How would spend £200K and £1400 per month to buy a bluewater yacht to liveaboard and sail / maybe circumnavigate for years to come?

[st599]

The only 2 strokes you can buy in the EU and UK are ones with ECUs to meet emissions regulations. They're not available in small sizes.

 

[Rob44]

Are you now thinking about becoming a full-time professional delivery skipper? it sounds idyllic - until you consider:

• you'll need somewhere to stay in between jobs (you'll be pulling off miracles to get seemless back to back work).
• if you do have your own boat its costing you money when you aren't using it
• you have to work to (within reason) to the client's schedule; if this week is safe but next week is glorious sailing you are still going this week.
• you'll be living out a holdall - not creating any "comforts" you might on your own boat
• if you are commercially endorsed you are one failed medical from unemployment - and the medicals can trip you up on stuff which would not even make leisure sailing a second thought.

I think its a good job for either someone young, with the qualifications looking for some adventure and travel OR someone with decades of experience.

Haha, no, I’m just thinking the ability to do such work could prove very useful. I’ve already assumed much of what you’re saying though, and regarding hold-alls and medicals, I’m already quite familiar with those aspects

 

[Tranona]

After 23 years with the boat, I don't recognise your description. Having had two aft and two centre cockpit boats, still prefer the latter and see plenty of them around Algarve and western Med. Like you, we could have bought new at the time but preferred older. Cramped, yes possibly if we had more than the 12 on board in the photo. Sugar scoop and boarding ladder make swimming and docking stern to, simple.

When I was young we used to get lots of people in a Mini! Not sure why you have difficulty in accepting that people are different as are the places they sail. We (5 of us) tried both and everybody preferred the Bavaria. After 20 years of ownership of 2 of them would not change my views. Having said that suspect if would had followed our original plan and bought the Moody in the UK and used it there before going to the Med I would like you be defending it. It was actually taking 3 charter holidays in different boats that changed us. Plus I was disappointed with the condition of the half dozen or so Moodys that we looked at in view of the prices asked.

Just as an aside probably the worst bit about the Moody was stern to mooring. not only was it poor in reverse compared with the Bavaria, but higher windage meant more affected by the frequent strong crosswinds in the Ionian and clambering over the aft cabin/deck and down to the relatively small platform to both deal with stern lines or go ashore was not popular with my crew, even the young agile ones. On the other hand the Bavaria is straight walk through from the cockpit and the helm has only to turn around to hand lines or even step ashore. That made it relatively easy for just my wife and I to moor - she on anchor duty up front and me steering and stepping ashore at the rear. Or even single handed controlling the anchor with the remote from the helm. Try that in a centre cockpit boat!

Really no surprise that just about nobody makes centre cockpit boats under 12m any more. They were products of their times and predominately N European orientated. Nice and cosy down below in in a Scandinavian or West coast of Scotland anchorage but not at their best in most hot climates.

 

[Rob44]

Buying your first boat is a journey of discovery .... my top tips to add to the advice already given are as follows.

Get on as many boats as you can just to see the variety and get a feel for all the different possibilities - second hand boat shows, new boat shows. No need to sail them at this point, just have a look. Could you live on the boat? Be honest and think about your intended cruising ground and most importantly, the lifestyle you currently lead. Do you expect everything to be shiny and new looking, or are you OK with a bit of dirt, a dated look, and minor damage or heavy wear? Get on all the boat sales web sites and see what is available. Mark favourites and see how your preferences change with time.

Educate yourself on boats ... and I don't mean the plethora of YouTube channels proclaiming to tell you which boats to buy or avoid ... go to surveyors channels, the ones that don't have a lifestyle to sell or an axe to grind. They post the issues they find. Riggers channels, repair channels, even boat scrapping channels. They will give you a good idea of what goes wrong with boats. Restoration channels are also good, they show what is lurking under the surface of relatively sound looking boats. "Sail Life" and Mads restoration of Athena is a must see. He is totally over the top in his meticulous approach, but his channel shows how he does top-shelf repairs and upgrades to his various boats. He is honest and straightforward.
This playlist from Sail Life is well worth watching - it's the restoration of his second boat, a Warrior 38 called Athena. Project Athena (DIY sailboat restoration)

Every boat owner on this forum has a boat they bought for their own reasons ... their decisions are down to budget, experience, DIY capability, actual usage, lifestyle expectations/aspirations and the compromises they are prepared to make ... but most of all, there is an awful lot of validation-seeking behviour. Don't know why it is so tribal, but it is - you will never get boat owners to agree on anything unless they sail the same boat. So ignore it all - this is your boat, and your decision. You just need to be honest with yourself and get it right for you - every boat is a compromise and that compromise is unique to each of us.

Make a wishlist for the things you want in a boat - it gives you something to focus on and you can change it as you see more and more boats ... mine looked like this and it will in no way match yours ... but it gives an idea of what to think about.

Overall requirements ….

Mediteranean live aboard.
Extended cruising, don't sail to a fixed schedule, will avoid bad weather.
Mainly anchoring, avoid marinas, swimming & showering often.
No interest in northern/southern cold weather or heavy weather sailing.
Might do an ARC later.

Dealbreakers … MUST HAVE!

12-13,99m LOA
White textured gelcoat decks.
Dry, clean bilges, no water under the floor, no leaks into bilges.
At least 3 private sleeping cabins (bunks OK) - sleep 6 in comfort without saloon.
Clean contemporary interior - must be bright and airy with plenty of windows and light - no dark wood.
Freezer or space for a freezer.
Chart Table/Desk - big enough for laptop/tablet.
No more than 2 heads.
Seperate shower cubicle that can be closed off - preferably no sink or toilet in shower area.
Roller furling main - furling from cockpit.
Twin helm with easy walkthrough into seating area.
Big aft cockpit - must seat at least 8 in comfort underway and 10+ for entertaining.
Big bimini/sprayhood - plenty of shade
Big, sturdy cockpit table
Swim platform or sugar scoop stern with swim ladder and shower.
Space for a Watermaker.
Engine with enough reserve power/space for additional high-output alternator or room for a generator.
Mainsheet/Boom clear of cockpit occupants.
Front Opening Fridge

Dealbreakers …. MUST NOT HAVE!!!

Teak Deck
Sun damaged caulking on cockpit teak causing black stains.
DIY disasters - random equipment/decorations fixed all over the inside of the boat.
Screw holes, discoloured veneer, damaged interior wood from removed equipment/decorations, hard use.
Damp/Mould/Leaks or bad smells.
Large repairs from accident damage (Grounding/Heavy collision)
Water damaged or rotten balsa core, exterior screws into balsa core, exposed balsa core, non-original deck fittings.
Keel problems (leaking or suspect keel bolts - ineffective keel sealant).
Moisture in the hull/deck or water ingress in the rudder
Water stained interior wood or signs of water ingress.
Leaking windows, vents, fittings.
Failing rudder bearings.
Engine oil/fluid leaks
Electrical bodges, DIY amateur wiring
Solar Panels glued or screwed to deck - holes in deck.

Wanted features ….

Teak in cockpit (if in good condition)
4th cabin with bunks.
L-shaped galley
White fiberglass hull, not painted or wrapped.
Built in last 10 years.
Master cabin with good view outside.
Salon convertible to sea berths with lee cloths.
Main, genoa and code zero sheets/winches accessible from helm.
Engine control on binnacle, not floor.
Water Tankage over 400l.
Fuel tank around 200l.

Wanted Mods/Extras …. The more the better

Electric or Hydraulic bathing platform.
Big robust arch on stern with dinghy davits, solar, outboard crane.
Babystay fixing point on foredeck.
Cool box in cockpit or ability to fit one
Furling Code Zero or equivalent.
Folding Prop.
Air Conditioning/Heating
Double anchor roller
Windlass drum usable with anchor locker closed.
Midship cleats and gates in guard rails.
Electric winches
Self tacking jib
Generator or space to fit one.
Washing machine or space to fit one e.g. Daewoo wall mounted.
Upgraded engine option

Not important if reflected in lower price ….

Condition of cooker
Condition of toilets
Condition of sails
Condition of sprayhood/bimini
Condition of mattresses/upholstery
Condition of anchor/chain
Condition of safety equipment
Condition of standing rigging
Condition of running rigging
Condition of seacocks and through hulls.
Condition of antifouling
Condition/Age of electrical equipment/instruments

Thank you so much Baggywrinkle, I hugely appreciate your extensive reply - so much to now watch and consider

 

[siwhi]

We sailed as a family of 4 from Glasgow to Sydney between 2016 and 2020 and sold just as the Covid lockdown hit Australia on a Moody 44 shoal draft. For us it was the perfect boat, so many small things that added up to make it so. Details such as a hatch in the transom right behind the master bunk, so you could see out to the quayside or anyone boarding from your bed, or the layout, the spec of the deck gear, etc, etc, made it ideal.

While I agree with many here that many other boats would also be well suited to your need, and condition is king, and that perhaps a smaller boat would be better for a single hander, I did many offshore passages single handed without issue. In fact the boat looked after me perfectly. Obviously older boats need more maintenance as a general rule, but I have a strong bias towards British, Scandinavian or Dutch built boats of a certain age (or build spec). Not everyone here will agree, but wandering around boatyards all over the world and talking to owners, only reaffirms my bias in this respect.

Getting the skills and experience you need can be sped up by doing a delivery or two. The skippers are usually very experienced and happy to have a motivated and engaged crew.

In my view there are only a few places in the world with really excellent cruising. Everyone has their own preference, but time and again the South Pacific will be rated the highest by anyone who has sailed there. I would buy a boat in Tahiti and spend a few years in the South Pacific if I could (Raiatea-yacht.com - Broker | Bateau d'occasion à Tahiti, Nouvelle-Calédonie et Pacifique). The Caribbean and Eastern Med are also fine, but for me they pale in comparison (but maybe that's because I've worked in both as a skipper). Then come the other beautiful but often cold areas, where cruising can be limited to summer. So consider buying a boat 'in location' and learning there.

And I would definitely keep a property in the UK or some money back for one. You'll pass many wrecks and think that could easily have been us. £1400 a month for a solo sailor should be OK, but that's without much luxury. I'd say £500 for the boat per month is about right on average if you leave with everything working (to replace broken bits, but you can get used items cheap in many places). You can easily get crew for passages if needed, there are plenty of hitchhikers hanging around passage marinas, and it can be fun for a while, but having a boat you can single hand is a must as if you're like me, you'll need your own time and space.

Just go. You can sell and re buy if you get the choice wrong.

 

[Rob44]

We sailed as a family of 4 from Glasgow to Sydney between 2016 and 2020 and sold just as the Covid lockdown hit Australia on a Moody 44 shoal draft. For us it was the perfect boat, so many small things that added up to make it so. Details such as a hatch in the transom right behind the master bunk, so you could see out to the quayside or anyone boarding from your bed, or the layout, the spec of the deck gear, etc, etc, made it ideal.

While I agree with many here that many other boats would also be well suited to your need, and condition is king, and that perhaps a smaller boat would be better for a single hander, I did many offshore passages single handed without issue. In fact the boat looked after me perfectly. Obviously older boats need more maintenance as a general rule, but I have a strong bias towards British, Scandinavian or Dutch built boats of a certain age (or build spec). Not everyone here will agree, but wandering around boatyards all over the world and talking to owners, only reaffirms my bias in this respect.

Getting the skills and experience you need can be sped up by doing a delivery or two. The skippers are usually very experienced and happy to have a motivated and engaged crew.

In my view there are only a few places in the world with really excellent cruising. Everyone has their own preference, but time and again the South Pacific will be rated the highest by anyone who has sailed there. I would buy a boat in Tahiti and spend a few years in the South Pacific if I could (Raiatea-yacht.com - Broker | Bateau d'occasion à Tahiti, Nouvelle-Calédonie et Pacifique). The Caribbean and Eastern Med are also fine, but for me they pale in comparison (but maybe that's because I've worked in both as a skipper). Then come the other beautiful but often cold areas, where cruising can be limited to summer. So consider buying a boat 'in location' and learning there.

And I would definitely keep a property in the UK or some money back for one. You'll pass many wrecks and think that could easily have been us. £1400 a month for a solo sailor should be OK, but that's without much luxury. I'd say £500 for the boat per month is about right on average if you leave with everything working (to replace broken bits, but you can get used items cheap in many places). You can easily get crew for passages if needed, there are plenty of hitchhikers hanging around passage marinas, and it can be fun for a while, but having a boat you can single hand is a must as if you're like me, you'll need your own time and space.

Just go. You can sell and re buy if you get the choice wrong.

Thanks Siwhi, such a long voyage from Glasgow to Sydney sounds like a fascinating seafaring adventure. Did you ever blog or publish anything about it anywhere? I can't help but think it would great to read about it all, and I of course appreciate reading your thoughts and advice; thank you so much.

I have only vaguely considered the idea of buying in French Polynesia. I was only watching a couple of lads YouTube their experience of buying an older catamaran out there just the other evening, but for me there's this huge appeal around actually sailing there, and all the places to visit and explore and experience en-route. Perhaps similar to why you might've sailed from Glasgow to Sydney?

 

[Graham376]

When I was young we used to get lots of people in a Mini! Not sure why you have difficulty in accepting that people are different as are the places they sail.

You always fall for the bait

I have no problems with whatever boat people buy, I bet there a few folks out there who don't like mine or your choice, that's life. When we made our last choice it was 23 years ago and no doubt production boats have changed since then.

Funny that our boat has everything listed as desirable on the OP's #60 post, except for the Hydrovane.

Cheers, G.

 

[siwhi]

Thanks Siwhi, such a long voyage from Glasgow to Sydney sounds like a fascinating seafaring adventure. Did you ever blog or publish anything about it anywhere? I can't help but think it would great to read about it all, and I of course appreciate reading your thoughts and advice; thank you so much.

I have only vaguely considered the idea of buying in French Polynesia. I was only watching a couple of lads YouTube their experience of buying an older catamaran out there just the other evening, but for me there's this huge appeal around actually sailing there, and all the places to visit and explore and experience en-route. Perhaps similar to why you might've sailed from Glasgow to Sydney?

Yes, I understand, it's the journey there that makes the adventure. But there's a tension between time allocation in where you find yourself today and where you know will be amazing. Atlantic Europe is under appreciated in my view, the Caribbean is easy to spend time in, but with diminishing returns, and there are loads of places I wish we'd gone but didn't stop at like Costa Rica. But the South Pacific needs years to explore.

Yes, we had a blog which the kids did, but I stopped paying for the website last year and it's closed as we didn't need it really. We have the pictures, charts, friends and memories. A pity of course, not to be able to share it, but there you go.

The shoal draft was an advantage a couple of times, as we could anchor right up the beach, or back up to some quays to the amazement of some, and it sailed fine (it points maybe 5 degrees lower to windward), but it wouldn't be a big factor in my decision making really, other things carry more weight.

I enjoy answering any questions, like we all do here, so don't hold back if you have any.