Hydrogen power

[AntarcticPilot]

Hydrogen is the very devil to store - it leaks through almost anything. The only reasonable ways to store it are as liquid, or in solution. The pressurised gas is extremely difficult to store.

 

[Oily Rag]

?Instead of storing sunlight with all its complications, could I suggest that we could store wind energy by winding up a few thousand rubber bands. I'll leave the minor details to others to flesh out.

I've always thought engineers make too much fuss about practicalities.?

Best wishes to all. ??

 

[stuartwineberg]

I'm with Lustyd on this.
How many boats sit in the marina all week, or for a couple of weeks and are then used for a day / weekend?
I would say the vast majority fall into this category, and for that use case this would be a viable approach once the generation process becomes viable.
JCB are spending millions on Hydrogen generation / storage and hydrogen engines as electric engines are not suitable for building sites / roadways etc. They see hydrogen as the future.
JCB.com | Hydrogen

An alternative would be that the Marinas invest in the generation / storage facilities and we go to the fuel berth to replenish. Or maybe a combination? Generate what you can and top up from the marina.

Slightly off topic but there is an excellent YouTube video interview of Lord Bamford discussing their rationale for pushing hydrogen. It’s aimed at, as has been said, heavy plant running 24/7 in shifts where downtime to recharge electric isn’t feasible

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Bamford love him or hate him is an astute businessman and has successfully driven JCB into the truly international company that it is now making inroads into the truly heavy plant market. He clearly or rather his development engineers and research department see that there is a future for Hydrogen driven plant and I rather suspect that it will as the major Japanese car manufacturers do will eventually play an increasing part if not the dominant part in domestic and commercial vehicles.
The question mark surrounds the production and distribution which is slowly, very slowly being addressed the danger being that EV with charging points gets too much of a head start and hydrogen "propulsion" becomes one of those good ideas that get left on the shelf. However I believe that ultimately the EV as it is at present will be an evolutionary dead end or at least the large batteries that power the motors will and other fuels be they hydrogen or ammonia will form the energy reservoirs that provide the power to drive the motors so that whilst investing in EV production manufacturers are hedging their bets because it should be possible to swop out the batteries and charging systems for fuel tanks and fuel cells.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Bamford love him or hate him is an astute businessman and has successfully driven JCB into the truly international company that it is now making inroads into the truly heavy plant market. He clearly or rather his development engineers and research department see that there is a future for Hydrogen driven plant and I rather suspect that it will as the major Japanese car manufacturers do will eventually play an increasing part if not the dominant part in domestic and commercial vehicles.
The question mark surrounds the production and distribution which is slowly, very slowly being addressed the danger being that EV with charging points gets too much of a head start and hydrogen "propulsion" becomes one of those good ideas that get left on the shelf. However I believe that ultimately the EV as it is at present will be an evolutionary dead end or at least the large batteries that power the motors will and other fuels be they hydrogen or ammonia will form the energy reservoirs that provide the power to drive the motors so that whilst investing in EV production manufacturers are hedging their bets because it should be possible to swop out the batteries and charging systems for fuel tanks and fuel cells.

I agree that fuel cells are a more elegant solution, but hydrogen isn't the only or even the preferred feed for them. Ammonia is one; easily liquefied and transported and non-flammable; it has a lot going for it. There's also a lot of work going into fuel cell designs which can accept a wide range of feedstocks; these should be much less delicate than the present generation.

A fuel cell is basically carrying out an oxidation reaction in such a manner as to produce an electrical current. So in principle, any fluid or liquid that can be oxidised in an energy releasing reaction is potentially feedstock for a fuel cell.

 

[andsarkit]

There must be an easier way.

Wind ship

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I agree that fuel cells are a more elegant solution, but hydrogen isn't the only or even the preferred feed for them. Ammonia is one; easily liquefied and transported and non-flammable; it has a lot going for it. There's also a lot of work going into fuel cell designs which can accept a wide range of feedstocks; these should be much less delicate than the present generation.

A fuel cell is basically carrying out an oxidation reaction in such a manner as to produce an electrical current. So in principle, any fluid or liquid that can be oxidised in an energy releasing reaction is potentially feedstock for a fuel cell.

That has all the makings of a "Lakesailor" ?

You may have failed to notice that somewhere towards the end of my rambling I did mention ammonia and have done so on many previous occasions? Additionally although you are not expected to know it but it has been mentioned periodically I am by education a chemist.?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

There must be an easier way.
View attachment 125369
Wind ship

Nice bit of photoshopping

 

[Graham_Wright]

Pretty big commitment!
British firm JCB signs multibillion-dollar deal to import green hydrogen

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Pretty big commitment!
British firm JCB signs multibillion-dollar deal to import green hydrogen

They will recoup the money as they will be the ones to supply to their customers there will be little upfront investment other than the initial storage facility the onsite customer storage will almost certainly be either rented from JCB or purchased directly. As I said Bamford is a very astute businessman the multibillion-dollar deal is what will be paid over the lifetime of the imports.

 

[saab96]

Of course its better to burn hydrogen than diesel. Imagine if we could convert the engines we already have in boats and cars from diesel to hydrogen. We wouldn’t need to damage the environment by buying millions of brand new electric vehicles if we could convert our old vehicles. We can. Soon, I hope. Why doesn’t this idea get more publicity? Is there already an electric lobby among the big car manufacturers?

Hydrogen Vehicle Conversion | Truro, Cornwall.

 

[Sandy]

Does anybody know of a solar panel material that could be made into sails?

 

[srm]

Just had a thought on powering a boat. Given the idle to in use ratio of boats, and the proliferation of solar it seems like it might make sense to use electrolysis to produce hydrogen which can then power the boat instead of diesel. Wikipedia suggests around 40kWh/kg which means that a 1KW panel might make a kg every 5 days, equivalent to around 5l petrol. Given that the power is otherwise wasted it might be a reasonable approach since even a small motorboat could fit 2-3kW of panels which ought to produce enough juice for the weekend trip out. The water can obviously come from the sea, albeit via a small watermaker, but the quantity required would be tiny so could theoretically all fit in a compactish unit.

An interesting idea. Please report back with real world performance results when you have built a working system.

 

[Mistroma]

Does anybody know of a solar panel material that could be made into sails?

I think most of the technology was based on brittle things, even the semi-flexible ones. Fully flexible will evolve but it is more logical for investment to focus on static installations initially. I think different substrates will become cheaper in future.

Sails as solar panels would need to be really tough, very flexible and cheap. I spend most of my time at anchor with sails stowed and it would be limiting to only get power when sailing. Great for long distance sailing but a niche market within a niche market.

Perhaps someone will stumble on a material that's better suited to sails than current material and also happens to produce electricity. Now that would be a revolution. Who wouldn't want solar as a by-product of cheaper sails. Not holding my breath.

 

[Praxinoscope]

I hope the ships that will be transporting JCB’s ‘Green Hydrogen’ all the way from Australia will be hydrogen powered, rather than using fossil fuels, otherwise the green credentials start to look a bit optomstic.
But good on JCB for investing in hydrogen power.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

That has all the makings of a "Lakesailor" ?

You may have failed to notice that somewhere towards the end of my rambling I did mention ammonia and have done so on many previous occasions? Additionally although you are not expected to know it but it has been mentioned periodically I am by education a chemist.?

And I can understand chemists fairly well ? I did part 1A chemistry in the Nat Sci Tripos; my late wife had a PhD in electrochemistry, and we could hold intelligent conversations on chemistry. But my understanding of fuel cells comes from correcting research papers about them, and I have to be careful what I say as I work under non-disclosure terms. I think we both agree that for practical reasons, hydrogen is unlikely to be the fuel of the future; there are far more practical alternatives that don't require cryogenic storage or extreme high pressures, and which don't leak through the walls of storage vessels ?

 

[t21]

Currently...

Hum bit dark and pessimistic? Oil availability is way over 50years. Much better prospect than larking around with hydrogen gas

 

[Fr J Hackett]

And I can understand chemists fairly well ? I did part 1A chemistry in the Nat Sci Tripos; my late wife had a PhD in electrochemistry, and we could hold intelligent conversations on chemistry. But my understanding of fuel cells comes from correcting research papers about them, and I have to be careful what I say as I work under non-disclosure terms. I think we both agree that for practical reasons, hydrogen is unlikely to be the fuel of the future; there are far more practical alternatives that don't require cryogenic storage or extreme high pressures, and which don't leak through the walls of storage vessels ?

I am not so sure about hydrogens future. Toyota and Honda for two have fleets of hydrogen fuelled cars and taxis running you can even get hydrogen on tap in the UK There are trains running on it and commercial vehicles it just needs a push. However as we both know there are other energy storage mediums that are in development that for several reasons could leapfrog hydrogen. What I am more convinced about is that big battery EVs are not the final solution just a stepping stone.
I am not that convinced about storage nightmares either, hydrogen is commonly stored and transported both at high pressure and cryogenically and has been for decades.

 

[oldbloke]

Town gas was approx 50% hydrogen and 50% carbon monoxide. We managed to use it and store it for 150 years without much difficulty +/- the odd head in the oven.

 

[Mistroma]

I agree that fuel cells are a more elegant solution, but hydrogen isn't the only or even the preferred feed for them. Ammonia is one; easily liquefied and transported and non-flammable; it has a lot going for it. There's also a lot of work going into fuel cell designs which can accept a wide range of feedstocks; these should be much less delicate than the present generation.

A fuel cell is basically carrying out an oxidation reaction in such a manner as to produce an electrical current. So in principle, any fluid or liquid that can be oxidised in an energy releasing reaction is potentially feedstock for a fuel cell.

I think the alternatives are really just ways of increasing the energy density of gaseous hydrogen. Liquefication is one method, chemical conversion or adsorption on a substrate are others.

Ammonia production is one method and there are quite a few other chemical hydrides, metal hydrides etc. available.

The trick is to find the most efficient option. Hydrogen is more of a battery technology than a fuel. It takes energy to produce and then you lose some converting it to a denser storage medium. Methanol fuelled cells obviously release carbon dioxide and that matches the amount used to create the methanol. The trick is to avoid use of fossil fuel in methanol production. I don't know the current state of play but imagine there must be a lot of investment in that process.

Battery EVs are running around now and have a head start. I think Fr J Hackett is probably correct about battery EVs being a stepping stone. Replacements are likely to be hydrogen based (e.g. NH3). Of course the best technology doesn't always win and a lot depends on market share. Beta-max was technically superior to VHS, Commodore Amiga was technically superior to IBM PC and neither one survived. Of course the competition was better marketed and used roughly similar technology. I think hydrogen fuel might be a big enough "battery technology" step change to have a chance of eventual success. A lot depends on the head start battery EVs have and future advances in battery technology.