A lot of people aren t interested even when one reports examples and examples of (some very serious) errors, oh well why bother each to his own

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Does it have to be lower and is there lessat stake for us plebs? Are your family and friends lives worth less than “commercially” operated vessels.

It’s a discussion ,not just about value, but consequence and impact. In my opinion, my navigation needs as a leisure sailor are just as important as a passenger ferry, cruise liner, fishing vessel, tug etc.

On a small commercial yacht, such as a sailing school boat, the functionality for ENCs and plotters is the same as large ships.

When doing functional safety assessments for automotive, it is the combination of probability and consequences that determine which level a system requires, and hence the development processes. The consequences of failure are not just loss of life, but also the commercial and environmental impact. A ferry loaded with passengers would score way higher than a small private sailing yacht in a risk assessment and FMEA and as a result the requirements put on crew and systems of a passenger ferry would be higher than those on a small yacht. On top of this commercial operators add their own requirements... basically, when it lands in court, a cornerstone of the defence is best practice for the sector.

 

[Refueler]

Does it have to be lower and is there lessat stake for us plebs? Are your family and friends lives worth less than “commercially” operated vessels.

It’s a discussion ,not just about value, but consequence and impact. In my opinion, my navigation needs as a leisure sailor are just as important as a passenger ferry, cruise liner, fishing vessel, tug etc.

On a small commercial yacht, such as a sailing school boat, the functionality for ENCs and plotters is the same as large ships.

The consequences of a tanker running aground compared to you in your yacht are vastly different.

But anyway - my point of remarking about Updates was based on the question of how often updated ... and I thought it might be interesting for people to know about Ships and updates.

 

[wonkywinch]

When Lentune Island formed in the Solent more than three years ago, it took Navionics more than a year to update it on their charts. They blamed lack of source info (ie UKHO) but C Map (B&G) still haven't updated their chart.

This is fairly important to me as you can see one of my anchorages stored with a pin.

Navionics




C MAp/B&G

 

[dunedin]

When Lentune Island formed in the Solent more than three years ago, it took Navionics more than a year to update it on their charts. They blamed lack of source info (ie UKHO) but C Map (B&G) still haven't updated their chart.

This is fairly important to me as you can see one of my anchorages stored with a pin.

This is another good example of the importance of understanding the sources of data and the true meaning of “daily updates”.
I am no expert on that location but looked at the official UKHO raster charts issued (presumably late 2025) with a 2026 release date.
So it looks as though Navionics were correct to say that the official UKHO data had not been updated. And hence why C-Map - and presumably others that rely purely on the UKHO data feed - do not show the new island.
Perhaps Navionics should get the credit for updating from other sources rather than awaiting the official UKHO data to be updated.

This is also another example of the dangers of officialdom assuming that “official charts” are better than commercial leisure charts, whereas the latter can sometimes be more accurate / comprehensive in inshore waters not used by large commercial vessels vessels.

 

[dunedin]

I have no intent of identifying the current defects. If I did so, Navionics would be alerted and we would not understand Navionics' usual procedures.

…..

It is your call, but I am not sure that keeping the location of your anomaly secret to avoid Navionics being “alerted” is a wise one.
Surely if it is important to Navigation it is important to alert them so the issue can be investigated and corrected for other users of what is still the most commonly used source of leisure charts, so they can navigate safely.
It is safe to assume that Navionics are not still processing NtM updates from early 2025. So for some reason this change did not happen, and is unlikely to happen in future unless something changes.

I am not a particular fan of Navionics, particularly some aspects of their licence management post Garmin takeover. However, as the most used source, the internet is awash with grumbles about their licensing and pricing (some on here). So we can be certain that if there was a generic issue about lack of updating # since early 2025 that would be all over the internet.

Hence we must assume your discrepancy is a local anomaly and would be worth raising with them to understand why.
The vast majority of Navionics chart data, like other suppliers, comes from the official HO data feeds. And it is updated automatically, although they also have a small staff of cartographers who process additional data.
So if there is a discrepancy then the most plausible causes might be:
1) The UKHO data feed to leisure chart suppliers has not yet been updated to reflect the NtM, or updated incorrectly (this may not be identical to the ENC datafeed) - like appears to be the case with the Lengune Island example;
2) Navionics have applied some other local survey data from another source to that area (eg harbourmaster or other commercial survey), and this continues to override UKHO data updates. Or
3) Crowd sourced sonar data is being used - but that should be able to be easily switched off.
Only by speaking to senior Garmin / Navionics cartographers will we be able to understand the issue and get corrected, in my humble opinion.

# Interestingly there are some reports that the new Imray JV is struggling to process updates and running 6 months or so behind. Don’t personally use Imray electronic charts so can’t be sure, but hopefully IF true this will be resolved soon.

 

[James_Calvert]

I can't answer the basic exam question but I'm interested in what comes up, my cockpit navigation kit still being pretty old style.

With the cockpit arrangement shown I think I'd want a plotter/navigation device I could wear around my neck!

Or on my wrist.

I have a couple of old handheld GPS devices that do the job on deck when I don't want to risk a phone or tablet. But they rely on waypoint to waypoint style navigation. The very basic plotting screens do provide a very basic level of situational awareness, eg, your actual track v planned, or you can call up the relevant numbers on another screen.

And, with a good bank of waypoints you can generally goto your way around if you don't have a specific route also already in the bank.

I've always thought that all the helm needs to know is the course, and for how long. Waypoint nav does do that job.

 

[dunedin]

….

On a small commercial yacht, such as a sailing school boat, the functionality for ENCs and plotters is the same as large ships.

The functionality of a ship ECDIS is NOT the same as a small craft chart plotter.
And have you priced up a sample of official ENC charts - people grumble about £50 or so for a Navionics UK wide app, or £120 or so per annum on a chart plotter.
The equivalent of full UK charts for ENCs was priced out at well into 5 digits just a year (and they expire after the end so cannot be used thereafter).

 

[Elessar]

What a weird debate.

Take a chart. Some of the data on it is over 100 years old and surveyed by lead line. Send that to a minimum wage worker in the mountains in Italy who will likely never have been on a boat and they transpose it onto a chip.

Now when that's put into an electronic box people want to take it as fact.

Good navigators use all sources of information. The chartplotter is just one of them.

Relying on charts being up do date shows a lack of understanding and poor seamanship.