Market expectations changing over time

[Tranona]

There is a steady stream of threads on subjects such as

How are prices set for used boats?
Which sorts of boats hold value over time?
Is it better to buy an older boat and refit or a newer boat ready to go?

In May 2002 PBO there was a used boat test of a 12 year old Sadler 34. The buyer chose it in preference to a new boat of similar size, spending by his own admission more on purchase and refit than a new boat of similar size and spec (somewhere around £60k+). In discussing the reasoning the tester slammed new boats to quote

"After all, some of the new offerings are built down to such a price that it is hard to imagine them still being sought after in the 2010s; how long you can't help wondering, will some of them remain serviceable"

Fast forward to 2024 and you can buy a top notch late 80s Sadler 34 for around £25k - but a similar size AWB from the early 2000s will be around £40k

Great for people who like Sadler 34s, but suggests they are in a minority.

 

[mrming]

I was having this conversation at the weekend after some friends with young kids and good jobs paid £22k for a tired 80s 10m boat. They’ll end up paying that again (and maybe more) over the next few years to get it into good shape.

Our conclusion was they should have borrowed the extra £30-40k or so to buy a much newer boat.

Unless you really like older designs (which some do, and fair enough), I think the only real reasons to buy an older boat are:
- You don’t have spare capital, don’t want to borrow and like doing boat jobs
- You want to sneak a boat into the family finances “under the radar” and pay for it over time

And I say this as the owner of a 1987 Fulmar which I’m very happy with.

 

[Stemar]

- You want to sneak a boat into the family finances “under the radar” and pay for it over time

This, IMO, is the only reason for buying a project boat. It's usually possible to do a minimum to get sailing, then upgrade as you go. It doesn't cost any less, but you spread the cost, and you end up with a boat you know inside out.

Exception made for classics that are worthy of restoration regardless of cost, but that requires a particular kind of nutter - Looking at you Leo

 

[jlavery]

it's about hitting the sweet spot along the spectrum of "good as new" to "project boat". Also of course some designs attract higher prices even when older.

We went for an 88 Sweden 36 4 years ago not a project in any way, but we've still spent £15,000 on "capital" costs (as oppose to "running costs" which should be accounted for separately). We're extremely happy with her.

As usual, the balance is "pay a lot less and spend less/no time sailing, pay more and use the boat!". Also, "do you want a poky, slow, tired boat, or a better, slightly newer one?"

 

[benjenbav]

New, old or in-between; objectively you will be throwing money away.

But, factor in the magic of boat-ownership and suddenly you might have a live proposition on your hands.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I recently went on a boat hunting weekend and looked at numerous boats from all the major production boat manufacturers. Beneteau, Bavaria, Dufour, Elan, Jeanneau and Hanse ... I was looking for an ex-charter boat, younger than 10 years old, and in the 42-45ft range. This was my observation ...

They have all got charter scars, on the gelcoat, the interior joinery, and anywhere the errant charter guest can access. Scruffy would be the best way to describe them, some more so than others. The one thing I could not get away from was the interior joinery, which in every case was not as solid or as hard wearing as the mahogany interior of my old Bavaria 36 from 1999. I saw bent hinges, broken retaining strops, screws that had loosened, peeling edges on laminate, and swollen/splitting edges where it has been regularly exposed to moisture - mostly in the heads or round the sink in the galley. Fit and finish was OK but not in the same league as something you might find in a Hallberg Rassy.

In an 80s boat, I've seen far worse, but that's because they are far older, discoloured wood, water staining, peeling varnish and veneer, not to mention rot ... but I have the feeling you could strip the interior of an 80s boat back to bare wood and re-finish it - provided it hadn't started to rot. In a modern boat it will be a case of replacement of the interior when it gets to the same level of disrepair.

I understand that the move towards interior finishes like ALPI has a lot to do with the availability of hardwoods and the cost, but unless they come up with a better solution I think the longevity of the interiors will be a problem in the future. I do think however, that this is the only real problem with modern boats.

The exteriors are better than 80s equivalents, the resins are better, they are more resistant to absorbing water, all the equipment is standard anyway, Selden, Lewmar, etc. etc. ... so I didn't have a problem with the hull, the deck hardware, or the general exterior of the boats - in fact they are far more spacious and better thought out than their predecessors IMO . and at least screw-on teak decking is a thing of the past. Modern boats also seem better in terms of keeping the water outside the boat - with almost all the boats I saw having dry bilges with dust and fluff blowing around in them - but this may be age related and as all the sealing starts to age, perhaps they will also end up with dank and smelly interiors like their predecessors.

The move towards automation and modern design methods means things like strengthening mast supports, adding strengthening to rig attachment points, very large areas of non-compartmentalised balsa core, laminated in and inaccessible chainplates, or teak screwed directly into balsa cored decks are a thing of the past. Also the move from chopped glass strand to machine-cut woven matting is a huge improvement. I know from the automotive industry that a well-controlled build process is just as important as the design if you want a quality product. Hand-made boats are often touted as being better quality, but this is a myth based on the assumption that everyone that touches the boat is a dedicated and conscientious craftsman who never has a bad day or forgets something.

As already mentioned in other threads, I landed somewhere in the middle with my eventual purchase, a Bavaria from 2008 with a mahogany interior and a proper chart-table (I lament the demise of the chart table). So I definitely prefer boats from the 21st century compared to the 20th but I see why the modern interiors come in for a lot of criticism.

The other issue is natural wastage, as boats get cheaper with age, they are bought by people with smaller maintenance budgets, so they gradually get into disrepair or get bodged - this all takes its toll over time. Add to that the inevitable damage and loss, with insurance companies less and less willing to repair older, cheaper boats, and the number of well founded older boats is only decreasing with time.

There will always be the odd gem from last century that has made it unscathed to the present day, but they are far and away the exceptions, and rare as hens teeth.

 

[Mark-1]

In May 2002 ...

"After all, some of the new offerings are built down to such a price that it is hard to imagine them still being sought after in the 2010s; how long you can't help wondering, will some of them remain serviceable"

Yeah. I saw a Bavaria Match 35 in the Medina this weekend and smiled. I think the bad tempered debates of a couple of decades ago have been conclusively settled.

 

[Concerto]

If you choose wisely there are some boats that will remain popular and hold their value - provided they are well maintained. To do this is certainly time consuming and can be expensive. When I was looking in 2013, I could have ordered a brand new 32ft yacht, but I do not like the construction methods and the hull shapes. Ultimately I bought a tired but well maintained 1980 Westerly Fulmar. Since then I have improved her to almost a new condition. It has been a lot of hard work and lots of money. It is nearly complete and I know I will never get what I spent on her when I eventually sell her. However it has only cost me about a third of what the new boat would have cost, allowing me to invest the balance. The money earned from one investment has paid almost half the cost of improvements. Also I have a boat that has improved safety features, over sized self tailing winches, added a fridge, presssurised hot and cold water with a shower, stripped the interior woodwork and relacquered, new upholstry, replaced some headlining, etc., etc., etc. The boat is exactly as I want it. She was at the 2021 Southampton Boat Show. Finally I also sail her. in 2022 I went round the very top of Britain singlehanded. Currently I am in Ipswich on part of my final cruise on the East Coast before she moves to North Wales in October. Look in my signature at my About Me web page for lots of links to mainenance and sailing including a number of videos.

Behind the scenes I have assisted 8 people buy Fulmars (including mrming). Helped many other boat owners with advice and tips on how to do jobs. I feel this is all part of helping others improve their boating knowledge from someone who has done lots of things with boats. Without passing this knowledge on, sailing and boat mainenance would decline. In my lifetime I have seen the decline in wooden boat building, the rise and fall of British boat building, and the increase of factory production to minimise cost and maximise customer's perceived appeal. If my Fulmar was built today using the same materials and methods, you would certainly be buying a new 40 footer instead. If you are looking for a proper wooded interior, it will cost. My boat is nearly 44 years old and with mainenance should be able to double its life. Will the boats of this century last as long? I doubt it. Baggywinkle has mentioned many of the problems with modern interiors, but there is one major problem that may be the demise of many modern boats. Bonded in hull windows are going to start failing over the next couple of decades. They are currently the biggest warranty problem for many manufacturers straight after first launching. My prediction will be there will be a sinking caused by a faulty window leaking badly or worse still, popping out. This could be easily solved if mechanical fixings (bolts) were used as well. There are plenty of boat owners who will say this will never happen, but you have difficulty assessing whether a glue seal is just about to give way.

Owning a boat of any age or size costs. This something we have to accept to enjoy our sport. Recently a lady who was doing a comptent crew course asked how much did it cost to keep a boat. How long is a piece of string? I started talking about berthing, insurance,etc. When I mentioned lift out and antifouling, she stopped me to ask what was antifouling. She wanted to get on the learing curve for sailing and will be one of the new people to join our ranks and probably to become an owner in the future. We all make our own choices of boat, old or new, and hopefully we never have any major problems, but problems can occur at any time in the life of a boat.

 

[Supertramp]

While I respect Tranona's experience and analysis I think it over simplifies boats and owners.

There are owners who really want that "as new" feel to their boat and there are others who want it to show the trophies of use and the modifications and additions made through experience. There are owners who really don't want to fiddle with stuff and just want it to work as designed and there are others who are not happy unless they know every inch and can vouch for every splice. Others want to go fast, others want to entertain, others want to voyage.

And when it comes to boats there is much more design variety than Sadler vs Bavaria. Plus the difference in quality between North European premium brands versus charter market models.

The analysis that all boats cost unless you are willing to neglect them is right. You will either pay in maintenance and repair or depreciation, or both.

That said, I detect that owner expectations of what their boat can deliver is increasing, as it is in cars, houses, holidays etc. That affects layouts, appearrance and condition. Meeting those expectations is about buying new or well maintained used and the market will reflect it.

And there will remain those who simply enjoy the process of keeping a boat in good shape, taking pride in its strengths and design and finding a way to do it within their means.

I just returned from a most enjoyable cruise in Scotland, to places I have not been for over 45 years. What struck me was the size of boats - my 36 ft was often the smallest boat in an anchorage, and at 35 years old, one of the oldest. And even in May there were far more boats than I ever remember. Boat ownership has certainly evolved in my lifetime.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

... What struck me was the size of boats - my 36 ft was often the smallest boat in an anchorage ...

Indeed, my 41' from '74 is tiny against new 40 footers these days, go up to 45' and it is like comparing my boat to a 60'er from '70s.

The point in the OPs post that the new high volume hull, wide beam style, production boats have lasted I think is important. I think it becomes very stark when adding in today's costs for materials and labour, or time if DIYing. The final cost of my refurbishment was significant and the cost benefit does not stack up when compared with even a newer boat.

My boat when new in 74 was about £35k, or £424k in today's money. I can buy a Bavaria 34, with more cabins, today new for £230k, so todays yachts are far better value. One advantage buying old but serviceable boats is that the cost of upgrade can be spread over a few years. In my case I paid £47k for my boat in 2008 (£78k now) + another £40k over about 15 years (about £54k now) and I have a solid, well maintained, good boat, but valued around £60k tops. That suited my cash flow over the years and apart from 3 years on the hard, I have sailed the boat all that time. Personally I don't think it was worth the spend compared to new, but I was not in a position to save to buy as paid for kids education and then university, MSc, so it was an affordable way on the water for me.

I don't have figures what a 40 odd foot Bavaria back in 2008 would have cost new or second hand. I am likely going to buy either a nearly new Bavaria 34 or new, to replace my boat in the next year or so as retirement looms, hence I know the cost at the moment as I look at options. I am not going down an old boat road again, especially on a pension.

 

[Supertramp]

When I started sailing in the 60's my father bought a new Westerly 22 (the old curvy one). Although small, it had more room inside than longer, wooden boats such as folk boats, South Coast one designs etc. and even some 30 footers. Today's boats continue the revolution.

I got to see on board a new Sirius 35 which is a modern example of a pilothouse yacht. I was very impressed with the design, the finish and the fact that it does everything my boat (Cromarty 36) does but better. When I add the repairs I have made to my purchase cost I am nowhere near the new cost of a boat like that. So I do think that old boats will have a future when they offer access to sailing experiences that are otherwise financially out of reach.

 

[Tranona]

I suppose the point I was trying to make was not whether buying an older boat and keeping it up to scratch was a viable strategy financially - having done it I know the answer is no, particularly now rather than 20 years ago. Rather that the "test" 20 years ago reflected the idea that modern boats were rubbish would not last and nobody would want them in the future. The "market" says otherwise, just as it did in the 1990- 2000s when the old went out and new came in. The Sadler and similar like the Fulmar - desirable in the day were selling in the 45-50k range in 2002, when a Bavaria 34 was £55k basic £65k fully specced above the level of older boats. Fulmars are now less than £20k Sadlers a bit more - and most will have had expensive refits and engines along the way. 34' AWBs are over £40k and in most cases have not needed new engines or indeed much in the way of major refits.

You can always find examples of where an older boat suits needs better (and do the man maths to support it!), but the "market" sets prices that reflect what the average buyer is prepared to pay, not what happens at the fringes and current asking prices reflect what today's buyers preferences are.

 

[Tranona]

I don't have figures what a 40 odd foot Bavaria back in 2008 would have cost new or second hand. I am likely going to buy either a nearly new Bavaria 34 or new, to replace my boat in the next year or so as retirement looms, hence I know the cost at the moment as I look at options. I am not going down an old boat road again, especially on a pension.

I fear you have missed the boat (sorry for the pun). In retrospect the optimum time to buy a new boat was 2013-6. 2008-12 were poor years for sales post financial crash as not only were there few boats sold, but many (thinking of Bavaria in particular) were not very good designs or as well put together as before and particularly after. The Farr designs that started coming in around 2010 were much better, particularly after the factory took over the detail design. The 33 and 37 from 2013 on were arguably the best. My 33 I bought made to order in 2015 cost just over £100k. I had it for over 5 years and almost nothing went wrong. It was like a new boat when I sold it for over £90k. A current 34 (essentially the same boat) would be well over double that to the same spec.

Just like you I bought the boat for my retirement at a point where I thought I would only have a few years left and wanted to just enjoy sailing and no boat fixing. It was the best thing I did and was an absolute joy to own. As it turned out thanks to advanced medicine and a new kidney I am still here and decided during lockdown that I really needed one last project to keep me busy so bought the old boat of my dreams. Not good financially but I have enjoyed doing it and that is all that matters to me!

 

[benjenbav]

I fear you have missed the boat (sorry for the pun). In retrospect the optimum time to buy a new boat was 2013-6. 2008-12 were poor years for sales post financial crash as not only were there few boats sold, but many (thinking of Bavaria in particular) were not very good designs or as well put together as before and particularly after. The Farr designs that started coming in around 2010 were much better, particularly after the factory took over the detail design. The 33 and 37 from 2013 on were arguably the best. My 33 I bought made to order in 2015 cost just over £100k. I had it for over 5 years and almost nothing went wrong. It was like a new boat when I sold it for over £90k. A current 34 (essentially the same boat) would be well over double that to the same spec.

Just like you I bought the boat for my retirement at a point where I thought I would only have a few years left and wanted to just enjoy sailing and no boat fixing. It was the best thing I did and was an absolute joy to own. As it turned out thanks to advanced medicine and a new kidney I am still here and decided during lockdown that I really needed one last project to keep me busy so bought the old boat of my dreams. Not good financially but I have enjoyed doing it and that is all that matters to me!

I’m glad your health has proved more robust than you expected.

I had to smile when you mentioned the best years to buy a boat as 2013-16. Guess when I sold my last boat? And to cap it all, 10 years on, have I stopped taking an interest?
… Madness!

 

[mrming]

One interesting side point with 80s / early 90s boats is relatively small price delta between a “minter” and a mediocre or slightly tired example. If you can find one (and they do occasionally come up), an older boat where the owner has lavished care, attention and upgrades on it will often be priced around 20% more than the middling examples. However to get one of the middling examples up to that standard will typically cost 100% of the purchase price or more. So there can be a form of value there for the patient and careful buyer.

 

[geem]

There is another reason to buy old boats. There are very few new boats that are bluewater boats. The vast majority of new boats are aimed at the charter market or they are the 'owners version' but basically the same.
Our boat is built tough. encapsulated keel, skeg hung rudder, over sized deck gear, rig, mast. She is heavy but in the ocean she out performs modern boats of the same size. She can carry lots of gear and she is optimised for a small crew. She doesn't have the internal volume of a modern boat but that is part of the reason why she sails well, doesn't slam and is particularly fast in light winds with her large rig.
These boat simply don't exist new. Cost wasn't the issue when we were looking for a boat. 40,000nm later we wouldn't swap it for a new one.

 

[Mark-1]

There is another reason to buy old boats. There are very few new boats that are bluewater boats. The vast majority of new boats are aimed at the charter market or they are the 'owners version' but basically the same.
Our boat is built tough. encapsulated keel, skeg hung rudder, over sized deck gear, rig, mast. She is heavy but in the ocean she out performs modern boats of the same size. She can carry lots of gear and she is optimised for a small crew. She doesn't have the internal volume of a modern boat but that is part of the reason why she sails well, doesn't slam and is particularly fast in light winds with her large rig.
These boat simply don't exist new. Cost wasn't the issue when we were looking for a boat. 40,000nm later we wouldn't swap it for a new one.

Charter boats have a very hard life and go out in all weathers with people who want to maximise their (limited) time on the water and DGAF about putting wear and tear on the boat to achieve that. The idea that boats aimed at the charter market would be weaker is flawed.

For the last 20 years or so the vast majority of boats crossing oceans have been 'new boats'.

I'm sure older designs go way better to windward in a blow than modern designs because they have less volume and less freeboard. There's a trade off, of course, if your blue water sailing involves a lot of time anchored in nice places, at which point that volume starts to make a lot of sense!

Weight == strength? Does it? Really?

Kind of funny that the OP posts to effectively say the debate is settled and then...

 

[geem]

Charter boats have a very hard life and go out in all weathers with people who want to maximise their (limited) time on the water and DGAF about putting wear and tear on the boat to achieve that. The idea that boats aimed at the charter market would be weaker is flawed.

For the last 20 years or so the vast majority of boats crossing oceans have been 'new boats'.

I'm sure older designs go way better to windward in a blow than modern designs because they have less volume and less freeboard. There's a trade off, of course, if your blue water sailing involves a lot of time anchored in nice places, at which point that volume starts to make a lot of sense!

Weight == strength? Does it? Really?

Kind of funny that the OP posts to effectively say the debate is settled and then...

You miss quote me. Our hull is foam core composite. The keel is 6 t of lead. The boat is far, far stronger then a modern equivalent. The hull deck joint is monocoque. There is no joint as such. Same for the keel. Everything is glassed together so no point for water ingress. The sides of the hull have a bumper rail with stainless steel capping. Internally, there is a huge longitudinal stringer behind the bumper rail to reinforce it. We have walk in engine room with headroom, and a work bench.
The point I was making is that a boat of this type cannot be purchased now. So its not always about cost comparison. Money wasn't the issue.
We wanted a boat thst could take two people anywhere in safety and deal with poor weather. Being 44ft, we have more than enough room so the huge volume of modern hulls is of no interest. At anchor we roll far less than any modern hull design. Comfort at anchor is not just about having a wide arsed hull.

 

[flaming]

You miss quote me. Our hull is foam core composite. The keel is 6 t of lead. The boat is far, far stronger then a modern equivalent. The hull deck joint is monocoque. There is no joint as such. Same for the keel. Everything is glassed together so no point for water ingress. The sides of the hull have a bumper rail with stainless steel capping. Internally, there is a huge longitudinal stringer behind the bumper rail to reinforce it. We have walk in engine room with headroom, and a work bench.
The point I was making is that a boat of this type cannot be purchased now. So its not always about cost comparison. Money wasn't the issue.
We wanted a boat thst could take two people anywhere in safety and deal with poor weather. Being 44ft, we have more than enough room so the huge volume of modern hulls is of no interest. At anchor we roll far less than any modern hull design. Comfort at anchor is not just about having a wide arsed hull.

All of this is great. However the thread is about market expectations, and the yard that made your boat went bust.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I fear you have missed the boat (sorry for the pun). In retrospect the optimum time to buy a new boat was 2013-6. 2008-12 were poor years for sales post financial crash ...

No boat missed as it is all relative. I am on my 8th bought home. All bought and sold when needs must (different job locations) and not based on optimum market dynamics. It is the same with boat ownership, not market driven for me, driven by a want to have a newer boat as I retire, with a cost bracket I can afford, of course.