Market expectations changing over time

[geem]

.........

A lot of that is due to three changes. First saildrives or Volvo seals for shaft drives which means that fluid in bilges is rare, second generally better (but not perfect) window and hatches, and third the use of plastic tanks and domestic style hoses and connectors for fresh water systems. This means no damp and mouldy interiors and dry engine compartments under solid cockpit floors.

I don't see that. Any boat can retrofit a better stern seal than the 50 year old stuffing gland that dripped. Drive legs have there own failures. We see so many drive legs remove in boatyards across the Caribbean due to failure.
Our friends Jeanneau 45 deck saloon and many more are having major problems with glued in windows that are failing. All these curved windows are a leak just waiting to happen. It does remind me of all the Moodys we see with tape over the aluminium famed windows though.
If you go to Trinidad for the summer it doesn't matter what boat you have. You will have a damp and mouldy interior. Ditto Guatemala. The solution there is dehumidifiers and aircon. Not really much different to the UK. When it's hot and humid mould will grow.

 

[geem]

My concern about the market for multihulls is what will happen to all the charter versions when they get retired. Just an educated guess but with mono AWBs maybe I in 3 is sold as a charter boat whereas suspect for multihulls the proportion is the opposite 2 out of 3 to charter. Are there enough private buyers to absorb this many?

Catamarans are still in huge demand. There are still long waiting lists for new ones. I think there is more than enough people keen to get their hands on an ex charter cat. U blame the Utube channels doing the sell up and live on a boat thing. People are attracted by the condo-cats similarity to living in a house.

 

[Tranona]

.........
I don't see that. Any boat can retrofit a better stern seal than the 50 year old stuffing gland that dripped. Drive legs have there own failures. We see so many drive legs remove in boatyards across the Caribbean due to failure.
Our friends Jeanneau 45 deck saloon and many more are having major problems with glued in windows that are failing. All these curved windows are a leak just waiting to happen. It does remind me of all the Moodys we see with tape over the aluminium famed windows though.
If you go to Trinidad for the summer it doesn't matter what boat you have. You will have a damp and mouldy interior. Ditto Guatemala. The solution there is dehumidifiers and aircon. Not really much different to the UK. When it's hot and humid mould will grow.

You are seeing things that you see (or hear about), not what is seen in the UK and Europe and NOT the tropics as I have no recent experience of that type of environment. I was responding to a comment about boats observed here and giving a suggestion as to why. Remember the comments I made initially were about everyday boats in the UK and it does not take much to see photos of the insides of pre 2000 UK built boats with dirty damp bilges, rotted bulkheads, water stained cabin sides and dirty oily rusty engines, rusted out mild steel tanks and so on. Compare with AWBs with spotless. I said nothing about saildrive failures and again what you see is simply not what is seen in Europe. In the 20 years I owned Bavarias I had 4 significant leaks, 2 from failed muffler joints (one on each boat) one from a failed weld on a stainless water tank and one from a loose freshwater fitting to the transom shower. The bilge pump on the first (the charter boat) seized from lack of use.

You may well be right about glued in windows, but again not my experience and the focus of my initial post is based on 2002 using UK examples and data and the fact remains that AWBs from 20-30 years ago have survived very well and command good prices in both the UK and Europe.

So, while your observations as to what you might see are interesting they have little relevance to us in the UK - but might of course be for any body reading this thinking of joining you out there.

 

[Sea Change]

You may well be right about glued in windows,

It's a known problem on certain Jeanneau DS models.

 

[doris]

There are any number of small yards building fast cruising boats. JPK, Pogo, RM, Neo etc etc. And a bunch of small yards tooling up to make scow boats for ocean sailing.

Garcia's smallest boat is a 45 that was £660k as tested by YM in 2014. God only knows how much that would be now.
Garcia Exploration 45 - Yachting Monthly review

The same size JPK, equipped for an Atlantic circuit is less than half as much.
JPK 45 boat test: Performance cruiser provides memorable enjoyment

I think your boat is great, truly. And that Garcia is a very interesting boat. And I absolutely get the appeal, but the reality is that boats like that simply aren't being made any more, at least not in any meaningful numbers. With that sort of price tag you can see why.
Meanwhile JPK and Pogo are churning out 50+ hulls a year each and have multi year waiting lists. Then you see that mainstream "quality" builders like HR etc are heading towards lighter and faster with every launch.

If you look forward 15-20 years from now, the heavy "solid traditional" cruising boats like yours will be either extremely rare, or 40+ years old. It will take a very particular person to decide that refitting a 40 year old boat like yours is a better bet for them than buying a 10-15 year old boat of the type people are buying to cruise now.

Above all, the likes of JPK, Pogo and maybe RM are building boats that are seriously exciting, get the blood flowing and are very inspirational at wallet opening.
A 3l Ford Granada Ghia would take you anywhere, quickly and comfortably, but without any semblance of a buzz. The above mentioned manufacturers give one a massive reason to get out of bed in the morning and shout to the heavens. They do not build caravans even though one will sleep on board very comfortably.
Don’t ask me how I know!

 

[geem]

You are seeing things that you see (or hear about), not what is seen in the UK and Europe and NOT the tropics as I have no recent experience of that type of environment. I was responding to a comment about boats observed here and giving a suggestion as to why. Remember the comments I made initially were about everyday boats in the UK and it does not take much to see photos of the insides of pre 2000 UK built boats with dirty damp bilges, rotted bulkheads, water stained cabin sides and dirty oily rusty engines, rusted out mild steel tanks and so on. Compare with AWBs with spotless. I said nothing about saildrive failures and again what you see is simply not what is seen in Europe. In the 20 years I owned Bavarias I had 4 significant leaks, 2 from failed muffler joints (one on each boat) one from a failed weld on a stainless water tank and one from a loose freshwater fitting to the transom shower. The bilge pump on the first (the charter boat) seized from lack of use.

You may well be right about glued in windows, but again not my experience and the focus of my initial post is based on 2002 using UK examples and data and the fact remains that AWBs from 20-30 years ago have survived very well and command good prices in both the UK and Europe.

So, while your observations as to what you might see are interesting they have little relevance to us in the UK - but might of course be for any body reading this thinking of joining you out there.

I generally see boats that you see but the ones I see have done more miles and lived a harder life, by virtue of them reaching the Caribbean and beyond. The harder life tends to bring out the failures more noticeably, so I think it has some relevance.
The surveyor that surveyed our boat in 2021 for insurance told me that of the current new production boats were poor quality compared with the previous generation from those manufacturers. He didn't go into much detail but its not the first time I have heard it.
There is something to be said for the days when boats were built by skilled craftsmen not factory workers. I do love the Tally Ho videos. Nice to see proper boat building by skilled craftsmen although I would never want a wooden boat. I am glad there are still people around with the enthusiasm to keep those boats alive.

 

[justanothersailboat]

Geem, you sell the Trintella very well!

...it does not take much to see photos of the insides of pre 2000 UK built boats with dirty damp bilges, rotted bulkheads, water stained cabin sides and dirty oily rusty engines, rusted out mild steel tanks and so on. Compare with AWBs with spotless.

...and there are plenty of 1980ish boats that have none of those problems, once you look past the completely tragic ones that clutter up boat sales pages out of all proportion to boats that actually sell.

I do get quite cross with people who let their boats get into that state. There's no need; the jobs that prevent that level of deterioration aren't the expensive jobs.

 

[Tranona]

It's a known problem on certain Jeanneau DS models.

It is indeed - and some Beneteaus that have compound curve windows. However that does not mean just because one specific model has a problem that it is endemic. There are thousands of boats with bonded on windows that do not leak. There are also thousands of older boats that DO have leaky windows because of poor design and construction. This forum (or PBO) has a steady stream of requests on how to fix leaking windows on older UK built built boats, there are regular articles on the subject in the mags and at least 2 companies in the UK make a good living out of rebuilding boat windows. No sign of anybody specialising in replacing bonded windows yet even though they have been used in various forms for over 20 years.

 

[Tranona]

.........
I don't see that. Any boat can retrofit a better stern seal than the 50 year old stuffing gland that dripped. Drive legs have there own failures. We see so many drive legs remove in boatyards across the Caribbean due to failure.
Our friends Jeanneau 45 deck saloon and many more are having major problems with glued in windows that are failing. All these curved windows are a leak just waiting to happen. It does remind me of all the Moodys we see with tape over the aluminium famed windows though.
If you go to Trinidad for the summer it doesn't matter what boat you have. You will have a damp and mouldy interior. Ditto Guatemala. The solution there is dehumidifiers and aircon. Not really much different to the UK. When it's hot and humid mould will grow.

Can you give precise details of the failures you "see" of saildrive legs? Globally failure rates are extremely low and there are tens of thousands of such units in use many over 30 years old. I am not surprised you see boats with legs removed where you are - you will see exactly the same in any south coast UK boatyard because that is where boats go to get service work carried out. It does not mean the unit has "failed". In just the same way you will see boats with shafts and propellers removed, P brackets being repaired, cutless bearings replaced, or rudders dropped for bearings to be replaced. That is what happens to boats in boatyards.

I have said this before. It is unwise to draw general conclusions from small scale observations - and you do this regularly mostly about things of which you disapprove or believe are inferior. It is difficult to take what you say seriously in the absence of any real facts.

BTW why are you talking about Trinidad when my comments about damp in boats were very specifically related to the UK? I have spent some time in Trinidad, as well as Africa and the Far east so am quite familiar with hot humid climates - but I live on the south coast of England and this thread was specifically about market conditions and relative prices of certain types of boats IN THE UK. Fortunately some posters have offered some very useful observations on the subject.

As an aside, given your confidence in your boat perhaps you have a view as to why one of its close cousins has been on the market since 2021 with steadily reducing asking price but has yet to find a buyer. Priced £30k less than I got for my Bavaria 33! I found it doing my research to underpin this thread. Seems to be a good example of the point I was making. Boats that were desirable 20 years ago are out of favour and values have fallen more rapidly than more modern production boats.
mcyachts.co.uk/boats-for-sale/victory-40/2508935

 

[geem]

Can you give precise details of the failures you "see" of saildrive legs? Globally failure rates are extremely low and there are tens of thousands of such units in use many over 30 years old. I am not surprised you see boats with legs removed where you are - you will see exactly the same in any south coast UK boatyard because that is where boats go to get service work carried out. It does not mean the unit has "failed". In just the same way you will see boats with shafts and propellers removed, P brackets being repaired, cutless bearings replaced, or rudders dropped for bearings to be replaced. That is what happens to boats in boatyards.

I have said this before. It is unwise to draw general conclusions from small scale observations - and you do this regularly mostly about things of which you disapprove or believe are inferior. It is difficult to take what you say seriously in the absence of any real facts.

BTW why are you talking about Trinidad when my comments about damp in boats were very specifically related to the UK? I have spent some time in Trinidad, as well as Africa and the Far east so am quite familiar with hot humid climates - but I live on the south coast of England and this thread was specifically about market conditions and relative prices of certain types of boats IN THE UK. Fortunately some posters have offered some very useful observations on the subject.

As an aside, given your confidence in your boat perhaps you have a view as to why one of its close cousins has been on the market since 2021 with steadily reducing asking price but has yet to find a buyer. Priced £30k less than I got for my Bavaria 33! I found it doing my research to underpin this thread. Seems to be a good example of the point I was making. Boats that were desirable 20 years ago are out of favour and values have fallen more rapidly than more modern production boats.
mcyachts.co.uk/boats-for-sale/victory-40/2508935

There are great examples of modern production boats and great classic sailing boats from the past. I dont have a problem with modern boats. There are some really nice boats that are perfect for the use they were designed for.
There are also some serious dogs from the past that don't deserve to be around today. There are lots of boats of all ages with known failures such as a certain Bavaria where the keels fell of, Westerly headlining panels, Lagoon bulkheads that fail, etc.
The reality is that somebody will always buy those boats if the price is right.
There is an old Moody slowly sinking in the harbour in Horta, Faial. The British owner owes the harbour authority thousand of Euros in unpaid harbour fees. The boat is worth about £20k. A Portuguese friend asked about buying it to turn it in to a workshop. The engish owner wants £100k.. Totally unrealistic and it will likely sink at the dock. A poorly neglected boat of any age will plummet in value. Not all owners see that.
Old neglected boats often sit in yards for ever as the optimistic owner who neglected it in his ownership can't see that it is worthless. Often those boats are nice boats but the cost of resurrection at their inflated asking price makes is unviable.
We didn't buy a new boat because I couldn't find anything that turned me on. If I was marina hoping around the south coast or in the Med, the choice would be huge but we are not doing that.
With regard to drive legs. They are additional gearbox that a shaft drive does not have. They have an external oil seal much like an outboard engine. A shaft drive doesn't have one of those. Discarded fishing gear wrapped around the stub shaft can be enough to damage the oil seal. Once water gets in, damage often occurs. In addition a shaft drive doesn't have a lump of aluminum under water trying to dissolve in sea water. I know you are happy with drive legs but they are not as robust as conventional shaft drive when doing long distance sailing. Fixing them in far off places is not always easy and it is often expensive. The drivel legs we see are not being serviced. They are being rebuilt with new gears, bearings and seals. This is expensive for both part and labour. Compare this with a cutlass bearing that I can change in less than 2 hours myself.
The point about Trinidad is all boats can have mould. It isn't a virtue of old boats. Any well cared for boat won't have mould growth. A modern boat that has been neglected with a window leak and water in the bilge is just as likely to get mould as an old boat.

 

[suffolklass]

Unless you really like older designs (which some do, and fair enough), I think the only real reasons to buy an older boat are:
- You don’t have spare capital, don’t want to borrow and like doing boat jobs

It's usually possible to do a minimum to get sailing, then upgrade as you go. It doesn't cost any less, but you spread the cost, and you end up with a boat you know inside out.

There must be a few people in this state, because boats we have been watching over the last year when not quite ready to buy have steadily (albeit slowly) gone under offer. I'd say the market at the moment in 1980s designs like Fulmars and Sadlers is slow and probably hugely disappointing for sellers, but it is still there (and we're loving the reduction in prices for Fulmars, no complaints here, we've got a couple in our sights if they don't sell before we have a chance to view!)

We're in exactly this position - unwilling to borrow to fund what is ultimately a bit of a luxury purchase, preferring to save up painstakingly to purchase a 30'+ 1980s boat, which we will purchase outright and over time maintain and improve. If we had more money would we buy a 2000s AWB? Probably. Will we be perfectly happy with a 1980s Fulmar or, at a bit more of a financial stretch, a Sadler 34? Absolutely. Yes, it'll take money for maintenance, but actually a lot of them have had new engines and sails relatively recently, so there is the chance of not having to do some of the bigger jobs for a while. The trick is finding one of the many people who are giving up sailing altogether and selling what was obviously their pride and joy, because then they've done all the work and looked after the boat really well.

Agreed that the 2000s AWB designs have stood the test of time though - they'll definitely be what the majority of people want in terms of internal layout and a nicer fit out, and very few people are doing the kind of terrifying ocean sailing that calls for something tougher. But at the lower end of the market, that £30-40k extra makes a big difference, so I think there will still be a few people like us who go for something cheaper!

 

[Sea Change]

Clearly the AWBs work well for your average boat owner.
I'll be a bit sad when the old ones are gone though. I don't really want to own a boat that can't be dried out on a wall, needs annual lift out to service the sail drive, has big open cabin spaces but very little storage or tankage, open transom aft cockpit with slappy sugar scoop, etc etc.
And I appreciate I'm in the minority so people like me don't set the market.

 

[Neeves]

Clearly the AWBs work well for your average boat owner.
I'll be a bit sad when the old ones are gone though. I don't really want to own a boat that can't be dried out on a wall, needs annual lift out to service the sail drive, has big open cabin spaces but very little storage or tankage, open transom aft cockpit with slappy sugar scoop, etc etc.
And I appreciate I'm in the minority so people like me don't set the market.

I think you need a catamaran.

You don't need a wall to dry out, just a bit of sand.

If you are slick you can service the sail drive between tides (and if you make a gasket you can seal the location of the sail drive and work as many tides as you like).

Big open cabin spaces - how big do you want.

Plenty of storage, but don't overfill - it destroys performance. Tankage, what you see is what you get. There are always compromises

Jonathan

 

[RivalRedwing]

My concern about the market for multihulls is what will happen to all the charter versions when they get retired. Just an educated guess but with mono AWBs maybe I in 3 is sold as a charter boat whereas suspect for multihulls the proportion is the opposite 2 out of 3 to charter. Are there enough private buyers to absorb this many?

Where to 'park' them might become a challenge too

 

[geem]

Where to 'park' them might become a challenge too

The market for cats isn't in the UK. The average boat size in the UK is quite small. It always surprises me when I return to the UK and see the average marina full of boats. My 44ft boat is considered small in the Caribbean but would be a reasonably large boat in the UK. UK marinas and lifting facilities are not generally set up to handle large catamarans.

 

[Aja]

Within a mile or so of my mooring there are four immaculate Sadler 34's.

I know that up the west coast there will be many, many examples of marques such as Sadler, Westerly and Moody.

You don't see as many Mediterranean suited, large stern modern boats up here as you might expect. Certainly not in the numbers seen in the south coast or abroad.

Jeanneau brokerage at Largs may sell (say) 20 sailing boats per year, a drop in the ocean compared to what they shift in the Med.

 

[baart]

The true cost of keeping the old boat going or getting back to a decent condition can be seen in the recent Sailing Florence video. It is their full time job so they have plenty of time to work on the boat but from a financial point of view this kind of endeavour probably doesn't make much sense for an avarage UK sailor. An Oyster like theirs can be found for 40-50k, what they must have spent in manhours and in equipment is enormous. Anyone thinking of doing an old boat up should watch it. Their channel is great btw. When thinking about buying a bigger boat I initially wanted and older construction but I think I am an AWB convert now despite some compromises I can see. I am definitely looking at different boats now then 6 months ago.

 

[geem]

The true cost of keeping the old boat going or getting back to a decent condition can be seen in the recent Sailing Florence video. It is their full time job so they have plenty of time to work on the boat but from a financial point of view this kind of endeavour probably doesn't make much sense for an avarage UK sailor. An Oyster like theirs can be found for 40-50k, what they must have spent in manhours and in equipment is enormous. Anyone thinking of doing an old boat up should watch it. Their channel is great btw. When thinking about buying a bigger boat I initially wanted and older construction but I think I am an AWB convert now despite some compromises I can see. I am definitely looking at different boats now then 6 months ago.

But if you were to buy the boat that has had all the time and money spent in it, you are likely to get a very good boat for reasonable money. Eventually all boats will need this kind of attention. Its only a matter of time. What's new to day, is soon old

 

[baart]

Agreed, if someone else spends the money and time great, however there is no way you can get the money you spend on the refit back when selling. I am in the as new as you can afford now. Even if it means financing some of it.

 

[geem]

Agreed, if someone else spends the money and time great, however there is no way you can get the money you spend on the refit back when selling. I am in the as new as you can afford now. Even if it means financing some of it.

Getting the money back when selling doesn't matter to me. I didn't do it for the investment. I bought property for that. A far better investment than boats.

I have no marina fees. Not for the last 10 years. We live at anchor. What's the cost of 10 years marinas marina fees on the south coast? If you take that into account any loss on refurbishment projects is not significant.
I know we are in an unusual situation compared to most boat owners, but i have been retired for the last 10 years. Spending time refurbishing, modernising and fettling the boat between cruises is something I enjoy. She has every mod con of a brand new boat and some. By the time I give up sailing, I won't care about the value.
I want to enjoy my later years in life whilst I am fit enough to do it. I am not worried about boat values. I just want the boat that suits my lifestyle.
Edit: 60 next month