IN in EU or OUT from EU

[Tranona]

The fact is that nobody knows how the negotiations will pan out and what effect it will have on the ex-pat community so we are quite right to be concerned. I would reckon that everybody will have cause for concern once the true cost of leaving the EU becomes clear. The only thing the economists have agreed on for as long as I can remember is that the Brexit will be detrimental to the UK economy and with negotiations likely to drag on for several years we have to live with the uncertainly of what the future holds.
on the subject of the exchange rates you will be aware that until the Brexit vote Sterling was trading at 1.36+ against the Euro and where is it now ? At 1.19 and forecast to drop even further as the details of Brexit and the economy start to become clearer.

You are right. Nobody really knows what will happen as the vote was about principles rather than policies. We are now beginning to see the differences in approach from the various contender for PM, but it is likely to take months for a basic negotiating position to emerge and then 2 years or more before the final deal is done.

Uncertainty is nothing new. Just think of the swings in the foreign currency markets over the last 30 years or so. As examples the period 2006 - 2010 when I was spending a lot of time in Greece the rate went from 1.5 down to 1.1. 18 months ago I started looking a buying a new boat when the rate was 1.2. In May last year I bought it at a rate of 1.36. Now it is back to 1.2.

We have no control over exchange rates except where it might be prudent to hedge your known exposure (as I did with this boat purchase and the previous one in 2001), but, while there is some immediate impact on those living in one currency with income in another, the reality is that the sort of fluctuations we are seeing now can be absorbed by many in a variety of ways.

Of course in the longer term it may be that it is a combination of factors may make a particular strategy less attractive, but it is unlikely that there will be dramatic changes at a personal level. After all bringing it back to liveaboards, there has always been a cycle where people adopt that lifestyle because it suits them and conditions are favourable, then change tack after a few years because circumstances change.

 

[Daydream believer]

Assumptions again.
Housing/education was PAID FOR.
And so was health care: NHS through tax (just like anyone else) and topped up with a private - paid for - health insurance.

roads, rail, rates education inc private all partially subsidised by tax payers.
The point is that i just picked a couple of items . You benefited in some way

 

[GrahamM376]

You are right. Nobody really knows what will happen as the vote was about principles rather than policies. We are now beginning to see the differences in approach from the various contender for PM, but it is likely to take months for a basic negotiating position to emerge and then 2 years or more before the final deal is done.

I would hope that any negotiations with EC are handled by an all party committee and party politics kept out. Only problem there of course is the leader of the opposition is as much use as a chocolate teapot.

 

[Kelpie]

Obviously you are not the average EU migrant type are you.
The normal type will claim what they can ...human nature and send the child benefit back to Lithuania.....[other EU countries are available].
Obviously you would have passed the points system many of the others might not.
Disappointed Boris pulled out..Anyone else?

Study after study confirms that immigrants claim significantly less in benefits than natives do.
Our tabloid press helps to sustain the false impression that a life on benefits is some sort of hugh heffner-esque non stop party. I have a friend who relies on benefits (in his case, carers' allowance to look after his wife who is in recovery from a brain tumour) and it is not a lot of fun. He is effectively a 24/7 nurse but costs the taxpayer something like £70 a week. Seems good value to me.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

roads, rail, rates education inc private all partially subsidised by tax payers.
The point is that i just picked a couple of items . You benefited in some way

This is a very, patronising approach; we must also consider that the UK has gained from these individuals; the highly paid professions welcome individuals who specialise in certain fields, because the UK needs the expertise, as do other countries.

 

[Koeketiene]

roads, rail, rates education inc private all partially subsidised by tax payers.
The point is that i just picked a couple of items . You benefited in some way

We also pay tax. So your point is...??

 

[Bobc]

Study after study confirms that immigrants claim significantly less in benefits than natives do.
Our tabloid press helps to sustain the false impression that a life on benefits is some sort of hugh heffner-esque non stop party. I have a friend who relies on benefits (in his case, carers' allowance to look after his wife who is in recovery from a brain tumour) and it is not a lot of fun. He is effectively a 24/7 nurse but costs the taxpayer something like £70 a week. Seems good value to me.

The whole thing about migrants coming over and claiming benefits is a big red herring. Most of them come over view a wish to work. they have not been brought-up in a nanny state where money and housing is provided, they have been brought up to learn that it you want it, you go and earn it.

The problem here is that because they are keen (even desparate) for work, they will work long hours for very low pay, which either forces the UK citizon to match them (and have to claim top-up benefits), or forces them to lose their job altogether and then claim beneifts.

So, also the line peddled that "imigrants contirbute more then they take" although true, is misleading, because for every low-paid imigrant working, there is a UK citizen on benefits.

 

[Koeketiene]

So, also the line peddled that "imigrants contirbute more then they take" although true, is misleading, because for every low-paid imigrant working, there is a UK citizen on benefits.

1. Isn't that simply a case of 'market forces' - so beloved by the true blue tory brigade?
2. Not every EU migrant in this country is employed in some low-paid menial job.

 

[Oldfellah]

The whole thing about migrants coming over and claiming benefits is a big red herring. Most of them come over view a wish to work. they have not been brought-up in a nanny state where money and housing is provided, they have been brought up to learn that it you want it, you go and earn it.

The problem here is that because they are keen (even desparate) for work, they will work long hours for very low pay, which either forces the UK citizon to match them (and have to claim top-up benefits), or forces them to lose their job altogether and then claim beneifts.

So, also the line peddled that "imigrants contirbute more then they take" although true, is misleading, because for every low-paid imigrant working, there is a UK citizen on benefits.

It is also worth noting that in some many area's employers are struggling to fill vacancies. If you look at the attached article it becomes clear that skilled labor is in shortage and in fact in many industries vacancies cannot be filled due to lack of skill, interest or suitable candidates. The UK citizens on benefits are not necessarily potential workers for a variety of reasons. Having said that I had better qualify the statement by saying that in many area's we have good honest workers now on benefit due to the closure of heavy manufacturing in the UK. It has nothing to do with immigration. The loss of ship building, mining, steel works, etc, etc is the cause of a great many hard working people being on benefits. Your comment regarding low-paid immigrant workers forgets that the minimum wage applies to all, not just UK citizens.

Article - https://www.theguardian.com/busines...struggling-recruit-skilled-workers-eef-report

 

[Flynnbarr]

OR4751 you and your family have done very well out of being in the EU,good for you,not a problem.
In your world all was good,for many for others it has not been.Maybe you don't realise,you did after all predict I believe 65/35 for remain!
I was on a site on Saturday watching 7 Romanian plasterers.They didn't work any harder or faster than British plasterers I have seen.What they can do is work for less wages as all 7 live in one house,share the bills and run one motor.Could you tell me how a British worker bringing up a family with a mortgage / rent to pay along with bills can compete with that?

Maybe you and others on here have been insulated from it but this leave vote has been coming for a very long time,away from YBW forums/The Home Counties/the BBC there are some very happy people who are not anti European but anti EU.
A very simple take on it would be if the middle classes had been affected by immigration as badly as the working classes this issue would never been allowed to get this much out of hand.
Remind me again how much the Labour Party and civil servants underestimated the numbers of people that came over in the initial free for all that we could have opted out of but didn't?

 

[Koeketiene]

OR4751 you and your family have done very well out of being in the EU,good for you,not a problem.
In your world all was good,for many for others it has not been.Maybe you don't realise,you did after all predict I believe 65/35 for remain!

Yep - I did get that wrong (admitted such in a post the next day).

I was on a site on Saturday watching 7 Romanian plasterers.They didn't work any harder or faster than British plasterers I have seen.What they can do is work for less wages as all 7 live in one house,share the bills and run one motor.Could you tell me how a British worker bringing up a family with a mortgage / rent to pay along with bills can compete with that?

Well, there is an EU directive about minimum wage, etc... but... the UK opted out.
Consecutive UK governments have always argued in favour of 'cheap labour'.
You can not have your cake and eat it.

 

[Flynnbarr]

Yep - I did get that wrong (admitted such in a post the next day).



Well, there is an EU directive about minimum wage, etc... but... the UK opted out.
Consecutive UK governments have always argued in favour of 'cheap labour'.
You can not have your cake and eat it.

In the real world of site price work EU directives mean diddly squat.
There has been no cake for a long time if you are competing directly against what I have described.

 

[Jamesuk]

David Cameron for European Union President... junker to Junk

 

[Euphonyx]

Can we hear the views from the non British, in this forum? or from the British of foreign descent, please.
I, personally, heard enough from the xenophobics, and the nonsense they have come up with. We are lucky enough to have an interest in a sport, yachting and sailing, that is sociable, involves all nationalities, languages and skin shades; yacht racing also follows the principle "let the best man win". Also, when I go to someone else's country, I want to feel safe and secured and visa-versa, we have now taken several steps backwards.

This thread and poll has been an eye opener for me and very sad to hear of how many people amongst us, hide their one sided views, I wonder if these people would be better off and happier moving altogether to a different planet.

The Irish are in deep. We have invested an awful lot in our relationship with the UK. This University going generation is the first that has no historical baggage. The reintroduction of a hard border could bring old grievances into sharp relief, which would be horrible. The fear here is that it will drop old baggage into the laps of twenty something innocents.

On a World stage you really dont want to know what outsiders are thinking... Turkeys and Christmas come to mind....

 

[Neil]

The Irish are in deep. We have invested an awful lot in our relationship with the UK. This University going generation is the first that has no historical baggage. The reintroduction of a hard border could bring old grievances into sharp relief, which would be horrible. The fear here is that it will drop old baggage into the laps of twenty something innocents.

On a World stage you really dont want to know what outsiders are thinking... Turkeys and Christmas come to mind....

I've lived in Dublin for 36 years and support the EU, despite its (minor) deficiencies. Yet, my brother, university educated, from the same North of England background, and has lived in the SE corner for as long, voted to leave. He described an EU that was completely unrecognisable to me. He trotted out phrases and beliefs that he must have soaked up from decades of media distortion. "Eurocrats, with their snouts in the trough" - that is not the way he talks.

The Martin Fletcher article, describing unrelenting and unfounded media hostility over decades, initiated by Boris Johnson, latched onto by the rest of the print media and pandering to right wing preconceptions is quite believable. The whole milieu in the UK surrounding the EU has led to this result and it's unfounded.

I can imagine the other 27, while preferring the UK to be in, will get on with the job and at least think they won't have to listen to the UK bellyaching about every little thing anymore. The Irish situation is quite different. A much greater % of our trade goes to the UK. Most of what we export to Europe goes through the UK. We have free movement to/from Europe; will the UK then expect to close the land border, in order to prevent free movement of Europeans and goods from South to North? Build a wall? Just think - if the UK devolves to WTO tariffs, they pay to export, but instead of the south paying their tariffs, they just walk their cows across the field into the North and who is the wiser?

The whole thing is a disaster.

 

[Bobc]

1. Isn't that simply a case of 'market forces' - so beloved by the true blue tory brigade?

You could call it that, but I would call it modern-day slavery. There's more to likfe than just money you know, there's quality of life, and the reason for the current pushback is that the few have become alarmingly rich at the expense of the many.

 

[GrahamM376]

Well, there is an EU directive about minimum wage, etc... but... the UK opted out.
Consecutive UK governments have always argued in favour of 'cheap labour'. You can not have your cake and eat it.

Cheap labour? UK minimum wage is higher than many other countries for instance here where its around €600 per month.

Problem we have is that for some, benefits are higher than wages allowing too many Brits not to work for a living.

 

[Bobc]

Cheap labour? UK minimum wage is higher than many other countries for instance here where its around €600 per month.

Problem we have is that for some, benefits are higher than wages allowing too many Brits not to work for a living.

It's not just about the cost of labour (although this does come into it as our cost of living/housing is high), but it's also about working conditions. My youngest works in a hotel in the conferencing division. She often has to work 12-14 hour shifts, with no breaks and no food. The hotel's view is that if she walks, then there are no shortage of Eastern Europeans to take her place. So she essentially has no rights and is treated like shit. Nobody will shop the hotel to the authorities for risk of losing their job. If there wasn't a ready supply of people willing to take these jobs on that basis and put up with being treated like that, then the hotel would have to start valuing the staff a little bit more and looking after them better.

 

[Biggles Wader]

It's not just about the cost of labour (although this does come into it as our cost of living/housing is high), but it's also about working conditions. My youngest works in a hotel in the conferencing division. She often has to work 12-14 hour shifts, with no breaks and no food. The hotel's view is that if she walks, then there are no shortage of Eastern Europeans to take her place. So she essentially has no rights and is treated like shit. Nobody will shop the hotel to the authorities for risk of losing their job. If there wasn't a ready supply of people willing to take these jobs on that basis and put up with being treated like that, then the hotel would have to start valuing the staff a little bit more and looking after them better.

Ironically there are EU regulations banning those sort of working conditions,specifically the working time directive,but we have just voted to leave all that.

 

[PotatoNavigator]

Ironically there are EU regulations banning those sort of working conditions,specifically the working time directive,but we have just voted to leave all that.

Except a lot of companies (mine included) add a little note in that contract which states that 'the employee agrees that the nature of the work is such that it falls under section 20 of the working time regulations". This clause basically makes the whole kit and caboodle null.