IN in EU or OUT from EU

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

For the benefit of those whose livelihoods depend on this sector, may I ask what evidence you have to support such a claim?

It would be foolish to start disclosing such information. I will be attending meetings (next week) with the Engineering Council and the Science Council; it would interesting to hear what they have to say, especially behind doors, although I can guess.

 

[halcyon]

It would be foolish to start disclosing such information. I will be attending meetings (next week) with the Engineering Council and the Science Council; it would interesting to hear what they have to say, especially behind doors, although I can guess.

It would have been nicer to have heard you had been to meeting 12 months ago, and had subsequent meeting to hear or arrange plans should an exit vote go through.

A comment by a political writer to-day as to lack of action by our leaders, they had been bought up under the EU and so had no need of thinking or planning. What we have now is a step into the unknown, how general is it through the Country ?

Brian

 

[dom]

It would be foolish to start disclosing such information. I will be attending meetings (next week) with the Engineering Council and the Science Council; it would interesting to hear what they have to say, especially behind doors, although I can guess.

Perfectly fair, but until one is prepared to back up a point with facts it probably makes sense to hold one's counsel

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

Can we hear the views from the non British, in this forum? or from the British of foreign descent, please.
I, personally, heard enough from the xenophobics, and the nonsense they have come up with. We are lucky enough to have an interest in a sport, yachting and sailing, that is sociable, involves all nationalities, languages and skin shades; yacht racing also follows the principle "let the best man win". Also, when I go to someone else's country, I want to feel safe and secured and visa-versa, we have now taken several steps backwards.

This thread and poll has been an eye opener for me and very sad to hear of how many people amongst us, hide their one sided views, I wonder if these people would be better off and happier moving altogether to a different planet.

 

[Koeketiene]

Can we hear the views from the non British, in this forum? or from the British of foreign descent, please.

Briefly...

- We (wife, 2 children and me) arrived in this country as 'EU migrants' in 1999.
- I was sent here by my employer and am due to retire in the (very) near future.
- Wife started working within 6 months of our arrival here and has since then never been without employment.
- Children were 3 and 8 when we arrived here. They went to school/college/uni here. Eldest graduated a few years ago and was headhunted even before she graduated. Been working for a few years now and bought a flat in Beds last X-Mas.
Son just graduated and was about to due start working for a Cambs based IT company. He's now re-considering and has interviews lined up in Sweden, Germany and the US.
- In all our time here, we have not claimed £0.01 in UK benefits. Would not know how to.
- Whilst for the wife and me it has never been our intention to stay in this country once I retire, it's different for the children. Their whole life is here. My eldest in particular has taken the referendum result to heart. She called me - almost in tears - when the result was announced: 'What have I done wrong?'.

Since the start of the BREXIT referendum campaign, attitudes towards anyone foreign (non-English) have changed and not for the better. It used to be just little things, but since the referendum result it's been turning nasty...
- Last WE, my daughter was verbally assaulted in Bedford for dearing to wear a Belgium football top.
- Last Sunday, my wife was verbally assaulted by a couple of youths in Hemel Hempstead because... she drives a LHD car.

Eldest works for a large Anglo/Dutch cooperation. She's now applied for a job in Holland within the same company.
The wife works for a large US multinational. The division she works for has 3 plants in the EU (UK, Sweden and France). In January it was announced that one of the plants was due to close this year. Decission to be made end April. The decission has now been postphoned till September. No-one in senior management is willing to say anything, but in the last week all employees have received an e-mail from HR whether or not they would be willing to relocate to another country. Nuff said.

This country has been our home - for better or for worse - for the past 17 years and I am saddened that it now seems like my children will not have a future here.
Whenever its young, talented people choose to leave it does not bode well for a country.

 

[Daydream believer]

Briefly...

- We (wife, 2 children and me) arrived in this country as 'EU migrants' in 1999.
- I was sent here by my employer and am due to retire in the (very) near future.
- Wife started working within 6 months of our arrival here and has since then never been without employment.
- Children were 3 and 8 when we arrived here. They went to school/college/uni here. Eldest graduated a few years ago and was headhunted even before she graduated. Been working for a few years now and bought a flat in Beds last X-Mas.
Son just graduated and was about to due start working for a Cambs based IT company. He's now re-considering and has interviews lined up in Sweden, Germany and the US.
- In all our time here, we have not claimed £0.01 in UK benefits. Would not know how to.
- Whilst for the wife and me it has never been our intention to stay in this country once I retire, it's different for the children. Their whole life is here. My eldest in particular has taken the referendum result to heart. She called me - almost in tears - when the result was announced: 'What have I done wrong?'.

Since the start of the BREXIT referendum campaign, attitudes towards anyone foreign (non-English) have changed and not for the better. It used to be just little things, but since the referendum result it's been turning nasty...
- Last WE, my daughter was verbally assaulted in Bedford for dearing to wear a Belgium football top.
- Last Sunday, my wife was verbally assaulted by a couple of youths in Hemel Hempstead because... she drives a LHD car.

Eldest works for a large Anglo/Dutch cooperation. She's now applied for a job in Holland within the same company.
The wife works for a large US multinational. The division she works for has 3 plants in the EU (UK, Sweden and France). In January it was announced that one of the plants was due to close this year. Decission to be made end April. The decission has now been postphoned till September. No-one in senior management is willing to say anything, but in the last week all employees have received an e-mail from HR whether or not they would be willing to relocate to another country. Nuff said.

This country has been our home - for better or for worse - for the past 17 years and I am saddened that it now seems like my children will not have a future here.
Whenever its young, talented people choose to leave it does not bode well for a country.

You have not claimed benefits but you freely admit that your family have benefitted from our education system & may have well have benefitted from our housing & nhs. So tour comments are not entirely correct
However , that is not to suggest for one minute that you should not be made welcome here as people who contribute to the community. The problems your family have experienced are truly wrong but unfortunately a fact of life wherever you live. It could have easily happened amy where in europe.
I do not think that anyone would suggest that immigrants with something to offer & woth a genuine willingness to integrate into our society are not welcome. There is , however, a fraction that is totally the opposite & gives immigration a bad name. In addition there is a limit to the numbers our island can absorb.
Brexit is not just about immigration, although it would seem so in many peoples minds. Sovreignty is just as important and the ability to control our own lives as a collective nation.
It is just unfortunate that recent events suggest that even this is now proving to seem to be a pipe dream.
I suspect that waring fCtions within the political elite will defy the wishes of the nation & brexit will be a nonety
This will lead to a lot of unrest & a real breakdown of trust within the nation as a whole

 

[Biggles Wader]

You have not claimed benefits but you freely admit that your family have benefitted from our education system & may have well have benefitted from our housing & nhs. So tour comments are not entirely correct
However , that is not to suggest for one minute that you should not be made welcome here as people who contribute to the community. The problems your family have experienced are truly wrong but unfortunately a fact of life wherever you live. It could have easily happened amy where in europe.
I do not think that anyone would suggest that immigrants with something to offer & woth a genuine willingness to integrate into our society are not welcome. There is , however, a fraction that is totally the opposite & gives immigration a bad name. In addition there is a limit to the numbers our island can absorb.
Brexit is not just about immigration, although it would seem so in many peoples minds. Sovreignty is just as important and the ability to control our own lives as a collective nation.
It is just unfortunate that recent events suggest that even this is now proving to seem to be a pipe dream.
I suspect that waring fCtions within the political elite will defy the wishes of the nation & brexit will be a nonety
This will lead to a lot of unrest & a real breakdown of trust within the nation as a whole

You are the policeman in ello ello and I claim my five francs.

 

[Koeketiene]

You have not claimed benefits but you freely admit that your family have benefitted from our education system & may have well have benefitted from our housing & nhs. So tour comments are not entirely correct

Assumptions again.
Housing/education was PAID FOR.
And so was health care: NHS through tax (just like anyone else) and topped up with a private - paid for - health insurance.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

You have not claimed benefits but you freely admit that your family have benefitted from our education system & may have well have benefitted from our housing & nhs. So tour comments are not entirely correct
However , that is not to suggest for one minute that you should not be made welcome here as people who contribute to the community. The problems your family have experienced are truly wrong but unfortunately a fact of life wherever you live. It could have easily happened amy where in europe.
I do not think that anyone would suggest that immigrants with something to offer & woth a genuine willingness to integrate into our society are not welcome. There is , however, a fraction that is totally the opposite & gives immigration a bad name. In addition there is a limit to the numbers our island can absorb.
Brexit is not just about immigration, although it would seem so in many peoples minds. Sovreignty is just as important and the ability to control our own lives as a collective nation.
It is just unfortunate that recent events suggest that even this is now proving to seem to be a pipe dream.
I suspect that waring fCtions within the political elite will defy the wishes of the nation & brexit will be a nonety
This will lead to a lot of unrest & a real breakdown of trust within the nation as a whole

Tax payers support the education system, the NHS and the council housing, whether the taxpayer is British or not is irrelevant.

 

[Oldfellah]

I wondered if anyone has given a thought to the 1.2 million UK citizens now living in other EU countries ? I and my family live in France where we pay all taxes, etc and I also, although retired, I still pay tax in the UK on a UK business. If the negotiations about free movement of citizens fails to work out as the many leave campaigners are convinced it will then where will that leave us (all 1.2 million of us) ? Perhaps we will all come back to the UK and hope to be housed by a Country that we have paid into for all our working life ! If you treat EU citizens living in the UK with contempt, as is happening on a regular basis, then don't be surprised if in turn we (Brits living in the EU) get abused and are made unwelcome in the EU country where we live. The UK is now being looked at as a racist nation with Farage being the leading contender for 'Nasty of the year' and the anti EU feeling is starting to turn in an anti European one. If we are not careful we will become the pariahs of Europe. To negotiate a good exit deal we need the goodwill of all of the other 27 EEC countries which can only come about if we treat them, and their citizens, with a degree of respect rather than regarding them as enemy's. Little England ? God help us.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

I wondered if anyone has given a thought to the 1.2 million UK citizens now living in other EU countries ? I and my family live in France where we pay all taxes, etc and I also, although retired, I still pay tax in the UK on a UK business. If the negotiations about free movement of citizens fails to work out as the many leave campaigners are convinced it will then where will that leave us (all 1.2 million of us) ? Perhaps we will all come back to the UK and hope to be housed by a Country that we have paid into for all our working life ! If you treat EU citizens living in the UK with contempt, as is happening on a regular basis, then don't be surprised if in turn we (Brits living in the EU) get abused and are made unwelcome in the EU country where we live. The UK is now being looked at as a racist nation with Farage being the leading contender for 'Nasty of the year' and the anti EU feeling is starting to turn in an anti European one. If we are not careful we will become the pariahs of Europe. To negotiate a good exit deal we need the goodwill of all of the other 27 EEC countries which can only come about if we treat them, and their citizens, with a degree of respect rather than regarding them as enemy's. Little England ? God help us.

Actually, the 1.2 million is the official figure, the actual figure is over 2 million plus. I support the Brits who live and earn money in the EU.
It appears to me that those who complain, in the UK, are those British people who have contributed very little to this country, have spend most of their life claiming benefits and council housing and are eager to carry on claiming, but are having competition from a very small minority of EU citizens who come in the UK to claim benefits too; the lazy complain about the lazy.

 

[Tranona]

I wondered if anyone has given a thought to the 1.2 million UK citizens now living in other EU countries ? I and my family live in France where we pay all taxes, etc and I also, although retired, I still pay tax in the UK on a UK business. If the negotiations about free movement of citizens fails to work out as the many leave campaigners are convinced it will then where will that leave us (all 1.2 million of us) ? Perhaps we will all come back to the UK and hope to be housed by a Country that we have paid into for all our working life ! If you treat EU citizens living in the UK with contempt, as is happening on a regular basis, then don't be surprised if in turn we (Brits living in the EU) get abused and are made unwelcome in the EU country where we live. The UK is now being looked at as a racist nation with Farage being the leading contender for 'Nasty of the year' and the anti EU feeling is starting to turn in an anti European one. If we are not careful we will become the pariahs of Europe. To negotiate a good exit deal we need the goodwill of all of the other 27 EEC countries which can only come about if we treat them, and their citizens, with a degree of respect rather than regarding them as enemy's. Little England ? God help us.

There is no suggestion that UK citizens living in the EU will be affected in any way. Their rights are protected by international treaties. It may well be that there will be restrictions in the future, probably reciprocal to whatever restrictions are set by the UK government. In exactly the same way, any EU citizens living in the UK will not be forced out.

I am afraid everything you say is out of the same mould as the Project Fear stuff that lost Dave the referendum.

 

[Oldfellah]

There is no suggestion that UK citizens living in the EU will be affected in any way. Their rights are protected by international treaties. It may well be that there will be restrictions in the future, probably reciprocal to whatever restrictions are set by the UK government. In exactly the same way, any EU citizens living in the UK will not be forced out.

I am afraid everything you say is out of the same mould as the Project Fear stuff that lost Dave the referendum.

Not at all.
The drop in the value of the pound has already affected us and the uncertainty of our future status regarding health care, etc is of great concern to most of us ex pats. Taxation is another great worry as it is quite possible that the double taxation treaty will be scrapped along with all the other benefits that being a member of an EU country includes. It is oh so easy to take the simplistic view that 'nothing will change' when most 'experts' readily admit that nothing is certain and presumptions of a gentle parting of the ways with little negative change are nothing more that guesswork. You cast my concerns as just another example of 'Project Fear' and in some ways you are right - us ex pats do fear about our future, financial and otherwise, and comments such as yours illustrate just how divorced from the reality of this situation you are.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

There is no suggestion that UK citizens living in the EU will be affected in any way. Their rights are protected by international treaties. It may well be that there will be restrictions in the future, probably reciprocal to whatever restrictions are set by the UK government. In exactly the same way, any EU citizens living in the UK will not be forced out.

I am afraid everything you say is out of the same mould as the Project Fear stuff that lost Dave the referendum.

It is very naive to think that nothing will change; things have changed already in the UK, financial and racism being the two obvious consequences. Have you tried buying an annuity lately?

 

[mihtjel]

Which treaties are you referring to? I heard some people talk about the Vienna convention on international treaties, but that protects states, not people. If the UK doesn't get a deal with the EU and leaves, it's my impression that any UK citizen without a visa is liable to be kicked out.

Not that that's a very likely scenario; and what incentive would there be to kick them out if they're working?

On the feelings of us not from the UK: The referendum and subsequent debates have the feeling of being at a party of 28, and one person standing up and shouting "You're all a bunch of idiots, I'm leaving!" - and then trying to negotiate whether he's still hosting the party next year, which parts of the leftovers he can bring home, and who wants to share a cab.

On the one hand, I'd rather the UK doesn't leave. On the other hand, if you don't like it, and aren't going to play by the rules anyway, it might be better to just get it over with.

 

[Niander]

Assumptions again.
Housing/education was PAID FOR.
And so was health care: NHS through tax (just like anyone else) and topped up with a private - paid for - health insurance.

Obviously you are not the average EU migrant type are you.
The normal type will claim what they can ...human nature and send the child benefit back to Lithuania.....[other EU countries are available].
Obviously you would have passed the points system many of the others might not.
Disappointed Boris pulled out..Anyone else?

 

[Tranona]

Not at all.
The drop in the value of the pound has already affected us and the uncertainty of our future status regarding health care, etc is of great concern to most of us ex pats. Taxation is another great worry as it is quite possible that the double taxation treaty will be scrapped along with all the other benefits that being a member of an EU country includes. It is oh so easy to take the simplistic view that 'nothing will change' when most 'experts' readily admit that nothing is certain and presumptions of a gentle parting of the ways with little negative change are nothing more that guesswork. You cast my concerns as just another example of 'Project Fear' and in some ways you are right - us ex pats do fear about our future, financial and otherwise, and comments such as yours illustrate just how divorced from the reality of this situation you are.

Where is the basis for your speculation? The £ is still higher against the euro in the 2008-2012 period. Of course the recent fall has immediate effect but the euro is just as volatile because of the political and economic uncertainty in the EU. The future of the EHIC is of course in doubt, but you have to remember that there are twice as many EU citizens living in the UK than there are UK citizens living in the EU. So unlikely that EU member states would want to get into a position where the UK denies health care to their citizens.

What is your basis for suggesting that double taxation treaties may be scrapped? They are nothing to do with the EU but are individual state treaties that predate the EU. UK has such treaties with many countries outside the EU.

Not divorced from reality at all. Of course there will be changes, but many of the freedoms that you fear you might lose were there before the EU came into being.

 

[Capt Popeye]

:ambivalence:

Humm just perhaps its decision time for those who have settled abroad, either apply for chosen Nationality in country of choice or 'shut up' and take the gamble with a changing world.

My understanding is that those who choose to settle in countries like Australia take up Nationality there so whats different about Europe ?

Migration and Emigration can be beneficial and so can taking up Nationality, just go for it, please !

 

[elton]

Already, some of the players such as Rolls Royce, aero and nuclear, are very concerned that British research will be reduced, and they are taking action to move a lot of their interests abroad.

All they need do is to redress the discrepancy between the remuneration of managers and scientist, in favour of the scientists and engineers. Quite simple really.

 

[Oldfellah]

Where is the basis for your speculation? The £ is still higher against the euro in the 2008-2012 period. Of course the recent fall has immediate effect but the euro is just as volatile because of the political and economic uncertainty in the EU. The future of the EHIC is of course in doubt, but you have to remember that there are twice as many EU citizens living in the UK than there are UK citizens living in the EU. So unlikely that EU member states would want to get into a position where the UK denies health care to their citizens.

What is your basis for suggesting that double taxation treaties may be scrapped? They are nothing to do with the EU but are individual state treaties that predate the EU. UK has such treaties with many countries outside the EU.

Not divorced from reality at all. Of course there will be changes, but many of the freedoms that you fear you might lose were there before the EU came into being.

The fact is that nobody knows how the negotiations will pan out and what effect it will have on the ex-pat community so we are quite right to be concerned. I would reckon that everybody will have cause for concern once the true cost of leaving the EU becomes clear. The only thing the economists have agreed on for as long as I can remember is that the Brexit will be detrimental to the UK economy and with negotiations likely to drag on for several years we have to live with the uncertainly of what the future holds.
on the subject of the exchange rates you will be aware that until the Brexit vote Sterling was trading at 1.36+ against the Euro and where is it now ? At 1.19 and forecast to drop even further as the details of Brexit and the economy start to become clearer.