IPS vs Shafts

[Portofino]

Looking for something 40-45ft or so with two decent double cabins, decent saloon and galley, flybridge with space for decent size tender + sailing dinghy (lightweight but 4m long probably stacked under tender hanging out over stern), heating, air conditioning. Enough storage space for some e-bikes.
No need to go fast. Confortable for staying on board at anchor and cooking for a week at a time. Ideally with a boom for a flopper stopper for breaking the roll at some anchorages.

The closest to match to requirements at the moment is a Swift Trawler 44.

Admiral loves the central midships cabin on some IPS boats.

Take a look at this range Sciallino Sciallino 40 Fly Usato, Vendita Sciallino Sciallino 40 Fly, Annunci barche e Yacht Sciallino
They do a 45 as well
Also the Apeamarie range and Menorquin ( sp ? ) range .

I know uk born folks are brainwashed with sunfaipriny but there are plenty of of U.K. ( and none VP ) options out there .
All in straight shafts .
In todays internet savvy buyers they will do due diligence and knock your door off for something that actually works ..


Bet no 8uggers on this forum heard of the link boat maker ^^ ?
They are good btw . factory’s down the road from me

 

[westernman]

Take a look at this range Sciallino Sciallino 40 Fly Usato, Vendita Sciallino Sciallino 40 Fly, Annunci barche e Yacht Sciallino
They do a 45 as well
Also the Apeamarie range and Menorquin ( sp ? ) range .

I know uk born folks are brainwashed with sunfaipriny but there are plenty of of U.K. ( and none VP ) options out there .
All in straight shafts .
In todays internet savvy buyers they will do due diligence and knock your door off for something that actually works ..


Bet no 8uggers on this forum heard of the link boat maker ^^ ?
They are good btw .

Did look at Menorquin.

Had a look at a really tatty one close by. Here it is: Menorquin 150, Trawler occasion à la vente (Hérault) | N°244370
Galley down stairs, small saloon.
Admiral did not like the layout.
And that particular one was very neglected and had some weird mains wiring going on, some rotten hand rails. Would not touch it with a barge pole.

The photos are extremely flattering.

 

[Portofino]

Been to 3 factories
Sunseeker ( U.K. )
Aperamare ( Naples )
Sciallino here in near loano , Liguria Italy .

The U.K. ones the least impressive in terms if fit n finish , craft mens ship, etc .Your pays your money .

For the thread and OP he’s having none of this , i think via the wife’s mid cabin sell it , it’s a done deal , he’s bought it and is asking for reassurance on a old IPS boat as a “:fait a acomplie “ =good luck with that .

Up side ( there is always one )……. Hopefully the next guy will be equally eager to to buy it off him caught up in VP hype .

 

[Elessar]

Looking for something 40-45ft or so with two decent double cabins, decent saloon and galley, flybridge with space for decent size tender + sailing dinghy (lightweight but 4m long probably stacked under tender hanging out over stern), heating, air conditioning. Enough storage space for some e-bikes.
No need to go fast. Confortable for staying on board at anchor and cooking for a week at a time. Ideally with a boom for a flopper stopper for breaking the roll at some anchorages.

The closest to match to requirements at the moment is a Swift Trawler 44.

Admiral loves the central midships cabin on some IPS boats.

My Sealine T46 ticks all those boxes with shaft drive.
The full width master cabin is behind the engines.
I don’t understand why aft cabin boats fell out of favour.
It’s great not to be able to hear your guests farting and bonking.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

I don’t understand why aft cabin boats fell out of favour.
It’s great not to be able to hear your guests farting and bonking.

It's the failure of the UK boating industry, which all they did since the nineties is follow the Italians.
The last evolution of the aft cabin design was the Pearl 60, and the Ferretti 690 Altura. After that it somehow disappeared.
Even Pearl eventually offloaded the design, which is a pity especially in the larger sizes, and a blue print ready by Ferretti.

 

[Portofino]

I don’t understand why aft cabin boats fell out of favour.
It’s great not to be able to hear your guests farting and bonking.

Agree ^^

A lot of Italian sports cruisers starting around the OP size of interest did aft cabins and used the top as a sunpad area .
Passerelle as a tender crane for the tender on the larger than ave bathing platforms.That formula worked in the Med .

The smaller shaft , none Arnesons Pershings , like the 43 or 50 from around 2002-2005 and of course Itama excluding the 38/40 .
The bigger ones like mine are split . Plenty of others ie Sarnico and some 90 s Rivas opens , Georgi 46 + many more .
But today with the advent of IPS that aft cabin is now the ER space , and Hilo platforms have been miniaturised to drop the tender .


Also the mid mounted motors has been pushed back with V drives and the advent of tender garages , letter box passerelles …..so again the rear end of say a Porto 46 or Camargue 50 , or eq FL or Priny 50 .Folks prefer steps to the sea as opposed to a ladder and a garage to throw crap in .

So the rear cabins fait kinda fell by the wayside .
IPS throws the motors even further back in this40-50 bracket .I think the next size up IPS use Jack shafts as the blocks arn’t pressed up against the transom .So some thought albeit a lash up imho has been done regarding centre of gravity ending up too far rearwards and the thing running like that S / Sker 47 ip s I posted .

I still see them though new modal IPS 50 ftrs running very bow high .

 

[westernman]

My Sealine T46 ticks all those boxes with shaft drive.
The full width master cabin is behind the engines.
I don’t understand why aft cabin boats fell out of favour.
It’s great not to be able to hear your guests farting and bonking.

Nowhere on the flybridge to store 4m dinghy and tender.

 

[DAW]

I think the next size up IPS use Jack shafts as the blocks arn’t pressed up against the transom .So some thought albeit a lash up imho has been done regarding centre of gravity ending up too far rearwards and the thing running like that S / Sker 47 ip s I posted .

I think that's correct ... For example, when you look in the engine room of the new Sunseeker Predator 65/Sport Yacht 65 there is quite some distance between the engines and the pods, which are located right at the back of the engine room near the transom. Presumably this was done to improve the centre of gravity.

The engines are still mounted a lot further back than they are on the shaft-driven Predator 57/60 and now sit almost completely under the floor of the tender garage. Access for routine daily checks, change of filters, etc. is fine, but access for anything more serious is very tight and major servicing would probably require removal of the watertight panels in the garage floor.

You can see a typical IPS installation in this video from a Sunseeker broker presenting the new Predator 65. The engine room tour is from 28.00 onwards. Comments about what he thinks an owner might need access to are interesting

 

[Elessar]

Nowhere on the flybridge to store 4m dinghy and tender.

Fair. It’s craned onto chocks that fold out of the bathing platform. And storage generally is limited as there is no lazerette. Everything in boating is a compromise.
It still has 3 en suite cabins in 14m which shows you don’t need to have IPS to have a well packaged boat.
I suspect the reason builders like IPS is that they are dead easy to install.

 

[oldgit]

Rodman with IPS, a friends second boat, purchased from Norfolk Broads, he moves it to Lowestoft , ready for a trip back to the Medway.
Around 120 miles.
First planned return cancelled due to weather, day or two later, things improve.
Classic East coast wind over tide scenario, F 4-5 nothing dramatic , 1 metre waves short choppy sea etc.

Manoeuvred out of marina using standard shaft operations ie. throttles alone. no IPS .
Had to hold position against wind and tide while waiting for bridge, similar to a shaft boat in all respects.
Once outside set engines to 25 knots and off.
Impressions, immediatly notice how quiet and smooth the engines are compared to a shaft boat ie. with the engines under the saloon.
The ride is different .
Having helped return several shaft driven boats prior to this under similar conditions and length of trip, it was noticeable that the Rodman appeared to go over the top of the waves, whereas the shaft boats went through them, giving a "softer" ride, not that the Rodman ride was unpleasant, just different.
Nearing the end of the run speed was increased to around 30 knots. The fuel burn indicated 160 LPH.
The skipper of this boat absolutely loves the IPS, it has given him the confidence to get in and out of his locked marina and to use the boat more.
He has earmarked a tidy sum just in case.
So far a couple of limp home situations, over heat alarms , hoses coming lose dumping water in bilge, nothing dramatic.

 

[Portofino]

I think that's correct ... For example, when you look in the engine room of the new Sunseeker Predator 65/Sport Yacht 65 there is quite some distance between the engines and the pods, which are located right at the back of the engine room near the transom. Presumably this was done to improve the centre of gravity.

The engines are still mounted a lot further back than they are on the shaft-driven Predator 57/60 and now sit almost completely under the floor of the tender garage. Access for routine daily checks, change of filters, etc. is fine, but access for anything more serious is very tight and major servicing would probably require removal of the watertight panels in the garage floor.

You can see a typical IPS installation in this video from a Sunseeker broker presenting the new Predator 65. The engine room tour is from 28.00 onwards. Comments about what he thinks an owner might need access to are interesting

Yes he’s playing down the checks etc ….swaying towards “ they are all electronic theses day it will tell you if it’s needs anything “
“ thats engineers space “referring the pod area owners don’t need to bother them selves.

Geny panels at the side look tight and it’s high up .That’s brushed over access to its impeller , belt ,anodes and other gubbins .

The motors might have hydraulic tappets so no real need to remove the rocker box covers , I guess so the tender garage intrusion is ok ish ?

The gen access by going round the boat isn’t good .Indeed could be dangerous in a chop , big seas .Also having the main breakers , what seemed a lot in the ER seems like hassle .

Even my boats got the breakers in the salon ( opposite the ER bulkhead ) so an easy wire run .
We have two ER hatches one each end of the ER in the cockpit floor …..openable from inside as well .On a 14 M boat !
I thought more of a safety feature so there’s another way out in case one’s not viable for what ever reason , fumes fire , ?

I got the owners vanity / work station “ more people are working from there boats “ thingy .

But would have preferred a door back into the ER from the owners mid cabin .You know proper water tight real deal perhaps behind or inside a walk in wardrobe so pretty well disguised .

A San Lorenzo 62 has a walking door from the crew quarters, buts it’s std shafts .

I think they are relying , drifting towards newbies or inexperienced boaters ….the whole IPS parking , the mid cabin the Jack of all trades .It will sell no doubt NEW .
Its just when it’s 10-15 yrs old and the maintenance catches up .
Which is where the OP is with his 2002-2004 era .

 

[Elessar]

Rodman with IPS, a friends second boat, purchased from Norfolk Broads, he moves it to Lowestoft , ready for a trip back to the Medway.
Around 120 miles.
First planned return cancelled due to weather, day or two later, things improve.
Classic East coast wind over tide scenario, F 4-5 nothing dramatic , 1 metre waves short choppy sea etc.

Manoeuvred out of marina using standard shaft operations ie. throttles alone. no IPS .
Had to hold position against wind and tide while waiting for bridge, similar to a shaft boat in all respects.
Once outside set engines to 25 knots and off.
Impressions, immediatly notice how quiet and smooth the engines are compared to a shaft boat ie. with the engines under the saloon.
The ride is different .
Having helped return several shaft driven boats prior to this under similar conditions and length of trip, it was noticeable that the Rodman appeared to go over the top of the waves, whereas the shaft boats went through them, giving a "softer" ride, not that the Rodman ride was unpleasant, just different.
Nearing the end of the run speed was increased to around 30 knots. The fuel burn indicated 160 LPH.
The skipper of this boat absolutely loves the IPS, it has given him the confidence to get in and out of his locked marina and to use the boat more.
He has earmarked a tidy sum just in case.
So far a couple of limp home situations, over heat alarms , hoses coming lose dumping water in bilge, nothing dramatic.

They are better driven as a sterndrive than a shaftdrive for manoeuvring. They have no prop walk like a shaft boat - it's all about the wheel and choosing the right engine whereas with shaft you don't (generally) touch the wheel.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Agree ^^

A lot of Italian sports cruisers starting around the OP size of interest did aft cabins and used the top as a sunpad area .
Passerelle as a tender crane for the tender on the larger than ave bathing platforms.That formula worked in the Med .

The smaller shaft , none Arnesons Pershings , like the 43 or 50 from around 2002-2005 and of course Itama excluding the 38/40 .
The bigger ones like mine are split . Plenty of others ie Sarnico and some 90 s Rivas opens , Georgi 46 + many more .

Riva was one of the few Italian who never ventured into an aft cabin boat, with the exception for a small crew cabin.
59 Mercurius, Aquarius, Bahamas, Turborosso, Black Corsair non had aft cabins.
Same goes for Baia.

Sarnico did aft cabin on most models nearly all models. Only Sarnico with no aft cabins, are the 40/43, Spider, and 80.

Pershing probably off my head was the inventor of the aft cabin sport cruiser with double beds (as an accommodation cabin surely in its size) with its first model, the 45 launched in 1985, a three cabin three bathroom fourteen meter sport yacht sold in fifty units. Then they made the 40 also an aft cabin (its third model), and also offered it on the 33 (evolution of the 30 with two cabins and shaft drive).
They continued this philosophy with the second generation 45 launched in 1999, and the 46 launched in 05 but after that it was abandoned.
Also they made surface drives models with aft cabin, Pershing 54, 60, 48 (an option four made), 46 (existed as an option three made) etc.
At around 1995 most Pershing with the exception of the 70, and 38 where aft cabin boats.
The FG ownership from 1998 and Pershing to become a more international brand changed all this.

Amati - Itama jumped in the aft cabin cause of clients and the 45 model launched in 1985 and had clients asking for a double bunk some years later (around 88/89) for making it a three cabin three bath boat.
Following this he had also same request for the 54, so the 46 was made with a larger third cabin aft (standard in double bunk) in 1995, and in 1996 the 56 came with a large twin berth cabin.

I think around the mid nineties about 60% (possibly a bit more) of Italian sport yachts around the 13-18 meter had aft cabins as a second or third guest cabin.

The exception was Baia, Riva, Tecnomar, the Abbate Primatist, and Tullio Abbate but there boats in this time where mostly powerboat on steroids and big diesels with extreme styling.

Gobbi made a silent revolution with its new for 1992 44 Sport flagship launched in Genoa 1992 with a three cabin layout all forward, which revolutionized lower deck layouts copied first by Bruno Abbate for the G48 in 95 and then by Fairline with the Targa 48 in 96.

 

[MapisM]

Comments about what he thinks an owner might need access to are interesting

Indeed.
When he started arguing that "modern engines don't require a lot of checks" because they are computerized and they tell you when they aren't having a good time, I almost lost the will to live.
But I resisted and watched the rest, at least up to the point where he shows the pod access - lack of, that is!
As far as I can tell from the video, I'm not sure that even a dwarf would be able to reach the stbd pod.
I guess S/skr envisaged that a smurf should take care of it.
So, I gave up watching the video after I heard that "day to day as an owner there isn't really anything to do in the back here".
In fact, one of the most annoying IPS problems is that even with the most accurately maintained units, it only takes a fishing line grabbed by the props (a capacity in which IPS is second to none, for obvious reasons!) for damaging the shaft seal, getting emulsified oil inside the pod as a result.
And the only way to avoid wrecking the whole pod is through frequent oil checks, because at the first signs of the slightest oil emulsion it's essential to not run that engine anymore till the boat can be lifted to replace the seal, empty the bad oil, flush the pod and refill it.
So, I'd be curious to hear from the amiable but clueless chap in the video if he thinks that any computer would be capable to spot emulsified oil, because a boating mate of mine with an IPS powered boat was suggested by the VP official service that takes care of her to visually check the pods dipsticks as frequently as possible - ideally, each and every time the boat is being used.
Which at least, in his boat is no big deal because pods accessibility is great.
But how to do something as simple as checking the stbd dipstick in that S/skr is a total mistery to me.

 

[MapisM]

They are better driven as a sterndrive than a shaftdrive for manoeuvring. They have no prop walk like a shaft boat - it's all about the wheel and choosing the right engine whereas with shaft you don't (generally) touch the wheel.

Actually, when as previously mentioned I had a go at maneuvering an IPS boat with levers alone, I did it as I'm used to with shafts, without using the wheel.
And maneuverability wasn't bad at all, even with no outdrive-style vectoring thrust.
But I see what you mean, of course: I guess the wheel could further improve handling, at least up to a point, also in X-wind conditions which the vast majority of IPS boater would consider unaffordable without a joystick.

 

[TK Blue MAX]

that any computer would be capable to spot emulsified oil

I don't know, but wouldn't the same type of sensor that detects water in fuel be able to do this?

 

[Elessar]

Actually, when as previously mentioned I had a go at maneuvering an IPS boat with levers alone, I did it as I'm used to with shafts, without using the wheel.
And maneuverability wasn't bad at all, even with no outdrive-style vectoring thrust.
But I see what you mean, of course: I guess the wheel could further improve handling, at least up to a point, also in X-wind conditions which the vast majority of IPS boater would consider unaffordable without a joystick.

When manoeuvring in a mild crosswind in IPS, use the upwind engine (in astern) or downwind engine (in forward) to hold the bow into the wind and vector the thrust with the wheel to position the stern into the space. Exactly as you would a stern drive but the pods are further forward and further apart than stern drives and so the ability of the engine choice to control the bow is more pronounced. No bow thruster or joystick required.

Unlike a shaft drive where you need a bow thruster more often as you can’t decouple the bow and stern effect of engine choice (ok you can a bit in forward gear only but that’s the advanced class)

Of course many boaters don’t have these basic skills and we hear them caning their bow thruster as their first choice tool.

When the cross wind gets up in IPS with no thruster you may need to click on the joystick to get the bow under control, but touch the throttle and it takes priority. As long as you know how to handle the boat the joystick can add a little finesse but doesn’t have to do very much.

IPS with bow thruster would be the easiest of the lot I recon (not used one so I’m guessing) and I don’t think I’d use the joystick at all.

Again of course without the basic underlying skills you see people doing PlayStation parking with IPS, clicking the joystick on as soon as they get into the marina. Their efforts are rewarded by lots of revs and a sort of a weird wobble as the boat stutters sideways. And they have no clue when the wind and tide is about to overwhelm the ability of their joystick.

 

[Portofino]

Indeed.
When he started arguing that "modern engines don't require a lot of checks" because they are computerized and they tell you when they aren't having a good time, I almost lost the will to live.
But I resisted and watched the rest, at least up to the point where he shows the pod access - lack of, that is!
As far as I can tell from the video, I'm not sure that even a dwarf would be able to reach the stbd pod.
I guess S/skr envisaged that a smurf should take care of it.
So, I gave up watching the video after I heard that "day to day as an owner there isn't really anything to do in the back here".
In fact, one of the most annoying IPS problems is that even with the most accurately maintained units, it only takes a fishing line grabbed by the props (a capacity in which IPS is second to none, for obvious reasons!) for damaging the shaft seal, getting emulsified oil inside the pod as a result.
And the only way to avoid wrecking the whole pod is through frequent oil checks, because at the first signs of the slightest oil emulsion it's essential to not run that engine anymore till the boat can be lifted to replace the seal, empty the bad oil, flush the pod and refill it.
So, I'd be curious to hear from the amiable but clueless chap in the video if he thinks that any computer would be capable to spot emulsified oil, because a boating mate of mine with an IPS powered boat was suggested by the VP official service that takes care of her to visually check the pods dipsticks as frequently as possible - ideally, each and every time the boat is being used.
Which at least, in his boat is no big deal because pods accessibility is great.
But how to do something as simple as checking the stbd dipstick in that S/skr is a total mistery to me.

I think , in fact know it’s possible to fit oil sensors that could detect water .Based on micro voltage changes as foreign inc salt water substances start to impregnate it .

Modern cars have them from VAG made by Behr .Not just for level but for quality hence no dip sticks .

Buts it ( on a boat ) another gizmo to go wrong .You are right the mk1 eye ball would be my choice via a dip stick for such a mission critical and expensive piece of kit .
My mates 2007 Porto 47; on IPS had dip sticks .…..a struggle even then to get to .
His boat on a del trip from La Sepzia alarmed off off Genoa .It was a SSkr dealer P x boat going to La Nap ( Cannes ) .
Never made it water ingress destroyed a pod .
Long story short 3 months delay in Genoa , one new pod and the other removed and re sealed .
The boat was SSkr warranted and it needed it .VP were kept busy .Daft things like limp mode when n the marina , one engine dying with the joystick .All little niggles .
In the end as Elassar infered he stoped using the joy stick .

I know they have come a long way since the noughties and DAW s vid is new version hopefully with a few more bells and whistles ( no pun intended ) like water in drive oil alarms ? As I said as short term flipper reasonably new ish within warranty then go for it and get rid when 4 or 5 yrs .

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

I drove a new Princess V40 with DPI stern drives 2022 model year. Once you scroll in the menus you have all sort of oil and water indication from temperature to pressure to load, I think it also included levels.
This data is for both stern drive and engines new D6 340hp.
I actually could not remember all the data, but if a DPI stern drive has all this gizmos I would think a new large IPS 1350 pod drive will have it as well.

 

[DAW]

The Volvo Penta product data sheet and the Operator’s Manual for the D13-IPS 1350 both refer to a ”water in oil sensor” as standard equipment and say that the oil can be changed with the boat in the water.