IPS vs Shafts

[MapisM]

Interesting to hear that eventually VP confirmed (sort of) that this is a classic IPS problem (ever heard of such sensor in a normal gearbox?!?).
Having seen how a just slightly emulsified oil looks and feels like (i.e., as viscous as normal oil to the touch, but just looking a bit opaque/milky), I'm a bit skeptic that this sensor can spot such potentially catastrophic issue as early as Mk1 eyeball, but... hey-ho!
All I know is that on the boat where I experienced this first hand, the VP dealer recommendation was to not even turn that engine on anymore before fixing it! Which means a liftout regardless of whether oil can be changed with the boat in the water or not, since changing the oil without replacing the shaft prop seal wouldn't be very clever, I reckon...

 

[Elessar]

Interesting to hear that eventually VP confirmed (sort of) that this is a classic IPS problem (ever heard of such sensor in a normal gearbox?!?).
Having seen how a just slightly emulsified oil looks and feels like (i.e., as viscous as normal oil to the touch, but just looking a bit opaque/milky), I'm a bit skeptic that this sensor can spot such potentially catastrophic issue as early as Mk1 eyeball, but... hey-ho!
All I know is that on the boat where I experienced this first hand, the VP dealer recommendation was to not even turn that engine on anymore before fixing it! Which means a liftout regardless of whether oil can be changed with the boat in the water or not, since changing the oil without replacing the shaft prop seal wouldn't be very clever, I reckon...

Especially as the oil is eye wateringly expensive.

 

[oldgit]

The Volvo Penta product data sheet and the Operator’s Manual for the D13-IPS 1350 both refer to a ”water in oil sensor” as standard equipment and say that the oil can be changed with the boat in the water.

Manuals say oil can now be drained while the boat is in the water. ?
However if the water in oil alarm has triggered, bit academic, assuming the now urgent need to lift boat and find out were the water is getting in.

 

[rafiki_]

My Sealine T46 ticks all those boxes with shaft drive.
The full width master cabin is behind the engines.
I don’t understand why aft cabin boats fell out of favour.
It’s great not to be able to hear your guests farting and bonking.

How very dare you!!!

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Oil in all IPS as far as I know can always be changed with boats in the water.
The problem is when you need to change the seal, which if I remember well in the first generation IPS500 and 600 it had to be change on 500 engine hours of two years.
So that needed a lift out.
Also if I remember well Volvo made a sort of a recall (if your Volvo mechanic loved you he would tell you about it) in the first generation seals.

It is possible (this is my theory) with all IPS boats, that in the water and taking out oil from the gearbox in the engine room you never manage to take it all (leaving like 10% of oil in the drive) so may be it is preferred for doing this service with the boat in dry-dock.

 

[Portofino]

Oil in all IPS as far as I know can always be changed with boats in the water.
The problem is when you need to change the seal, which if I remember well in the first generation IPS500 and 600 it had to be change on 500 engine hours of two years.
So that needed a lift out.
Also if I remember well Volvo made a sort of a recall (if your Volvo mechanic loved you he would tell you about it) in the first generation seals.

It is possible (this is my theory) with all IPS boats, that in the water and taking out oil from the gearbox in the engine room you never manage to take it all (leaving like 10% of oil in the drive) so may be it is preferred for doing this service with the boat in dry-dock.

Yep as well as replacing seals then pressure test it overnight in the yard to be more confident, or turned around less worried every time you arrived after a period of rest , the things not emulsified again .

 

[prinex]

Wouldn't be the apparently lower price on used IPS boats offset the costs?
If i spend 50k euro less on the same boat "because IPS" this would pay a lot of maintenance.
I guess it depends on usage? I clock 250 hours a year tons of overnight stays etc, for me having a quiter ride, more space in the boat is important - 10 feet more length here in Ligurian coast are 2-3K a year already, if I can get away with a 45 instead of 55 foot thanks to IPS that's also maintenance money.
Once the boats will be 30 y/o maybe will have less residual value but is not that a 30y/o boat will magically get 50k more due to shafts instead IPS.
Otherwise people would be running to buy boats with mechanical-only engines 30 years old because they are so much cheaper to maintain.
And they are, my trawler had a 6cyl deutz air-cooled and spent maybe 200 euro in parts over 10 years and 2000 hours. Also took half of the boat away for 80PS of power.

 

[oldgit]

To sum up .IPS
The Good.
Smoother and quieter ride at speed.
Improved economy at high speeds.
Extra useful interior hull space in many/most/all new boats.
Certainly appears to make some skippers more comfortable about manoeuvring in confined areas ( ie. just about any marina) .
Ride while underway , not a lot of difference, no better no worse.

The not so wonderful bit.
The constant and frequent fettling compared to shafts.
Any signs of pod distress must be dealt with immediately with a lift to prevent more serious and expensive problems .
Very little DIY possible.

 

[benjenbav]

To sum up .IPS
The Good.
Smoother and quieter ride at speed.
Improved economy at high speeds.
Extra useful interior hull space in many/most/all new boats.
Certainly appears to make some skippers more comfortable about manoeuvring in confined areas ( ie. just about any marina) .
Ride while underway , not a lot of difference, no better no worse.

The not so wonderful bit.
The constant and frequent fettling compared to shafts.
Any signs of pod distress must be dealt with immediately with a lift to prevent more serious and expensive problems .
Very little DIY possible.

That sounds fair. For many of us who’ve been dealing with boats for a long time the idea of maintenance defaulting to the engine/pod builder or its official suppliers rather than DIY or independent mechanic shops is difficult.

 

[volvopaul]

Oil in all IPS as far as I know can always be changed with boats in the water.
The problem is when you need to change the seal, which if I remember well in the first generation IPS500 and 600 it had to be change on 500 engine hours of two years.
So that needed a lift out.
Also if I remember well Volvo made a sort of a recall (if your Volvo mechanic loved you he would tell you about it) in the first generation seals.

It is possible (this is my theory) with all IPS boats, that in the water and taking out oil from the gearbox in the engine room you never manage to take it all (leaving like 10% of oil in the drive) so may be it is preferred for doing this service with the boat in dry-dock.

You cannot change the oil on the earlier model from inside the boat , and me being old school you never get the whole amount out the drive using the suction method , it’s the same with engines I have had in for strip down , I’ve run them up prior to removal to suck the oil out , for example on a 41/42/43/44/300 range there’s still a litre in the sump and the cooler is full .
I will admit I’ve yet to see one of the later units to come my way for service but that’s my opinion , plus you don’t get to remove and grease the prop shafts , inspect the lower drive units and check the props , plus the anodes if applicable.

 

[BruceK]

You cannot change the oil on the earlier model from inside the boat , and me being old school you never get the whole amount out the drive using the suction method , it’s the same with engines I have had in for strip down , I’ve run them up prior to removal to suck the oil out , for example on a 41/42/43/44/300 range there’s still a litre in the sump and the cooler is full .

In fairness your argument is nonsensical. Firstly in your 4 series engine range an annual oil exchange / 200 hrs average is so well within spec that really the 10% oil left makes no difference whatsoever and could still be considered good oil and the comparison is skewed unless you were also dealing with a blown head gasket or other means of water ingress into the engine oil at which point I'd agree you need to get all the oil out.
In so saying, provided you do not have water ingress into any drive, the ability to change from inside the boat at the sacrifice of a pint of oil or two still within spec given correct service scheduling, is not a real issue.

 

[Elessar]

To sum up .IPS
The Good.
Smoother and quieter ride at speed.
Improved economy at high speeds.
Extra useful interior hull space in many/most/all new boats.
Certainly appears to make some skippers more comfortable about manoeuvring in confined areas ( ie. just about any marina) .
Ride while underway , not a lot of difference, no better no worse.

The not so wonderful bit.
The constant and frequent fettling compared to shafts.
Any signs of pod distress must be dealt with immediately with a lift to prevent more serious and expensive problems .
Very little DIY possible.

Very fair and balanced set of observations - thank god it’s not a tent boat ?

 

[Switch]

Personally I prefer the gentle reliable precision of shafts, IPS rocks boat too much and too much jerking when manoeuvring. More power being deployed than would be necessary with shafts.

To be fair to IPS the 'jerking when maneuvering' is more down to the operator being over zealous with their inputs on the joystick. Gentle inputs provide a much smoother experience.

 

[Elessar]

To be fair to IPS the 'jerking when maneuvering' is more down to the operator being over zealous with their inputs on the joystick. Gentle inputs provide a much smoother experience.

Completely correct. IPS without using the joystick is actually better than shafts as I describe in #57.

The reason people overdo the joystick is that it has zero feedback and you’ve no idea what it has to do to the pods to make the boat do what you have demanded.
If it has to move a pod from one end to the other then it takes longer for the boat to react to your input. By then you've moved the joystick a bit more. Then it over reacts. Etc.

 

[MapisM]

The reason people overdo the joystick is that it has zero feedback and you’ve no idea what it has to do to the pods to make the boat do what you have demanded.
If it has to move a pod from one end to the other then it takes longer for the boat to react to your input. By then you've moved the joystick a bit more. Then it over reacts. Etc.

Spot on.

I always thought that there's a sort of vicious circle with the joystick: the reason why many folks love it is that they are unable/scared by maneuvering, and the joystick is a tool that makes the boat behave as similarly to a car as physically possible.
Consequently, they keep using it as they would in a videogame, without even bothering to understand how and why the boat reacts as she does.
And the more they get addicted to the joystick, the farther they get disconnected from any "normal" boat handling capacity - hence the vicious circle.

I witnessed an IPS 50 footer rolling to the point of risking to crunch a crew member's arm in between their own side rails and those of the boats already berthed on their sides, even if properly fendered.
The helmsman frantically moving the joystick from one side to another made me feel for those poor pods, rotating independently while constantly engaging/disengaging both forward and reverse, all in a matter of seconds.
In fact, as low as it is, their reliability is actually remarkable, all considered!

 

[Momac]

Among friends I have known greater issues with shaft drive than outdrive boats . But can honestly say I dont know anyone who owns a pod drive boat assuming we are excluding saildrives on yachts.
I have outdrives but if going bigger, which may never happen, I would prefer shaft drives all day long.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

To be fair IPS is not as bad as people say they are. IMO they are the less equivalent of stern drives on a large boat.
They are in reality a less big headache to stern drives (no steering or trim), but the costs become higher cause you are going into bigger engines and drives.
I know quite a few owners who today, after some five or more years down the line with IPS had trouble free boating.
Possibly one aspect is that they are much like stern drives less forgiving to shaft drives to servicing.

Many issues have been sorted since 2006 and the pod drives are an alternative to shaft drives.
We can accuse Volvo of making boaters the guinea pigs of all this, but would they be the first....
ZF did a similar thing with its pod drives, as did some boat builders with Advanced Construction techniques, or dometic electrical systems.

 

[oldgit]

Staring into a crystal ball in 2040 and 10 "careful" owners down the line .
Which is going to be simpler or less expensive to maintain or be economically worth fixing due to old age , when you are looking round for your next boat.




a previous brilliant concept taking advantage of modern materials and technology giving improved economy.

 

[Portofino]

Adding to OG s post ^^^ that’s whats missing on this thread ….the ability to differentiate old as per the OP s suggestion from new .It’s worth doing .Otherwise cling on to 70s car reliability and corrosion issues when discussing a cars .
A 70;s Datsun , Citroen or Alfa or a new ish 2015 or should it be 2017 Nissan , Alfa , Citroen or indeed back on topic IPS ?
You can’t start ( it’s not stopping folk with new ) a 20-10 or even 7 yrs IPS with something you can drop a £1M at a boat show and sail away ..comparing your experiences .

Then there’s due diligence.
Google “ Volvo Penta IPS problems “ I am not gonna regurgitate the disproportionate tales of woe , expensive and loss of boat time tales .Do you own research.Draw you own conclusions.

Then there’s an argument put by some “happy” owners on this forum , they own the bragging rights to comment and none owners comments , are somewhat devalued.
Well i have never been to prison either as well as own an IPs boat…….but I have a pretty good ie idea or enought background knowledge to arrive at the conclusion I don’t want to go best avoid .
To argue my view is weak because I need to experience prison is silly .I will endeavour to avoid prison and ips boats thank you .
Despite have never experienced either .

If you care ( I have ) to peruse some of the sites thrown up by the Google search I recommend .

One guy ends up saying something( which made me chuckle , so thought I would share it ( from memory )

“ IPS is the very same season the Germans lost the WW2 …they over complicated weapons like the V1 and V2 + others to the point of unreliability in the field “

If you strip out the within 7 sentences all arguments end up being Hitlers fault thingy ……the “ over complicated “ bit is bang on when comparing them to shaft drives .Which is what the OP s asking as a viable ownership prospect

I know 4 owners , 3 in La Nap up to 2012 version and one here in Loano a 2015 version ….all tales of woe .
3 used , one new .

But I don’t know 4 folks who have been to prison , but know enough to avoid it .

No hatred as suggested on other threads , just analysis and hopefully advise to the guy .

Remember I have said I would consider new with warranty and flip it when it ran out .

Any one know what suffix letter IPS are currently on ? …mid alphabet ish ??

 

[Portofino]

The very first link ( of many similar) to pop up from “ Volvo Penta IPs problems “

volvo penta ips 500 problems - Volvo Forums - Volvo Enthusiasts Forum