st599
Well-Known Member
The only 2 strokes you can buy in the EU and UK are ones with ECUs to meet emissions regulations. They're not available in small sizes.
How would spend £200K and £1400 per month to buy a bluewater yacht to liveaboard and sail / maybe circumnavigate for years to come?
- Thread starter Rob44
- Start date
Rob44
New Member
Haha, no, I’m just thinking the ability to do such work could prove very useful. I’ve already assumed much of what you’re saying though, and regarding hold-alls and medicals, I’m already quite familiar with those aspects
Tranona
Well-Known Member
When I was young we used to get lots of people in a Mini! Not sure why you have difficulty in accepting that people are different as are the places they sail. We (5 of us) tried both and everybody preferred the Bavaria. After 20 years of ownership of 2 of them would not change my views. Having said that suspect if would had followed our original plan and bought the Moody in the UK and used it there before going to the Med I would like you be defending it. It was actually taking 3 charter holidays in different boats that changed us. Plus I was disappointed with the condition of the half dozen or so Moodys that we looked at in view of the prices asked.After 23 years with the boat, I don't recognise your description. Having had two aft and two centre cockpit boats, still prefer the latter and see plenty of them around Algarve and western Med. Like you, we could have bought new at the time but preferred older. Cramped, yes possibly if we had more than the 12 on board in the photo.
Just as an aside probably the worst bit about the Moody was stern to mooring. not only was it poor in reverse compared with the Bavaria, but higher windage meant more affected by the frequent strong crosswinds in the Ionian and clambering over the aft cabin/deck and down to the relatively small platform to both deal with stern lines or go ashore was not popular with my crew, even the young agile ones. On the other hand the Bavaria is straight walk through from the cockpit and the helm has only to turn around to hand lines or even step ashore. That made it relatively easy for just my wife and I to moor - she on anchor duty up front and me steering and stepping ashore at the rear. Or even single handed controlling the anchor with the remote from the helm. Try that in a centre cockpit boat!
Really no surprise that just about nobody makes centre cockpit boats under 12m any more. They were products of their times and predominately N European orientated. Nice and cosy down below in in a Scandinavian or West coast of Scotland anchorage but not at their best in most hot climates.
Rob44
New Member
Thank you so much Baggywrinkle, I hugely appreciate your extensive reply - so much to now watch and consider
siwhi
Well-Known Member
We sailed as a family of 4 from Glasgow to Sydney between 2016 and 2020 and sold just as the Covid lockdown hit Australia on a Moody 44 shoal draft. For us it was the perfect boat, so many small things that added up to make it so. Details such as a hatch in the transom right behind the master bunk, so you could see out to the quayside or anyone boarding from your bed, or the layout, the spec of the deck gear, etc, etc, made it ideal.
While I agree with many here that many other boats would also be well suited to your need, and condition is king, and that perhaps a smaller boat would be better for a single hander, I did many offshore passages single handed without issue. In fact the boat looked after me perfectly. Obviously older boats need more maintenance as a general rule, but I have a strong bias towards British, Scandinavian or Dutch built boats of a certain age (or build spec). Not everyone here will agree, but wandering around boatyards all over the world and talking to owners, only reaffirms my bias in this respect.
Getting the skills and experience you need can be sped up by doing a delivery or two. The skippers are usually very experienced and happy to have a motivated and engaged crew.
In my view there are only a few places in the world with really excellent cruising. Everyone has their own preference, but time and again the South Pacific will be rated the highest by anyone who has sailed there. I would buy a boat in Tahiti and spend a few years in the South Pacific if I could (Raiatea-yacht.com - Broker | Bateau d'occasion à Tahiti, Nouvelle-Calédonie et Pacifique). The Caribbean and Eastern Med are also fine, but for me they pale in comparison (but maybe that's because I've worked in both as a skipper). Then come the other beautiful but often cold areas, where cruising can be limited to summer. So consider buying a boat 'in location' and learning there.
And I would definitely keep a property in the UK or some money back for one. You'll pass many wrecks and think that could easily have been us. £1400 a month for a solo sailor should be OK, but that's without much luxury. I'd say £500 for the boat per month is about right on average if you leave with everything working (to replace broken bits, but you can get used items cheap in many places). You can easily get crew for passages if needed, there are plenty of hitchhikers hanging around passage marinas, and it can be fun for a while, but having a boat you can single hand is a must as if you're like me, you'll need your own time and space.
Just go. You can sell and re buy if you get the choice wrong.
While I agree with many here that many other boats would also be well suited to your need, and condition is king, and that perhaps a smaller boat would be better for a single hander, I did many offshore passages single handed without issue. In fact the boat looked after me perfectly. Obviously older boats need more maintenance as a general rule, but I have a strong bias towards British, Scandinavian or Dutch built boats of a certain age (or build spec). Not everyone here will agree, but wandering around boatyards all over the world and talking to owners, only reaffirms my bias in this respect.
Getting the skills and experience you need can be sped up by doing a delivery or two. The skippers are usually very experienced and happy to have a motivated and engaged crew.
In my view there are only a few places in the world with really excellent cruising. Everyone has their own preference, but time and again the South Pacific will be rated the highest by anyone who has sailed there. I would buy a boat in Tahiti and spend a few years in the South Pacific if I could (Raiatea-yacht.com - Broker | Bateau d'occasion à Tahiti, Nouvelle-Calédonie et Pacifique). The Caribbean and Eastern Med are also fine, but for me they pale in comparison (but maybe that's because I've worked in both as a skipper). Then come the other beautiful but often cold areas, where cruising can be limited to summer. So consider buying a boat 'in location' and learning there.
And I would definitely keep a property in the UK or some money back for one. You'll pass many wrecks and think that could easily have been us. £1400 a month for a solo sailor should be OK, but that's without much luxury. I'd say £500 for the boat per month is about right on average if you leave with everything working (to replace broken bits, but you can get used items cheap in many places). You can easily get crew for passages if needed, there are plenty of hitchhikers hanging around passage marinas, and it can be fun for a while, but having a boat you can single hand is a must as if you're like me, you'll need your own time and space.
Just go. You can sell and re buy if you get the choice wrong.
Rob44
New Member
Thanks Siwhi, such a long voyage from Glasgow to Sydney sounds like a fascinating seafaring adventure. Did you ever blog or publish anything about it anywhere? I can't help but think it would great to read about it all, and I of course appreciate reading your thoughts and advice; thank you so much.
I have only vaguely considered the idea of buying in French Polynesia. I was only watching a couple of lads YouTube their experience of buying an older catamaran out there just the other evening, but for me there's this huge appeal around actually sailing there, and all the places to visit and explore and experience en-route. Perhaps similar to why you might've sailed from Glasgow to Sydney?
Graham376
Well-Known Member
You always fall for the bait
I have no problems with whatever boat people buy, I bet there a few folks out there who don't like mine or your choice, that's life. When we made our last choice it was 23 years ago and no doubt production boats have changed since then.
Funny that our boat has everything listed as desirable on the OP's #60 post, except for the Hydrovane.
Cheers, G.
siwhi
Well-Known Member
Yes, I understand, it's the journey there that makes the adventure. But there's a tension between time allocation in where you find yourself today and where you know will be amazing. Atlantic Europe is under appreciated in my view, the Caribbean is easy to spend time in, but with diminishing returns, and there are loads of places I wish we'd gone but didn't stop at like Costa Rica. But the South Pacific needs years to explore.
Yes, we had a blog which the kids did, but I stopped paying for the website last year and it's closed as we didn't need it really. We have the pictures, charts, friends and memories. A pity of course, not to be able to share it, but there you go.
The shoal draft was an advantage a couple of times, as we could anchor right up the beach, or back up to some quays to the amazement of some, and it sailed fine (it points maybe 5 degrees lower to windward), but it wouldn't be a big factor in my decision making really, other things carry more weight.
I enjoy answering any questions, like we all do here, so don't hold back if you have any.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
I have partly answered that in post#63.
My situation 25 years ago was very different from yours. At the peak of my career, financially secure for a long retirement, children gone so able to plan well ahead within a generous budget without affecting our house or long term investments. It was popular then to do a circuit through Europe - down the French canals to the Med and either go east for lazy sunshine holidays or back round the outside for a bit of excitement and challenge. The Moody we first considered was good for the first part as like Graham's many had shoal draft Scheel keels that allowed passage through the canals. We knew enough about the first part from spending a lot of time in France, but had no experience of the Med hence chartering to find out what it was like before committing
As I said earlier it was then we realised that the Moody was not a good choice for drifting around the Med (and met many other Brits who had taken their boats there say the same). Also the last few years of working meant lots of pressure and time spent abroad casting doubt on the wisdom of starting from the UK and gradually working our way down to the Med either through the canals or round the outside. On the other hand being able to take 2 or 3 holidays a year out there until we retired was attractive. So we bought a new Bavaria 37 under a charter management scheme which gave us the holiday use and a ready to go boat when we were able to spend more time out there. We specified a shoal keel so that we had the option of coming back to UK via the Canal du Midi. For the first 9 years it worked out well. 7 years running it as a charter yacht then taking it over and spending more time on it with a view to starting the trip back in year 11 or 12 Unfortunately unexpected health problems put the lid on that in 2010 and I sailed it across to Spain then back to UK by truck as I had run out of time before the big OP to do the outside bit. Kept the boat in the UK for 4 years until my health improved to the point that I could justfy buying a new boat, another Bavaria, bit smaller and easier to handle for a not too active 70+ year old.
Going this route is what I mean by a boat for this type of project being a means not an end. If I stayed in the UK, or chose to go round the outside the Moody would have been perhaps a better choice, not least because they were more easily available than "modern" boats at the time. However, once the focus changed to majority Med use then the Bavaria (or similar from Beneteau or Jeanneau) were much more suited. I understand why people question their ability offshore, particularly the smaller ones compared with similar size boats from an earlier time. They are lighter and livelier and can become uncomfortable in heavy weather, particularly if things like biminis and stern gantries are added but they are tough and don't break. 7 years chartering in mine and nothing of consequence broke or fell apart. I sold it to a couple who did a modest refit and sailed it back to Spain where they kept it until recently. Last photos I saw when it was sold it looked as good as when I had it and they got about £10k more for it than they paid me. You will find Bavarias all round the world giving good service, many ex charter boats. In the early 2000s it was common for Australians and Kiwis to buy ex charter boats in Greece, mostly 45'+, spend a couple of years around the Med and then sail home to sell and recoup the costs of their project. Several went the hard way round Cape Horn.
One thing often forgotten is that when cruising you spend maybe 85% + of your time at anchor or moored up and a modern boat generally wins for this. In the Med of your 15% on the move, more than half will be under engine - less so obviously when open ocean sailing. Of the 15% on the move unless you go high latitudes, particularly southern maybe 1% or the 15% will be in heavy weather because if you are sensible you will plan your passages to avoid potential heavy weather. Much of the focus on boat choice is on heavy weather ability because that was important 60 years ago when mass ocean voyaging started. hence the attraction for some of heavy older boats which may be better. However if you look at the boats that have been designed in the last 30 years specifically for ocean voyagers, few follow that model. One caveat, though is that few are smaller than 12m and in the 10m size which is practical for singlehanders older boats are arguably better. I would be perhaps more comfortable with my current boat a well known 10m old heavy long keeler than my similar size last Bavaria. However I would be cursing its uncomfortable cockpit, poor sailing performance, cramped accommodation and amount of work required to keep it up to scratch.
I have deliberately ignored budget but as that grows so do your choices. The options at £20k are limited, but people do go off in boats that cost even less than that to buy. £50k starts to give you s real choice between old and new, double that and the choice becomes bewildering. Hence the importance of being clear about what you plan ro do and what you need to look for to achieve that.
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