How would spend £200K and £1400 per month to buy a bluewater yacht to liveaboard and sail / maybe circumnavigate for years to come?

Rob44 said:
I think I will want all the bits of paper for reasons mentioned earlier, but I'm currently looking at different course providers other than the UKSA mentioned earlier and how they differ. One I seen had a pre-course requisite of 100 miles which made excellent sense and something I'm now considering how best to achieve. I figure I need to look at the links for basic short crewing and seeing what's available there, or sign up for a short course, however, if any kind person would like to offer me some sailing experience at a weekend I'd be more than happy to cover any costs and not bombard them continually with inane questions :)
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I think you are over thinking it. You don't need bits of paper.
Just buy a cheapish boat and start sailing. You'll soon find out if you like it and all you theoretical idwas in what works and doesn't will disappear.
 
On the subject of what you want and what you eventually get, here is the real-world result of the tick-list I posted earlier.

The boat I found (see here) ended up with the following compromises .... there is a lot of red. Many are now resolved, but some are down to the boat age/design and I'll just have to live with them.

Dealbreakers … MUST HAVE!

12-13,99m LOA - ✅ ended up at 13,70m
White textured gelcoat decks. - ✅
Dry, clean bilges, no water under the floor, no leaks into bilges. - ✅
At least 3 private sleeping cabins (bunks OK) - sleep 6 in comfort without saloon. - ✅
Clean contemporary interior - must be bright and airy with plenty of windows and light - no dark wood. - ✅
Freezer or space for a freezer. - ✅ - One chest fridge and one upright, chest freezes just, but needs more insulation/new compressor maybe?
Chart Table/Desk - big enough for laptop/tablet. - ✅
No more than 2 heads. - ✅
Separate shower cubicle that can be closed off - preferably no sink or toilet in shower area. - ✅
Roller furling main - furling from cockpit. - ✅ - Bonus, electric winches for main furling, electric furling on genoa.
Twin helm with easy walkthrough into seating area. - ✅
Big aft cockpit - must seat at least 8 in comfort underway and 10+ for entertaining. - ✅
Big bimini/sprayhood - plenty of shade - ✅
Big, sturdy cockpit table - ✅
Swim platform or sugar scoop stern with swim ladder and shower. - ✅
Space for a Watermaker. - ✅
Engine with enough reserve power/space for additional high-output alternator or room for a generator. - ✅
Mainsheet/Boom clear of cockpit occupants. - ✅
Front Opening Fridge - ✅

Dealbreakers …. MUST NOT HAVE!!!

Teak Deck - ✅
Sun damaged caulking on cockpit teak causing black stains. - ✅
DIY disasters - random equipment/decorations fixed all over the inside of the boat. - ❌ - lots of decorations and "stuff" with carpets, cushions, bearing boat name and logo. After successful removal of everything we are left with a questionable seahorse attached to the bulkhead which we are learning to love.
Screw holes, discoloured veneer, damaged interior wood from removed equipment/decorations, hard use. - ✅
Damp/Mould/Leaks or bad smells. - ✅
Large repairs from accident damage (Grounding/Heavy collision) - ✅
Water damaged or rotten balsa core, exterior screws into balsa core, exposed balsa core, non-original deck fittings. - ✅
Keel problems (leaking or suspect keel bolts - ineffective keel sealant). - ✅ - Bonus, keel is lead.
Moisture in the hull/deck or water ingress in the rudder - ✅
Water stained interior wood or signs of water ingress. - ✅
Leaking windows, vents, fittings. - ❌ despite water test with hose during survey, small drip on one window and a hatch, they will be replaced this season due to crazing.
Failing rudder bearings. - ✅
Engine oil/fluid leaks - ✅
Electrical bodges, DIY amateur wiring - ❌Ended up having to accept that the last owner had fitted some questionable electrical equipment - all removed and replaced.
Solar Panels glued or screwed to deck - holes in deck. - ✅

Wanted features ….

Teak in cockpit (if in good condition) - ✅
4th cabin with bunks. - ❌ - wanted a workshop, will have to dual purpose one of the cabins.
L-shaped galley - ✅
White fiberglass hull, not painted or wrapped. - ✅
Built in last 10 years. - ❌ - she was 16 when we bought her but condition was exceptional.
Master cabin with good view outside. - ✅
Salon convertible to sea berths with lee cloths. - ❌ Could be done but requires mods to table and new cushions.
Main, genoa and code zero sheets/winches accessible from helm. ❌ - Main sheet not at helm, on cabin roof.
Engine control on binnacle, not floor. - ✅
Water Tankage over 400l. - ✅
Fuel tank around 200l. - ✅

Wanted Mods/Extras …. The more the better

Electric or Hydraulic bathing platform. - ✅- Electric with remote control
Big robust arch on stern with dinghy davits, solar, outboard crane. - ❌- now rectified
Babystay fixing point on foredeck. - ❌
Cool box in cockpit or ability to fit one - ✅ - Will fit in table.
Furling Code Zero or equivalent. -❌ - now rectified
Folding Prop. - ✅
Air Conditioning/Heating - ❌- Webasto Diesel Heating
Double anchor roller - ❌
Windlass drum usable with anchor locker closed. - ❌
Midship cleats and gates in guard rails. - ✅
Electric winches . ✅- electric winches for main furling/sheet, electric furling on genoa, electric genoa winches.
Self tacking jib - ❌
Generator or space to fit one. - ✅
Washing machine or space to fit one e.g. Daewoo wall mounted. - ✅
Upgraded engine option - ❌

Not important if reflected in lower price ….

Condition of cooker - As New
Condition of toilets - Electric toilet needed a repair
Condition of sails - Now Replaced
Condition of sprayhood/bimini - Good
Condition of mattresses/upholstery - Excellent
Condition of anchor/chain - Anchor replaced, original SS Chain.
Condition of safety equipment - Thrown away, replaced with my own.
Condition of standing rigging - i.O. according to survey
Condition of running rigging - 80% replaced
Condition of seacocks and through hulls. - Composite TruDesign
Condition of antifouling - replaced
Condition/Age of electrical equipment/instruments - all stripped out an replaced.

Done a fair number of mods, currently looks like this ...

 
Tranona said:
What you read and see is dominated by "heavy is best" for many reasons. First the "bluewater" narrative is dominated by the Anglo Saxon, particularly UK perspective. This is because the early writers and ocean sailors were mostly UK based and for obvious reasons used boats that were either converted fishing vessels or derived from them or pilot boats. Sailing around the UK waters is dominated by windward sailing, often in heavy weather and cold wet conditions, reinforced by racing where both the rules and race courses encouraged good windward performance. "standing up to a blow" "in case we get caught out" "able to heave too" were the sort of qualities that were considered desirable for a good boat. Cabin comforts were secondary and cockpits were as small and cramped as possible to hold the crew. Up to the 1970s just about every boat considered suitable for cruising and to an extent passage racing focused on these qualities. As has been discussed earlier these sorts of conditions only represent a tiny proportion, if any of most bluewater cruising unless you go serious high latitudes Things started to change mid 70s when GRP allowed boats of different shapes and pure cruising boat design moved away from both working boats and to an extent racing boats. In some ways it was the golden age of UK boat building as most of Europe except Scandinavia and maybe Holland lagged well behind UK in terms of leisure boating activity. Many, if not the majority of the boats considered desirable by the bluewater experts date from this period - just 20 years out of 75 years or so of post war leisure boating development.

So, if you are starting from the UK these are the sorts of boats you would choose, partly because that is what everybody else uses and partly because that is what is/was available to buy in the UK. However look across the channel to France and you see a very different picture. There was no tradition there of building heavy displacement boats because their sailing waters are warm, relatively benign. France now dominates the non US ocean sailing scene in all its forms and their boats are very different from anything coming from the UK. In fact there are virtually no builders of cruising boats in the UK now except at the top end. The shift happened around the 1990s. when boats like this theyachtmarket.com/en/boats-for-sale/jeanneau/sun-odyssey-39i/id2841438/ came on the UK market at prices 20-30% lower than similar size boats from UK builders. Hardly surprising that the UK builders gave up trying to compete. This sort of boat is just as capable of bluewater cruising but you don't hear much about them from a UK perspective.

Enough of the history. Despite what the old is better folks say you can't escape the fact that older heavy displacement boats represent a small minority of the boats used for bluewater cruising, except perhaps in the sub 10m size range. Of course people who own them say the qualities that they have are essential and they would not change - as Mandy Rice Davies said "they would say that wouldn't they?" - plus I suspect most have never owned or even sailed anything else. As I suggested in post#69 if you are buying in the UK and are looking at 10m you are mostly stuck with older style boats if on a small budget. Plenty of boats (like mine ) will do the job well in terms of seaworthiness on an all in budget of £30-40k Once you get up to £60k you get a choice of up to 12m and both old style and new like the Jeanneau. As you get to £100k and within 12m the choice of old style boats is much more limited. Remember none have been built for over 30 years but if you are wedded to that style you may well be able to find a really pristine example of a late boat. However just as new boat buyers found 30 years ago French and German boats sold in the UK simply offered better value for money and for ocean cruising more "livable" in warmer, light airs without sacrificing seaworthiness in any meaningful way.

Keep an open mind and look at lots of boats. It is difficult to imagine what it is actually like long distance sailing without doing it, but as many have said the success of such projects is less to do with the boat and more dependent on you, your attitude and the necessary skills you acquire on the way.
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Thanks Tranona, I particularly appreciate these aspects you’ve taken the time to explain.

I wonder if the YouTube algorithm may have picked up on me searching for things like “robust bluewater cruiser” and so on, as much of the commentators in the vids I watch favour the older and heavier displaced bluewater options. I suppose they would though.

It also doesn’t help having recently watched a vid of a couple going to some considerable effort and expense to beef up their 49’ Jeanneau Sun Odyssey DS for an oceanic crossing.

As a further example (of many), I see much said about the safety benefits of a more protected skeg rudder over the performance benefits a spade rudder on a Jeanneau might provide, and such commentary appeals to my sense of safety and independence.

I’m not saying that to contradict your opinion, just to help explain the type of things that my largely uninformed opinion is based on really.

For whatever it’s worth, I think I need to quickly find some work (flying) that enables more time off to get myself the sailing experiences I clearly need. But open mind it most certainly is.
 
Baggywrinkle said:
On the subject of what you want and what you eventually get, here is the real-world result of the tick-list I posted earlier.

The boat I found (see here) ended up with the following compromises .... there is a lot of red. Many are now resolved, but some are down to the boat age/design and I'll just have to live with them.

Dealbreakers … MUST HAVE!

12-13,99m LOA - ✅ ended up at 13,70m
White textured gelcoat decks. - ✅
Dry, clean bilges, no water under the floor, no leaks into bilges. - ✅
At least 3 private sleeping cabins (bunks OK) - sleep 6 in comfort without saloon. - ✅
Clean contemporary interior - must be bright and airy with plenty of windows and light - no dark wood. - ✅
Freezer or space for a freezer. - ✅ - One chest fridge and one upright, chest freezes just, but needs more insulation/new compressor maybe?
Chart Table/Desk - big enough for laptop/tablet. - ✅
No more than 2 heads. - ✅
Separate shower cubicle that can be closed off - preferably no sink or toilet in shower area. - ✅
Roller furling main - furling from cockpit. - ✅ - Bonus, electric winches for main furling, electric furling on genoa.
Twin helm with easy walkthrough into seating area. - ✅
Big aft cockpit - must seat at least 8 in comfort underway and 10+ for entertaining. - ✅
Big bimini/sprayhood - plenty of shade - ✅
Big, sturdy cockpit table - ✅
Swim platform or sugar scoop stern with swim ladder and shower. - ✅
Space for a Watermaker. - ✅
Engine with enough reserve power/space for additional high-output alternator or room for a generator. - ✅
Mainsheet/Boom clear of cockpit occupants. - ✅
Front Opening Fridge - ✅

Dealbreakers …. MUST NOT HAVE!!!

Teak Deck - ✅
Sun damaged caulking on cockpit teak causing black stains. - ✅
DIY disasters - random equipment/decorations fixed all over the inside of the boat. - ❌ - lots of decorations and "stuff" with carpets, cushions, bearing boat name and logo. After successful removal of everything we are left with a questionable seahorse attached to the bulkhead which we are learning to love.
Screw holes, discoloured veneer, damaged interior wood from removed equipment/decorations, hard use. - ✅
Damp/Mould/Leaks or bad smells. - ✅
Large repairs from accident damage (Grounding/Heavy collision) - ✅
Water damaged or rotten balsa core, exterior screws into balsa core, exposed balsa core, non-original deck fittings. - ✅
Keel problems (leaking or suspect keel bolts - ineffective keel sealant). - ✅ - Bonus, keel is lead.
Moisture in the hull/deck or water ingress in the rudder - ✅
Water stained interior wood or signs of water ingress. - ✅
Leaking windows, vents, fittings. - ❌ despite water test with hose during survey, small drip on one window and a hatch, they will be replaced this season due to crazing.
Failing rudder bearings. - ✅
Engine oil/fluid leaks - ✅
Electrical bodges, DIY amateur wiring - ❌Ended up having to accept that the last owner had fitted some questionable electrical equipment - all removed and replaced.
Solar Panels glued or screwed to deck - holes in deck. - ✅

Wanted features ….

Teak in cockpit (if in good condition) - ✅
4th cabin with bunks. - ❌ - wanted a workshop, will have to dual purpose one of the cabins.
L-shaped galley - ✅
White fiberglass hull, not painted or wrapped. - ✅
Built in last 10 years. - ❌ - she was 16 when we bought her but condition was exceptional.
Master cabin with good view outside. - ✅
Salon convertible to sea berths with lee cloths. - ❌ Could be done but requires mods to table and new cushions.
Main, genoa and code zero sheets/winches accessible from helm. ❌ - Main sheet not at helm, on cabin roof.
Engine control on binnacle, not floor. - ✅
Water Tankage over 400l. - ✅
Fuel tank around 200l. - ✅

Wanted Mods/Extras …. The more the better

Electric or Hydraulic bathing platform. - ✅- Electric with remote control
Big robust arch on stern with dinghy davits, solar, outboard crane. - ❌- now rectified
Babystay fixing point on foredeck. - ❌
Cool box in cockpit or ability to fit one - ✅ - Will fit in table.
Furling Code Zero or equivalent. -❌ - now rectified
Folding Prop. - ✅
Air Conditioning/Heating - ❌- Webasto Diesel Heating
Double anchor roller - ❌
Windlass drum usable with anchor locker closed. - ❌
Midship cleats and gates in guard rails. - ✅
Electric winches . ✅- electric winches for main furling/sheet, electric furling on genoa, electric genoa winches.
Self tacking jib - ❌
Generator or space to fit one. - ✅
Washing machine or space to fit one e.g. Daewoo wall mounted. - ✅
Upgraded engine option - ❌

Not important if reflected in lower price ….

Condition of cooker - As New
Condition of toilets - Electric toilet needed a repair
Condition of sails - Now Replaced
Condition of sprayhood/bimini - Good
Condition of mattresses/upholstery - Excellent
Condition of anchor/chain - Anchor replaced, original SS Chain.
Condition of safety equipment - Thrown away, replaced with my own.
Condition of standing rigging - i.O. according to survey
Condition of running rigging - 80% replaced
Condition of seacocks and through hulls. - Composite TruDesign
Condition of antifouling - replaced
Condition/Age of electrical equipment/instruments - all stripped out an replaced.

Done a fair number of mods, currently looks like this ...

Click to expand...
And what a beautiful boat! That’s a great amount of detail and will no doubt be very useful in the future to do something similar, prior to a purchase.

I’m going to make a list myself, now, but primarily for the learning aspects at this stage. I get deciding on what particular boat is like priority Z at the moment.
 
potentillaCO32 said:
I think you are over thinking it. You don't need bits of paper.
Just buy a cheapish boat and start sailing. You'll soon find out if you like it and all you theoretical idwas in what works and doesn't will disappear.
Click to expand...
Perhaps I am, in regard to overthinking, but I’m perfectly comfortable doing so because it enables learning. Learning is my primary aim here, not deciding.

Currently my main focus is switching fire to pretty much gaining experiences/very basic courses though, as you and others suggest, although I appreciate it might appear the focus - from what’s being said here - is on what particular boat and what bits of paper.

I still think the qualifications will be important though (or bits of paper as you refer to them), maybe several years of happy sailing from now, because this whole concept is basically very early retirement for me, but without the finances I’d be comfortable with to do so.

Several years away from flying, along with age, would make going back to that work somewhat difficult. Certainly not impossible. However, if I can instead have some increased ability to do sailing related work, such as yacht delivery, wouldn’t such qualifications be a good thing?

I know the quals / bits of paper aren’t the be-all and end-all in comparison to experience, but I still think both short-term and especially long-term they’ll be worthwhile.

But if it helps, I already know I like sailing having already done a little over the years, and getting myself sailing now IS priority A :)
 
Rob44 said:
Hi Ridgy, I’m West Midlands based, but more than happy to travel.
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I sail out of Holyhead, not a great drive from there but feel free to drop me a message in the spring. Launching mid April then up to Oban in May then back in Holyhead from June.

While I like modern sporty for coastal sailing, for long term cruising I'd want an Oysteresque aft cabin with an island bed. Clambering in to bed is no good.
 
That’s awesome Ridgy, thanks so much! As it happens I spend a lot of my spare time in N.Wales so Holyhead isn’t far at all. I’ll send you a DM now, thanks.
 
Rob44 said:
As a further example (of many), I see much said about the safety benefits of a more protected skeg rudder over the performance benefits a spade rudder on a Jeanneau might provide, and such commentary appeals to my sense of safety and independence.
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You have to set these things in context. If you compared a spade rudder in 1980 with a skeg hung rudder you would be wise to choose the latter. Skegs were a legacy of the switch from full keels to detached fins where each new iteration removed more of the keel area between the main keel and the rudder until the skeg became free standing, supporting the unbalanced rudder to withstand the forces. Spade rudders at the time were often spindly affairs using similar small diameter stocks poorly supported. Gradually skegs evolved to half skegs to get some balance and then with the advent of large diameter stocks and self aligning bearings the efficient strong balanced spades as we now know them became the norm. Skegs look seductively "right" but they are not trouble free. For example while a skeg may deflect debris if ropes or nets do get into the aperture where the prop is it can seize the rudder as well as the prop (guess how I know from personal experience!). Boats with propellers in the gap between the keel and the skeg are even more vulnerable - you would not believe the amount of damage a rope can do if it gets round a propeller on a P bracket and skeg hung rudders often have gaps to the hull or around bearings that are magnets for stray ropes. The old is better don't tell you about these things, partly because they are rare, just as the problems from newer designs are rare. Your comment about beefing up boats reminds me of a long article in PBO many years ago about the amount of beefing up required on a Warrior 35 to stop the forward panels from flexing.

So skegs are there not primarily because of protection but from design development that essentially stopped 40 years ago. There are far more spade rudder cruising boats in use, including bluewater than skeg hung, and although you can find specific issues, for example the failures of composite stocks on certain Hunter Legend boats 20 years ago there does not seem to be any evidence of systemic failures. Much the same with bolt on fin keels. Early on there were problems with some as designers and builders got to grips with what was required to make them strong and secure, but again that was 40 or 50 years ago.

When you are buying in the lower price brackets you are in a sense taking the same decisions as new boat buyers did all those years ago and most would tend to agree that encapsulated keels, long fins, skeg hung rudders heavier displacement etc was a better choice than the fin keel/spade rudder lighter displacement boats of the era. Many of these were derived from the IOR racing rules of the day which led to unmanageable foresail biased rigs, hulls with narrow pointy ends, fat middles and poor stability (penalised by the rules!) Read the Fastnet report for confirmation of how unsuitable these boats were for offshore cruising.

The point I was trying to make in my last post was that when you move up the price point towards £100k you leave that 1980s scene behind and a whole new range of possibilities open up, but you have to look away from most British boats except the handful that staggered on like Vancouver, Victoria Bowman Warrior at the upper end of the market. If you look at the choices for those buying new today (or indeed in the last 15 years or so) you will struggle to find any heavy displacement boats even from the top end builders whose customers have enough money to buy one if it was available.
 
I don’t think anyone has mentioned colour yet? Apologies if they have and I missed it.

I’d suggest staying with a light (white/off white/cream) boat for two reasons; firstly, the dark colours, no matter how lovely they look, do chalk and look tired very quickly, especially in warmer climes. Secondly, the dark coloured hulls get considerably warmer in the climates that you’re considering.

Friends bought a new 45ft French built cruiser with a dark blue hull and recently changed it for a 30 year old Oyster of the same size, similar value and with a white hull. Apart from finding it so much cooler (they’re in the Med’) they couldn’t believe how much more comfortable and less demanding it was to sail and especially, how much more comfortably it sat at anchor in a blow.
 
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Plus 1 for a white hull -even on a larger upmarket vessel with dark hull and AC etc you are also always washing off the salt spray in med anytime you are in a marina with units of time to kill. On smaller boats say a maxi1300 with a dark hull it’s rare you see a unfazed one unless regularly polished. When buying say a Rustler 42 by way on example as you cruising boat I think white hulls are a must. Island packets are fine if you like the cream and spacious forward travelling vessels in a blow.
 
.?
Tranona said:
You have to set these things in context. If you compared a spade rudder in 1980 with a skeg hung rudder you would be wise to choose the latter. Skegs were a legacy of the switch from full keels to detached fins where each new iteration removed more of the keel area between the main keel and the rudder until the skeg became free standing, supporting the unbalanced rudder to withstand the forces. Spade rudders at the time were often spindly affairs using similar small diameter stocks poorly supported. Gradually skegs evolved to half skegs to get some balance and then with the advent of large diameter stocks and self aligning bearings the efficient strong balanced spades as we now know them became the norm. Skegs look seductively "right" but they are not trouble free. For example while a skeg may deflect debris if ropes or nets do get into the aperture where the prop is it can seize the rudder as well as the prop (guess how I know from personal experience!). Boats with propellers in the gap between the keel and the skeg are even more vulnerable - you would not believe the amount of damage a rope can do if it gets round a propeller on a P bracket and skeg hung rudders often have gaps to the hull or around bearings that are magnets for stray ropes. The old is better don't tell you about these things, partly because they are rare, just as the problems from newer designs are rare. Your comment about beefing up boats reminds me of a long article in PBO many years ago about the amount of beefing up required on a Warrior 35 to stop the forward panels from flexing.

So skegs are there not primarily because of protection but from design development that essentially stopped 40 years ago. There are far more spade rudder cruising boats in use, including bluewater than skeg hung, and although you can find specific issues, for example the failures of composite stocks on certain Hunter Legend boats 20 years ago there does not seem to be any evidence of systemic failures. Much the same with bolt on fin keels. Early on there were problems with some as designers and builders got to grips with what was required to make them strong and secure, but again that was 40 or 50 years ago.

When you are buying in the lower price brackets you are in a sense taking the same decisions as new boat buyers did all those years ago and most would tend to agree that encapsulated keels, long fins, skeg hung rudders heavier displacement etc was a better choice than the fin keel/spade rudder lighter displacement boats of the era. Many of these were derived from the IOR racing rules of the day which led to unmanageable foresail biased rigs, hulls with narrow pointy ends, fat middles and poor stability (penalised by the rules!) Read the Fastnet report for confirmation of how unsuitable these boats were for offshore cruising.

The point I was trying to make in my last post was that when you move up the price point towards £100k you leave that 1980s scene behind and a whole new range of possibilities open up, but you have to look away from most British boats except the handful that staggered on like Vancouver, Victoria Bowman Warrior at the upper end of the market. If you look at the choices for those buying new today (or indeed in the last 15 years or so) you will struggle to find any heavy displacement boats even from the top end builders whose customers have enough money to buy one if it was available.
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On the flip side, self aligning bearings are great for the builder. They are cheap but wear is rapid if you are putting the miles in.
We met two Jeaneau 54 owners in Boniare a few years ago. They had both sailed across the pond as part of the ARC. Both boats were 2 years old.
One owner ask me if the boatyard in Curacao is a good yard. Both Jeanneaus needed warranty work. I asked what work and he said rudder bearing replacement. 2 years old and they were worn out. He said that downwind sailing was hard work on the bearings. I couldn't believe he thought that was reasonable.
By comparison, we removed our skeg hung rudder that has 3 bronze bearings. The top two have greasers. We removed the rudder last year for inspection. It didnt appear to have ever been removed before. There was no need since the bearing were perfect. We refitted it with the original bearings. This boat has done 48,000nm in the last 10 years alone. 45 year old boat.
A good engingering friend of mine described self aligning bearings as an abomination. He owns a Sunbeam 44 yacht. He converted his plastic bearings to bronze with a greaser. Both of us do plenty of sailing miles so reliability is a nice attribute to have in a long distance cruising boat.
We see lots of spade rudders removed in the boatyard in the Caribbean, removed for new plastic bearing.
Plastic rudder bearings aren't a show stopper but they are one of the built to a price items common on production boats.
Skegs cost a builder more to engineer so in a cost conscious production boat, a two bearing spade rudder will always prevail.

We have had fish nets ropes catch our skeg twice in the Caribean when sailing between islands. The load on the skeg and rudder combination can be tremendous when an 18 tonne sailboat is brought to a standstill under full sail. There is no slot where such a rope can ride up and catch between rudder and hull. An easy thing to imagine with a spade rudder.
 
Most boats will go most places. The crew….

Money is good stuff. Hang on to as much of it as possible. A solo sailor, or a couple, can be happy and comfortable on a 10m ish boat no problem. You do not need 44 feet. Everything will be heavy, and expensive. You need big expensive winches. Long, thick, expensive ropes. Huge heavy expensive sails. A new impeller for the big heavy engine is expensive. Prices of gear are not proportional to LOA.

Moorings & storage become much more expensive. And less available.

Keep a home in the U.K. or somewhere, ashore.

Do a few short cheap courses now while the prices are low and the weather is bad. Good learning, good value. I would not do that £14k thing. Inappropriate for most people.

Be realistic about who you are, where you are, what you are. A friend’s daughter did some expensive pro courses at UKSA and has had interesting and well paid work on big boats. But she started at 19 years old, and is a very good dinghy sailor. She does not own a boat! It is going to be very very hard to make any meaningful income from sailing for most of us. Maybe the odd interesting trip on an interesting boat, a few ££ for a delivery. Not an income.

Modern designs are great. Loads of people go all over the world in them, no problem. They are well understood and excellent in many respects, 21st century is in some ways a golden age of yacht design, and there are lots available. I like all boats. Depends what you want, and if you want to sail reasonably fast and reasonably comfortably, modern will be fine. But maybe the older style pleases you in some way? That’s ok too. Mine is 75 years old and built of teak, quite insane. Tranona would kill me…..

DM if you want a chat or a sail ( Hamble)

Don’t worry about insurance if you’re going off long distance. Get 3rd party and wreck recovery. The day you buy the boat, write it down to zero on your personal balance sheet. That may be optimistic of course ……..

Oh, and consider buying a boat that’s not in the U.K. A good friend recently bought a beautiful US built boat in Malaysia. I’m going to see him soon I hope. Sounds like great cruising. And the food!
 
Yes. Beware of the windy people using your questions to remount their own hobby horse. It seems to happen on all sorts of forum.

1770486731762.png

Post 81 is worth looking at again. It's a great time to get in and out of boat ownership for very little capital spending though you will still have the usual upkeep overheads.

.
 
If I was starting again with no experience, I would buy an old 28ft boat with great sailing ability. Sail the hell out of it, learning as I go. Read everything you can on sailing, but just get in with it.
You can sail 28ft anywhere if you have the determination. Once you have spent a couple of seasons learning the ropes, decide what attributes of a boat suit your requirements and buy your forever boat.
I have a friend that sailed his 28ft boat around the world. Another friend sailed a 24ft boat across the Atlantic and back.
One friend is currently in the Atlantic, sailing his Contessa 32 to the Caribbean single handed. Another friend arrived in the Caribbean last month in his Warrior 35. You don't need a big boat.
A smaller boat to cut your teeth on that you can fend off by hand when you mess up the fuel pontoon approach is way better than a 10 tonne boat getting out of control.
 
Rob44 said:
But if it helps, I already know I like sailing having already done a little over the years, and getting myself sailing now IS priority A :)
Click to expand...
In your first post you said

"In fact…I’ve very little sailing experience whatsoever, other than dinghy’s from over the years,"

That seemed pretty definitive.

Beating down the channel into a wet wind against tide force 6 is very, very different to dinghy sailing. Unless you have done something completely different to "i've very little sailing experience whatsoever" you don't KNOW that you like sailing. You could get seasick, you could be terrified, sailing on your own could be boring.. anything. You could love it.

I certainly wouldnt be thinking of blue water cruising boats before i even had my own boat.
 
Here’s a personal view but biggest advantages I found on moving from a 10.8 Bav to a 12.8 moody
1 self tacking headsail with a second large out Genoa ie 2 headsails so you can be lazy and self tacking or when winds drop put on the power with Genoa etc;also has a chute on bow spirit;
2 electric winches to haul the main and trim it on German mainsheet system -you really can helm single handed;
3 two wheels -you can navigate while another helms;
4 blue tooth from the plotter -put the boat on autohelm and watch from under sprayhood ;
5bowthruster- good at 12.8m but not essential in your 10. 8m Bav;
6 bigger cockpit tent area and being able to add in side panels as required to cockpit tent (Tewsew at a price) so can sail with some protection(plus hard windscreen)
7 space to blow up dingy on coachroof and use those power winches to haul deflated dinghy from locker and haul over edge;
8ginand tonic seats on stern means in calm weather you can sit there while autohelm does its job;
9additional weight -you don’t slam in any waves at least in uk-cross channel
10 bigger boat mooring in marina-you pay for it but you can often gain a better berth in marina eg Jersey to take a resident berth or at st cast you are given a much better location;
11 more space for a crew of four -stuck on a mooring at Alderney in bad weather feels cramped at 10.8 but fine at12.8
12 much larger lockers in stern each sideto carry the kit plus you have decent seats behind wheels with something behind you -even a 470 Hanse does have this though so do consider when looking what’s behind you when at wheel -we looked at a number which felt quite exposed;
Low freeboard ideally-it really makes it easier to berth if you mid gate is closer to pontoon -some more modern designs have high freeboard(this gives headroom I suspect)
Good size bow locker to store fenders
Foldin J Prop
Greater crusing speed at quieter noise
Holds its helm up to greater wind strength -you have to reef early in Bavs whatever anyone says
Greater sail away factor
Not the same price as as Hallberg 40 etc (which was about another150k) and had less cabins/space
Parts are pretty much common to an equivalent Hanse eg lights,fidge etc


Downsides
More to berth insure etc
More than your Hanse equivalent to buy but rarity has a price
 
geem said:
.?

On the flip side, self aligning bearings are great for the builder. They are cheap but wear is rapid if you are putting the miles in.
We met two Jeaneau 54 owners in Boniare a few years ago. They had both sailed across the pond as part of the ARC. Both boats were 2 years old.
One owner ask me if the boatyard in Curacao is a good yard. Both Jeanneaus needed warranty work. I asked what work and he said rudder bearing replacement. 2 years old and they were worn out. He said that downwind sailing was hard work on the bearings. I couldn't believe he thought that was reasonable.
By comparison, we removed our skeg hung rudder that has 3 bronze bearings. The top two have greasers. We removed the rudder last year for inspection. It didnt appear to have ever been removed before. There was no need since the bearing were perfect. We refitted it with the original bearings. This boat has done 48,000nm in the last 10 years alone. 45 year old boat.
A good engingering friend of mine described self aligning bearings as an abomination. He owns a Sunbeam 44 yacht. He converted his plastic bearings to bronze with a greaser. Both of us do plenty of sailing miles so reliability is a nice attribute to have in a long distance cruising boat.
We see lots of spade rudders removed in the boatyard in the Caribbean, removed for new plastic bearing.
Plastic rudder bearings aren't a show stopper but they are one of the built to a price items common on production boats.
Skegs cost a builder more to engineer so in a cost conscious production boat, a two bearing spade rudder will always prevail.

We have had fish nets ropes catch our skeg twice in the Caribean when sailing between islands. The load on the skeg and rudder combination can be tremendous when an 18 tonne sailboat is brought to a standstill under full sail. There is no slot where such a rope can ride up and catch between rudder and hull. An easy thing to imagine with a spade rudder.
Click to expand...

I remember that in a thread from 7 years ago .... but now I'm confused, was it one Jeanneau 54, or two? In the last thread it was one ... or have you since met another Jeanneau 54 owner with bearing problems? The 2018 ARC had 2 Jeanneau SO 54DS Entries - but they went out of production in 2008, but only one Jeanneau Yacht 54 which would have been in warranty - I guess that was the one? Is it one of these? Jeanneau Yacht 54

Here's a refresher of the last time this anecdote got posted ... with only one Jeanneau 54.

geem

Thread 'New yachts rudder bearing failures'

We met a lovely couple who came over to the Caribbean on the 2018 ARC they have a Jeanneau 54 that is still in warranty. Apparently they have warranty work needed. The rudder bearings need replacing! They said all the Atlantic down wind sailing was hard on the bearings! I may be wrong but I would have thought that was the least load on rudder bearings. He also said that lots of boats had rudder bearing issues following the ARC. Since most boats on the ARC in 2018 were less than three years old, what is going on with these modern boats and rudder design? I cant imagine buying a new boat and...

You did say you had no idea what kind of bearings are installed in modern production boats, but as ever conclude that everything built after some indeterminate halcyon era of boat building has the same problem.

So it's yet another anecdote bashing newer boats and going on to sing the praises of a selected feature of Trigger's broom .

If you want to help, then post something about your experience of refurbishing your boat - so we get an idea of the complete picture of buying old. The owners of newer boats can't do that because we don't have any direct experience of major refurbishments, or of the problems lurking in 40 year old boats - apart from watching YouTube rebuilds.

You have that experience, so tell us about it. The leaking teak deck removal and replacement with non-skid, the replacement of the corroded windscreen with a sprayhood, the corroded mast support and subsequent problems with the internal joinery, and the multi-national attempts to fix it, the rotting plywood on the foredeck, snapped boom etc. etc. .... these would be useful for someone contemplating buying an older boat for long distance cruising.

You've done posts on your Lithium batteries, why not do something on the structural and age related work on your boat?

... it looks like yet another disingenuous new bad, old good, post, summed up as "A Jeanneau Yacht 54 had a rudder bearing replaced under warranty after an Atlantic crossing."
 
potentillaCO32 said:
In your first post you said

"In fact…I’ve very little sailing experience whatsoever, other than dinghy’s from over the years,"

That seemed pretty definitive.

Beating down the channel into a wet wind against tide force 6 is very, very different to dinghy sailing. Unless you have done something completely different to "i've very little sailing experience whatsoever" you don't KNOW that you like sailing. You could get seasick, you could be terrified, sailing on your own could be boring.. anything. You could love it.

I certainly wouldnt be thinking of blue water cruising boats before i even had my own boat.
Click to expand...
So negative PontentillaCO32! :)
I might indeed hate it. I’ve done very, very little sailing, however, even I can fathom dingy sailing on sunny and calm tropical waters doesn’t equate to all kinds of sailing. If I have the freedom to sail wherever and live aboard however I please, I’m going to love it. I do know this.
I already know I love the motion of the sea, just as I already know sometimes that said motion can be a complete pain in the arse.

Did I have to experience all the conditions I might fly in to know I love flying? Absolutely not. And you don’t really think I consider all sailing to be calm tropical seas and sunny days, right? You are at least able to figure out why I’m attracted to the robustness of a bluewater cruiser?

I could go into a super lengthy post about me and various jobs and activities I do or have done, but instead I’ll just say yes, I could get seasick, but so what? Yes, I could be terrified in certain circumstances, and again, so what? I’ve done (and still do) many professional and recreational activities (my entire adult life) that could terrify many, but again, so what?

I fully expect sailing on my own to often be boring in places. But boring doesn’t equate to non-fulfilling. As I’ve said earlier, I don’t intend spending the rest of my life alone. And I do intend having family and friends come visit, wherever I might be. And I still want to be able to sail the boat independently.

And…despite not yet having a boat, I’m still going to think of bluewater cruisers. In fact, I’m going to be thinking about them a lot.

Edit: just so there’s no confusion. I won’t commit to buying a boat until I’ve done some sailing. And as much as possible, on as wide a variety as possible. I need to be able to sail the thing for starters. I also intend to do the shorter courses where appropriate, prior to committing to the expensive long one, if that is indeed what I decide to do. I’m not completely mad, and apologise if that’s how I might’ve come across.
 
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