MCA & Flares

If an Eprib cost £50, latched onto a satellite within 5 minutes, lasted 10 years and had a 99.99999% deployment success rate would we be arguing about this.

If the Eprib regularly transmitted its GPS co-ordinates, why would the rescue servies need lights or smoke ?

Pyrotechnics have served sailors well over the centuaries, but we can now develop less hazardous, more precise alternatives.
 
Re: MCA & Flares

This is another recent development
'Seahouses Lifeboat Station has traditionally over recent years, fired two firework type rockets, similar to RNLI maroons, at 11am on 11th November, and again at 2 minutes after 11am, to mark the two minute silence for Remembrance Day. This year the local authority could not obtain these fireworks, and asked the RNLI if they could fire two RNLI Maroons in their place. At Seahouses, two maroons which were at the end of their operational shelf life, were available, and the Lifeboat Operations Manager agreed to have these fired as requested by Berwick Borough Council, particularly as this was the 90th Remembrance Ceremony.



For Seahouses, this was probably the very last time the "Maroons" would be fired from the station, marking the end of a Lifeboat Tradition there.'
 
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Even though I will never carry flares I would never vote to 'force' other yotties not to.

I imagine most yotties (pro or anti) might vote that way.

What purpose has the poll?

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Exactly. I'm of the opinion that flares are ineffective and slightly risky compared to the many alternatives. However, if other people want to hang on to them that's their choice. I'm amazed anyone has really voted to 'force' other people not to carry them and I'd question the validity of the poll for a number of reasons.
 
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If an Eprib cost £50, latched onto a satellite within 5 minutes, lasted 10 years and had a 99.99999% deployment success rate would we be arguing about this.

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I still would. If I'm in trouble I want anyone who might be close at hand to help me (as I would do in return). The idea that someone in an office 50 miles away having registered a signal might perhpas get onto the lifeboats to come and rescue me is a bonus, but one I wouldn't have to depend on, especially because of the likely time delay.

To me it's a strange new way of thinking that seems to be taking hold to consider rescue to be solely the business of the 'emergency services'. It's OK to depend on the AA (or RAC if you prefer) to come to fix your car. You can afford to wait an hour for them to arrive while thousands of other drivers stream by. If your boat is on fire, sinking, or disabled and drifting towards danger you want help now, if not sooner.

When I paddle my kayak, I don't have the battery power or the space for some of the kit that some people seem to think of as essential (and the soimplicity is a large part of the appeal). Flares are a very reassuring bit of kit for me in the kayak or on my boat.

If pyrotechnics are so dangerous, why not ban fireworks? If not, lets just make appropriate arrangements for those who want to let off their old flares.
 
It's funny but I find the reliance on a 19th centuary communication mechanism strange.

How do you know the flares will work (you cannot test them), how do you know they will not injure you and make your predicament worse (has happen to a forumite, and happens on fireworks night), how do you know if anyone had seen them, how do you know if they had seen them that they would not simply ignore them (like the Titanic) ? If it is dark, do you know if they are expired ? do you dare use an expired one ? If you injured yourself using an expired one, would the insurance still cover you ? (the insurer tried to wriggle out of covering the forumite using an in date one)

For most of the 19th centuary, flares were the height of long range marine communication technology, but here we are with much better and safer options.

If your boat needed immediate attention, your first priority (according to the RYA training I was given) is to alert the rescue services, followed by deploying the appropriate safety equipment. Alerting local boats would to me seem to be a third priority, and that can be carried out using the radio, which in turn will provide good information about their willingness and ability to help, and by relay can cover a much greater area than a flare.

For the Kyak your mobile phone will be your best bet in most areas, surely the container you use to keep your flares dry has a similar capacity to a more helpful two way communication method ?

Finally, we are taught with fireworks to light them and then retire a goodly distance.......
 
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To me it's a strange new way of thinking that seems to be taking hold to consider rescue to be solely the business of the 'emergency services'.

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"Come, come, laddie! We can't have people acting on their own initiative and helping each other. Won't do at all. Absolutely unprofessional. Administratively inconvenient. for a start, how could they deal with the paperwork etc.? No, no, they're like children; we know what's best for them.

Anyway, now we don't have an empire full of fuzzy-wuzzies to boss around anymore, what are our administrators to do to justify their existence?"
 
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It's funny but I find the reliance on a 19th centuary communication mechanism strange.

How do you know the flares will work (you cannot test them), how do you know they will not injure you and make your predicament worse (has happen to a forumite, and happens on fireworks night), how do you know if anyone had seen them, how do you know if they had seen them that they would not simply ignore them (like the Titanic) ? If it is dark, do you know if they are expired ? do you dare use an expired one ? If you injured yourself using an expired one, would the insurance still cover you ? (the insurer tried to wriggle out of covering the forumite using an in date one)

For most of the 19th centuary, flares were the height of long range marine communication technology, but here we are with much better and safer options.

If your boat needed immediate attention, your first priority (according to the RYA training I was given) is to alert the rescue services, followed by deploying the appropriate safety equipment. Alerting local boats would to me seem to be a third priority, and that can be carried out using the radio, which in turn will provide good information about their willingness and ability to help, and by relay can cover a much greater area than a flare.

For the Kyak your mobile phone will be your best bet in most areas, surely the container you use to keep your flares dry has a similar capacity to a more helpful two way communication method ?

Finally, we are taught with fireworks to light them and then retire a goodly distance.......

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Sorry but that is the biggest load of b****s I have read in a long time ................ What a load of rubbish.
 
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It's funny but I find the reliance on a 19th centuary communication mechanism strange.

How do you know the flares will work (you cannot test them), how do you know they will not injure you and make your predicament worse (has happen to a forumite, and happens on fireworks night), how do you know if anyone had seen them, how do you know if they had seen them that they would not simply ignore them (like the Titanic) ? If it is dark, do you know if they are expired ? do you dare use an expired one ? If you injured yourself using an expired one, would the insurance still cover you ? (the insurer tried to wriggle out of covering the forumite using an in date one)

For most of the 19th centuary, flares were the height of long range marine communication technology, but here we are with much better and safer options.

If your boat needed immediate attention, your first priority (according to the RYA training I was given) is to alert the rescue services, followed by deploying the appropriate safety equipment. Alerting local boats would to me seem to be a third priority, and that can be carried out using the radio, which in turn will provide good information about their willingness and ability to help, and by relay can cover a much greater area than a flare.

For the Kyak your mobile phone will be your best bet in most areas, surely the container you use to keep your flares dry has a similar capacity to a more helpful two way communication method ?

Finally, we are taught with fireworks to light them and then retire a goodly distance.......

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Nothing much to add to that. It certainly sums up my views on flares.

Most of the post seems to be fact rather than opinion. Much of post is in the form of questions. Given this perhaps Refueler could explain specifically which bit he's claiming to be wrong and why?
 
"It's funny but I find the reliance on a 19th centuary communication mechanism strange."

But presumably you wouldn't mind relying on 19th century technology like the internal combustion engine (1806, possibly even pre 1800), or the radio telephone (1906). But what relevance does the age of a technology have? I often rely on ropes, clothes and fire, and they're all prehistoric (as are sails and floating hulls!).

"How do you know the flares will work (you cannot test them), "
I can't test EPIRBs either, but if I did have one I'd have just that - one. I carry about a dozen flares, so in the unlikely event of a failure I have spares.

"How do you know they will not injure you and make your predicament worse (has happen to a forumite, and happens on fireworks night). "
I don't, of course, but buying reputable brands, and taking simple precautions eliminates almost all of the risk.

"How do you know if anyone had seen them. How do you know if they had seen them that they would not simply ignore them (like the Titanic) ?"
I wouldn't until help arrived. Same with EPIRB!

"If it is dark, do you know if they are expired ?"
I don't understand the question.

"Do you dare use an expired one ? "
Yes. I recently let off four flares that expired 20 years ago (1989). They all worked fine. I keep more recent 'time expired' flares on board as back up for the in-date ones.

"If you injured yourself using an expired one, would the insurance still cover you ? (the insurer tried to wriggle out of covering the forumite using an in date one) "
If I am ever in a Mayday situation I doubt I will be worrying about my insurance cover.

"For most of the 19th centuary, flares were the height of long range marine communication technology, but here we are with much better and safer options."
No. We have additional options, each of which has advantages and disadvantages. Flares remain a valuable option highly suitable for some situations.

"If your boat needed immediate attention, your first priority (according to the RYA training I was given) is to alert the rescue services, followed by deploying the appropriate safety equipment. Alerting local boats would to me seem to be a third priority, and that can be carried out using the radio, which in turn will provide good information about their willingness and ability to help, and by relay can cover a much greater area than a flare."

I think you have misunderstood your training.

"For the Kayak your mobile phone will be your best bet in most areas, surely the container you use to keep your flares dry has a similar capacity to a more helpful two way communication method ?"
In the kayak I take a mobile phone, too, and a hand-held VHF. These rarely work under cliffs, where I often paddle. Note that even when I am upright in the kayak I am only just above sea level, and in almost any Mayday situation I would probably be in the water, so even in open water my signal is going to be very limited. A flare gets a visible signal well into the air, in sight of any mariners in the vicinity, and anyone on land in the vicinity, regardless of whether they have VHF or are listening.

"Finally, we are taught with fireworks to light them and then retire a goodly distance......."
Except sparklers and other hand held fireworks that, like flares, are designed to be held in the hand.
 
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"It's funny but I find the reliance on a 19th centuary communication mechanism strange."

[ QUOTE ]
But presumably you wouldn't mind relying on 19th century technology like the internal combustion engine (1806, possibly even pre 1800), or the radio telephone (1906). But what relevance does the age of a technology have? I often rely on ropes, clothes and fire, and they're all prehistoric (as are sails and floating hulls!).

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Rope, hulls, engines etc all work pretty much 100pc of the time. Flares don't.

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in the unlikely event of a failure I have spares.

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A flare is only successful when it communicates a position and the fact that you are in trouble to others. Simply going off is never enough. You simply can't predict if someone will see your flares and record an accurate position.

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I don't, of course, but buying reputable brands, and taking simple precautions eliminates almost all of the risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Last time I saw a flares demo everyone wore safety goggles, plus all thier oilies, there was a bucket of sand and three fire extinguishers on hand. Reasonable precautions maybe but not easy on a boat.

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I wouldn't until help arrived. Same with EPIRB!

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Mobile Phone, VHF?

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We have additional options,

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In your opinion flares are the basic method of long range emergency comunication, with the alternatives adding "additional functionality". That's your choice. But to some other people the order is probably reversed with VHF/EPIRB/Mobile being used first (probably all together). I suspect having communicated my position to rescuers and got a response I still wouldn't be letting off pyrotechnics.

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In the kayak I take a mobile phone, too, and a hand-held VHF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very wise.

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Except sparklers and other hand held fireworks that, like flares, are designed to be held in the hand.

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Yes, and how many people are injured by sparklers in th eUK every year? It's hundreds. How many people are injured by torches? A handheld flare has more potential for damage than a sparkler and you're using it on a heaving boat not on stable land.

IMHO flares shouldn't be banned (unless there's a better case than currently exists to ban them) but in my opinion they're not very useful compared to the alternatives.
 
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MCA has never had safety of small boaters at the heart of its policies. The key focus is managing/ reducing costs. That's why auxiliary watchers were abandoned in favour of VHF radio watch only. That's why they don't want to pay their staff reasonable wages. It's also why they don't want the hassle of dealing with a handful of old flares.

[/ QUOTE ]

You got it in one, Searush, all Govt Depts, regardless of function, regardless of circumstances, or of commercial logic/costings even have to reduce their overall budget year on year under the LEAN programme, and have done for nearly a decade now under GB @ No11 & No10.
Mr Cardy's background is in Charity Admin- notoriously 'lean'(and rightly so in that environment). Operational Areas- such as Compliance/Safety/Warfare/Health/Education are expensive and labour intensive(and rightly so in some ways). Therefore likes of Mr Cardy's mind set employed there(and elsewhere in SCS), not for value for money, but to reduce costs regardless.

Taxation Compliance is interesting as there, the yield per £1 of overall resource invested is well proven- last figs I saw(about 4-5 years ago now) were about 400% return minimum where real people employed, not IT.
Even there, year on year, cost reductions must be made, regardless of economic logic and falling yields.
If UK PLC were a real business, we'd be in trouble- massive cash outflows in all directions, no focus on billing & debt collection to maximise cash inflow, expensive subsidaries-Iraq, Afghanistan, Millenium Dome & other white elephant "Arts Projects' around UK, poorly sourced training and research programmes- Schools and higher/vocational education like Apprenticeships, medical & Blue SKy research...

Ahhh, I could go on ranting, the Flares/Cardy issue is just the small chancre in the groin that tells you (and UK PLC)you have a serious STD coursing throughout your body!

Oh, and I voted to keep Flares- if/when all other means go down(say dismasted, holed hull from mast, flooded batteries & cabin), I'll risk an in date(or out of date, come to that) pyro rather than I and or my Family drown/die.
Mind, from earlier flare threads, I now keep welders gloves and eyeshields by the pyros!
 
But presumably you wouldn't mind relying on 19th century technology like the internal combustion engine (1806, possibly even pre 1800), or the radio telephone (1906). But what relevance does the age of a technology have? I often rely on ropes, clothes and fire, and they're all prehistoric (as are sails and floating hulls!).

My point was (as you know) Flares were the main and possibly the only option in the 19th centuary if trying to summon assistance over a long distance, not that anything invented before 1900 is bad in some way. We have invented better and safer mechanisms since, but given your examples, are the water proof clothes of the 19th centuary your first choice in a storm or do you use modern materials, do you shun non hemp based ropes because they are not 19th centuary, do you have a coal fired stove on your boats, or do you use something more convenient ? Do you really use 19th centuary designed engines, where do you get spares for your magneto, do you use 19th centuary oils for your engine, having to decoke it so often must be a right pain. How long to the valves in your radio take to warm up ? Is your kyak a wooden one ? What is your spinnaker made of ?
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"I can't test EPIRBs either"

EPRIB's can come with self test diagnostic buttons, and I can get an EPRIB serviced, and checked out by a professional, who can do a test transmission, but you cannot do that with a flare
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"I don't, of course, but buying reputable brands, and taking simple precautions eliminates almost all of the risk."

Explain that to the forumite who was nearly killed doing a shore based test in optimum conditions using the most popular brand. If you can eliminate all the risks so easily, why is the disposal on land in optimum conditions becoming so difficult ?
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"How do you know if anyone had seen them. How do you know if they had seen them that they would not simply ignore them (like the Titanic) ?"
I wouldn't until help arrived. Same with EPIRB!

You would have a much better chance with an EPRIB, there are people paid to monitor the transmission, unlike a flare. But the radio makes a much better secondary mechanism than a flare also, because it gives feedback.
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"If it is dark, do you know if they are expired ?"
I don't understand the question.

If you are injured by an out of date flare, the insurance have a nice get out clause. I agree it is not a primary concern, but none the less, why add risk when you don't need to.
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"If you injured yourself using an expired one, would the insurance still cover you ? (the insurer tried to wriggle out of covering the forumite using an in date one) "
If I am ever in a Mayday situation I doubt I will be worrying about my insurance cover.

But why risk making things worse with a communication mechanism that can kill you ?
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I think you have misunderstood your training

So you are saying that in an emergency the first thing to do is NOT to fix your position and inform the emergency services. What was your training then ?
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"For the Kayak your mobile phone will be your best bet in most areas, surely the container you use to keep your flares dry has a similar capacity to a more helpful two way communication method ?"
In the kayak I take a mobile phone, too, and a hand-held VHF. These rarely work under cliffs, where I often paddle. Note that even when I am upright in the kayak I am only just above sea level, and in almost any Mayday situation I would probably be in the water, so even in open water my signal is going to be very limited. A flare gets a visible signal well into the air, in sight of any mariners in the vicinity, and anyone on land in the vicinity, regardless of whether they have VHF or are listening.

If you are in the water, under a cliff, then why not wade / swim ashore ? If that is not the safe route, then you will need to swim out to sea anyway, in which case the radio / mobile will kick in. In the meantime the hydro static release EPRIB would have done it's job.
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"Finally, we are taught with fireworks to light them and then retire a goodly distance......."
Except sparklers and other hand held fireworks that, like flares, are designed to be held in the hand.

Are you really equating a sparkler to a rocket that will launch a flare hundreds of meters above your cliff ? If so, why not take sparkers instead, I agree the risks of a sparkler are much less /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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On a personal note, thanks for using reason logic rather than abusive language, one of the main benefits of the forum is to generate debate and challenge assumptions, I started with a pack of flares because that is what the RYA instructor told me to, and at that point I had to rely on the experience of others.
However a post a few weeks ago challenged my assumptions on what I was carrying and I am going to upgrade this season.

I am not going join a ban the flare pressure group, if you wish to use them, then that is absolutely fine with me, I am simply arguing that there are alternatives which in many cases will give certain advantages.
 
Reasoned argument ? Why when the subject IMHO is a non-starter anyway - flares work, they don't need electricity, they work wet, dry, hot, cold, whatever.

If my life is in danger of being lost - a burnt hand from a flare is price I'm willing to pay.

I am not against any form of equipment that can save a life - I am for all of them. But I do not believe limiting or rejecting one is the answer.

A parachute flare fired of and seen by another vessel / person is unmistakeable signal calling for help.

One life saved is priceless - simple.

Unfortunately it appears that the Poll in the article is not by MCA - but by the magazine carrying the article. So value ? Like most things Govt run - MCA will probably ignore it.
 
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One life saved is priceless - simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you 100% on the usefulness of flares but what you say about lives being priceless just ain't so.

My life is priceless to me and valuable [I hope!] to my family and friends but "officialdom" feels under no obligation to preserve it at all costs. If it did there would be a better Health Service, better roads, better policing etc.
 
Not sure about them working in the wet, why do you need to keep them in a water tight container ?

Most of your arguments (they have always worked so why not use them, I'll accept the risk relative to the emergency) do not provide (to me) a case to keep them in preference to more modern less hazardous solutions.

Are you sticking with them because they are Better than the alternatives, or is it simply because you always have.

I was in the latter category and have changed my view for the reasons given, and I have yet to find an example where the newer technology is not better. Perhaps you will provide one ?

There are many cases where flares have been ignored, the Titanic being the most obvious where two ships ignored them. Indeed had the Titanic not used it's wireless transmissions, there would have been even more casualties.

I agree respecting the risks of devices powered by electricity, but you don't carry a single flare do you ? so why have a single electrically powered safety device ?
 
How heated the discussion gets, it really flares up!

Given the equipment I carry, the flares are probably going to be the last to be deployed, I'd even try my mobile phone before donning my gardening gloves and grabbing a flare.

Why leap to the EPIRB/PLB as the "alternative" to flares. Whatever happened to the GMDSS philosophy? Dear old VHF is my first choice of aid.
 
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