How far in a small boat

[ghostlymoron]

We started with a Leisure 17 which someone gave us and had more fun in her than any subsequent bigger boat. She sailed well and could do upto about 5.5kn. Sailed from shell island on Welsh coast to Holyhead in North and Newquay in South.
Cramped but great fun. We didn't go out if > f3 but stayed out in f5 a couple of times without much concern.

 

[PetiteFleur]

I started with a Vivacity 20, sailed all over the Thames Estuary, up to St Kats in London and across to Calais via Ramsgate. All with an(unreliable) Seagull so did a lot of sailing...

 

[weustace]

Our first (and current) boat, an Achilles 24, is large compared to the Leisure 17s etc discussed here, but a lot smaller than the yachts you'd be likely to do training courses aboard. First passage after taking delivery in late season 2015 was Chichester Marina - Portsmouth (so yes, about 16nm), and my father and I got soaking wet and a little rattled bashing out of the harbour with the ebb tide against a F5! On another trip, I remember finally being persuaded of the value of proper oilskins by the pelting rain as we motored (with the noisy 2T outboard at full chat) through the windless waters of Chichester Harbour...
This season saw trips to the Channel Islands, Cherbourg, and the West Country, clocking up just under a thousand sea miles. It is indeed true that passages in other boats can be faster—I sometimes skipper a club Beneteau F40.7, which will scoot along at 6-7 knots, and so would probably do the 120nm passage from Dartmouth to Chichester Harbour in 17 hours to our 24—but while I was happy to do that in the A24 with just two of us aboard, the F40.7 in similar conditions (F6 gusting 7) would wear out a larger crew. Also, in the larger boat, I wouldn't have had the experience of tacking up the Tamar against the faintest of breezes, waiting for the echo-sounder to reach 20cm clearance before tacking; coming alongside Cotehele Quay tea rooms for a quick 'Cornish Split' before dashing back and shoving the boat off before she got stuck on the falling tide; reaching up the Dart through a fleet of racing dinghies etc. Of course, you possibly could do these in a 40'er, but it would be bordering on irresponsible, whereas in a 24'er it's par for the course. There are trade-offs in everything!

A day's run is not that much, I agree—a longish day sail has been Weymouth to Yarmouth in F2-4—but in many ways the cruising is every bit as satisfying. In a 40'er, 60nm cross Channel is just another day sail; in a 24'er, it's potentially a much bigger job, and I think it's possible to learn a lot in relatively few sea miles as a result! If somebody offered me an all-expenses paid upgrade to an equally pretty 35'er that sailed as well, I'd probably take it, but for now at least I'll stick to the world of the small boat!

Regards
William

 

[Daydream believer]

the reason I asked the question was prompted because our club committee boat is a 25/26 ft sailing boat. (A bilge keel Hurley/Leisure or something like that). I have been asked to take the heads out, remove the holding tank. Paint the bulkhead & GRP Then make a new base & re fit the heads.
Just getting into the boat past the saloon table & into the forward cabin where the heads is located is a nightmare. Trying to sand down the old paint even with the heads removed is extremely difficult in such a confined boat.
Yet this thing is designed with a so called double berth up forward, 2 berths in the saloon & a quarter berth.
How 5 people could spend an afternoon on it let alone a night leaves much to the imagination
I have a Hanse 31 ft boat (6 berth)& sail single handed. For that it is great but I would like 35/38 ft, but age now makes it too late to change. 2 people are comfortable. 3 are OK if one does not mind swapping places every time someone wants to move about the cabin. 4 drive me mad because 31 ft just is not big enough in the cabin for more than a weekend. It is just an endless game of moving gear about to get from the bow to the stern & even simple operations like cooking drive one to the restaurant. Moving bags about at night, making beds etc is just hassle.

After a while everyone does get fed up with getting a bum shoved in one's face every 5 minutes as the crew squeeze past the dinning table & saloon seat to the bow cabin & back.

The cockpit is really only OK for 2 unless someone sits to leaward which will, in most cases make them sick if it is rough. So who draws the short straw & sits below?

In my 20's I had a Stella ( 26ft) but 3 blokes on a piss up to Ostend & back is slightly different & bucket & chuck it is not so bad. Or was not back in the 70's. But I would have no desire to squat over a bucket at 25 degrees to the horizontal now.

When I was 12 my father built a Silhouette & I sailed it about with a friend. As a small lad it was a bit Swallows & Amazons but really a dog to sail much farther than Brightlingsea or Maldon which were major trips. Hence, I spent most of my teenage years sailing my Hornet.

So to be honest I fully understand how a 35 ft boat is seen as a starter boat.
At least one can cover 60 miles as a reasonable day sail in 10 hours & feel comfortable at the end & feel that they can go places. Plus the proverbial "Bum in the face" ( even if it is the mistress) does not have to happen quite so often

 

[doug748]

"I have a Hanse 31 ft boat (6 berth)& sail single handed. For that it is great but I would like 35/38 ft, but age now makes it too late to change. 2 people are comfortable. 3 are OK if one does not mind swapping places every time someone wants to move about the cabin. 4 drive me mad because 31 ft just is not big enough in the cabin for more than a weekend. It is just an endless game of moving gear about to get from the bow to the stern & even simple operations like cooking drive one to the restaurant. Moving bags about at night, making beds etc is just hassle."


Yup, buy a bigger boat. Aft cabins don't work that well in the smaller sizes, you end up with a poky saloon in a slim part of the boat. As you say, a snug cockpit is the other common drawback. No free lunches with boat design.

Nice for one or two though.

 

[Daydream believer]

deleted

 

[weustace]

I suppose the real question is whether it gets used or not—and can the club afford something bigger. If it never gets taken out because of the issues you mention then I must agree it's probably time to say goodbye, but on the other hand it's surprising what people (myself included) will put up with.

On our club 30'er we routinely run courses of six people including the instructor for periods ranging from five days to a weekend, so it's definitely a matter of what you're used to.

 

[DownWest]

Expectations vary. When I was young, we would spend a week on board racing. First in a 20ft, then a 27. Four of us and worked OK. We obviously were used to each other, as a family and it worked OK. But often some crew were non family.
Since then, cruised with four on a classic 36ft, so not the wide bodied modern space. Two 1/4 berths, two mid and two in the fore peak. Obviously sails and the bog were forward, so it worked.
Chartered a 46 in Greece for 6. Three cabins with ensuite, so left the saloon free. Absolute luxury, but would have been happy to share space. The aft cabins were cramped, but it was only a week.
Now it is mostly daysailing, but next year will be doing some coastal cruising in a small boat. Friend has signed up for the trip north to Brittany, boat is 17ft, so camping space only. Plenty of bum in face opportunity.
Been helping out with a friend's Trapper 501. I would be happy to sail that for extended cruising with two or three others. It has berths for six, but like others of the era, four is about right. Others might disagree )

Also, there is the old adage: Small boats get used more often.

 

[JumbleDuck]

After a while everyone does get fed up with getting a bum shoved in one's face every 5 minutes as the crew squeeze past the dinning table & saloon seat to the bow cabin & back.

I guess it depends on whether you want a sailing boat or a caravan.

 

[William_H]

Here in West Oz a company built a series of fin keel boats called "Spacesailers". They proved very popular and there are hundreds around. They came in 18ft, 20 ft, 22 ft, 24ft and 27ft. Essentially the same style of boat. ie spacious cabin mast head rig. Now our club is in to racing and we have seen all these sizes race. Speed as you can imagine depends on size.
However it is dramatic how slow the 18 is and the 20 is not much better (both sweet boats) but the 22 can be made to go really well. Often beating the 24 or 27 especially in flat water or not so strong winds. It all makes me think that if OP is asking the question about how far can I sail a small boat I would say look for 22ft or so for any decent speed and ability to punch into waves. Good luck in the search olewill

 

[Seajet]

I have only just bothered reading this thread, as the very title seems to infer small boats incapable of decent passage making.

Now I see people with larger boats are basing their judgement on the Silhouettes etc of their youth...

All boats vary a great deal, and any boat of any size is a compromise - for any price for any £millions.

My Anderson 22 is a 1973 design, but Oliver Lee got it right - in my and a lot of other peoples' opinions including magazine reviewers.

The interior is comfortable and surprisingly roomy - the four berths are all adult sized, which the ones on my Carter 30 were not.

The lift keel is not really used much for the ' ditch crawling ' many people assume - one is sailing pretty close to the seabed if the difference between 4'6" and 2' is the margin, though it can be useful - it's very useful for using sheltered, inshore half tide moorings which are also affordable.

With the Carters' 5' fin requiring deep water moorings I had a miserable time a long way out and exposed, requiring a serious tender or a yard workboat - so a serious limitation.

My boat has clocked up 24 Channel crossings, all 60 miles+, usually but not always set off at dawn from say Lymington / Studland and arrive at St Peter Port before dark .

There would be a lot more crossings under her belt if I'd had crew available to take the same 2-3 weeks over the last few years.

Same goes for crossing Lyme Bay, I usually go to and from Studland, outside Portland Race, to Brixham or Dartmouth.

I count on a basic passage speed of 5 knots being cautious, then amend it usually upwards to suit conditions; she once averaged 7 knots from St Peter Port to Salcombe n aout F4-5, no surfing down waves.

The ballast ratio is 42%+ and she has good form stability too.

For this size boat the 5hp outboard in the well ( shipped for any decent sail and a fairing plug fitted ) is optimum, I have motored across the Channel in calms, and an engine change is a case of taking one engine off and placing the new one on, sheer inexpensive joy compared to any inboard.

She keeps punching into waves and will handle far heavier weather than me, she once beat a Rival 34 ( sailed by a dinghy National Champion ) into a stiff F6+ from Buckers Hard to Chichester, three of these boats have raced across the Atlantic.

There are faster 22' boats, but I'm not aware of any as seaworthy; there are roomier ones but they don't sail acceptably.

I have cruised for 3 weeks around the Channel Isles, Brittany and West Country with three adults aboard and we were all still friends afterwards.

For interest, I admire the Achilles 24 a lot as a sailing boat - I'd count her about equal on speed, maybe a touch less overall than the Anderson but a fin keel one will be closer to windward - however I was amazed how tiny the interior is.

This is in contrast to the first boat I ever sailed, a very pretty plywood triple keel Mystic 21, lucky to average 3 knots.

I have had my A22 for 40 years now along with other boats and have never found any boat of any size with such a pleasant ' feel ' to the tiller, which I'd say is a lot of what sailing is all about.

People should not just think of 1st generation plywood bilge or twin keelers of yesteryear when saying ' small boat '.

 

[Iliade]

The great thing about smaller boats is that they can be cruised at 50kt (behind the car) whereas my 26'er cannot even go on the back of a small HGV.

 

[Seajet]

People often ask if they can trailer sail the Anderson 22; my answer is no, it's too big and heavy and the rig is too complex; trailing to relocate once for a different holiday cruise is OK with planning, I'm against trailing home for the winter as if kept on a trailer one cannot access and maintain the keel plate.

I think one has to keep well below 20' to easil trailer sail, and with the hassle of finding slipways etc the idea is a bit flawed anyway.

 

[Boathook]

Peoples idea of what is a family boat has changed over the years. In the 60's a 26 foot one would have a family of 6 on board. In the 50's my Dad was JOG racing in 6m boats to St Malo. The picture shows a couple (outer 2)that he raced on. Not sure which one he was on or even where the photo was taken.

 

[Mark-1]

Speaking as owner of a bilge keel Corribee with outboard I think the answer is 'not far' if we're talking about weekend sailing. The problem always seems to be reliably getting back.

Yeah, small boats sail brilliantly when wind and tide is on your side but the advantage of a bigger boat with an inboard engine is that you can take advantage of the good conditions and take yourself miles away from home, confident that you can fight wind and tide you get yourself back in time for a restful Sunday evening and return to work.

Ditto X-Channel. In a 32 footer with inboard you can cheerfully sail over Friday night even if the wind's going to drop off. Not so much fun with an outboard. (Although I'm sure people do it.)

AC Stock is a terrific example of what can be achieved, but he did it by completely adjusting his sleep to the tides. Very commendable, but I never feel like doing that!

If you've got more than a weekend and can chose to go where wind and tide dictate then things change completely and I suspect there's very little drawback to a small boat, and significant advantages. 4 days seems to be the magic point where you can really stretch your legs.

All of that assumes the distance is about 'going somewhere'. For someone happy to beam reach out to sea and back on a day with a good breeze then I'd think you could clock very good mileages in a small boat. If the tides are useless for anything else I sail round the Nab tower as a day sail that's an easy 35 miles and you could easily double that as a day sail if you were sure the wind wasn't going to die off and you wanted to put a solid day in.

Having said all that, if you have a Leisure 17 you probably have enough cash left over to charter if you fancy a weekend trip to France regardless of weather. (I'd go further and suggest chartering without going to the bother of buying the Leisure 17!)

EDIT: I should also say I am somewhat handicapped by being based in Chi Marina. If I try to leave the Harbour to go west with decent ebb on my side by the time I've sailed to the entrance there's not much tide left to take me west! That problem is solved by anchoring or picking up a bouy near the entrance the night before but I don't often have the night before IYSWIM. Of course coming back is a joy with hours on end of Eastgoing tide to help me on my way. Even in light winds I've done Keyhaven to Dell Quay with a snooze during the worst of the foul tide.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Peoples idea of what is a family boat has changed over the years. In the 60's a 26 foot one would have a family of 6 on board. In the 50's my Dad was JOG racing in 6m boats to St Malo. The picture shows a couple (outer 2)that he raced on. Not sure which one he was on or even where the photo was taken.

View attachment 74719

I’m in agreement with Boathook, the idea of boat size has changed over the years, back in the late 60’s early 70’s when I moved from mirror dinghy to cruising, a 26’ boat was was a dream, from the cockpit of our Leisure 17, we never even thought of anything bigger. We often sailed from Christchurch to Cherbourg in the Leisure, we then bought a Foxterrier 22 and the increase in space was amazing, and we went further afield to Brittany and the Channel Islands. (I wanted to go for the Anderson 22 and still would if I was looking for a 22’, but was out-voted by the syndicate so we bought the Foxterrier).
When I left the syndicate and ‘went on my own’ I bought an Invicta 26 and happily sailed 3 up to Northern Spain as well as numerous trips across to Ireland and the Isle of Man.
My ‘latest’ boat is a Sadler 25 in which I’m hoping to do more trips to Ireland and visit the Scilly Isles.
I have crewed on larger boats over the years, Fulmars, Sadler 32 and larger, but keep coming back to my 25/26. footers which I find still comfortable and just as important easily sailed single or short-handed, so I don’t have crewing problems, which seems to be increasingly difficult as the size goes up.

 

[Major_Clanger]

What a fun thread!

I grew-up sailing on my parent's Rival, but had a long hiatus and didn't buy my own boat until 1988. She was a Vivacity 20 and I and a friend had grandiose plans to take her down through the French canals, out at Marseilles and spend a year or so in the Med. I even bought all the courtesy flags! Looking back it seems a laughable idea, and so it turned out to be....

By the end of that summer we'd sailed from Maldon to Brightlingsea or Rowhedge ad infinitum and felt brave enough to sail off the edge of the world - which in practise meant down the Wallet to the River Orwell and the flesh pots of Pin Mill. I have such fond memories of 'Take Two' that it's hard to be objective, but I don't think she was particularly sea-kindly and certainly not fast. Come September and I'd blown most of my money and hadn't even left the east coast! My great adventure was unravelling so I galvanised myself, wrote a passage plan and set-off from Bradwell to Nieuwpoort in, arguably, marginal conditions for a small boat. Wind was a steady SW4 but it was the sea which brought the problems. All was okay going across the Thames Estuary, but by the time we were off the Falls we had a confused, steep and typically nasty North Sea which the poor Vivacity did not like at all. My pal and I didn't like it either; we were both frightened, seasick and in all probability, a bit out of our depth. I didn't think the boat would have gone to windward in the slop, so there was no sensible option but to continue. This we did but it really wasn't fun, although by the time we were off Nieuwpoort the sea was flat calm. Once tied up my pal announced he was no longer interested in the great adventure, left the boat and moved in with his girlfriend instead. We never went sailing together again!

 

[Seajet]

Speaking as owner of a bilge keel Corribee with outboard I think the answer is 'not far' if we're talking about weekend sailing. The problem always seems to be reliably getting back.

Yeah, small boats sail brilliantly when wind and tide is on your side but the advantage of a bigger boat with an inboard engine is that you can take advantage of the good conditions and take yourself miles away from home, confident that you can fight wind and tide you get yourself back in time for a restful Sunday evening and return to work.

Ditto X-Channel. In a 32 footer with inboard you can cheerfully sail over Friday night even if the wind's going to drop off. Not so much fun with an outboard. (Although I'm sure people do it.)

AC Stock is a terrific example of what can be achieved, but he did it by completely adjusting his sleep to the tides. Very commendable, but I never feel like doing that!

If you've got more than a weekend and can chose to go where wind and tide dictate then things change completely and I suspect there's very little drawback to a small boat, and significant advantages. 4 days seems to be the magic point where you can really stretch your legs.

All of that assumes the distance is about 'going somewhere'. For someone happy to beam reach out to sea and back on a day with a good breeze then I'd think you could clock very good mileages in a small boat. If the tides are useless for anything else I sail round the Nab tower as a day sail that's an easy 35 miles and you could easily double that as a day sail if you were sure the wind wasn't going to die off and you wanted to put a solid day in.

Having said all that, if you have a Leisure 17 you probably have enough cash left over to charter if you fancy a weekend trip to France regardless of weather. (I'd go further and suggest chartering without going to the bother of buying the Leisure 17!)

EDIT: I should also say I am somewhat handicapped by being based in Chi Marina. If I try to leave the Harbour to go west with decent ebb on my side by the time I've sailed to the entrance there's not much tide left to take me west! That problem is solved by anchoring or picking up a bouy near the entrance the night before but I don't often have the night before IYSWIM. Of course coming back is a joy with hours on end of Eastgoing tide to help me on my way. Even in light winds I've done Keyhaven to Dell Quay with a snooze during the worst of the foul tide.

Mark-1,

the Corribee is a lovely, seaworthy pretty boat,( and the only decent thing Newbridge Boats ever marketed in later form ) but surely even her most ardent fan would admit she's very slow and even more cramped - I'd be quite chuffed to get from Chi marina to Cowes in one tide in one.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Major_Clanger, I don’t know if you have ever read it, but if not try getting hold of a copy of ‘The Art of Coarse Cuising’ by michael Green, he and his crew seem to sail all over the place in his Vivacity ‘My Poll’ including the North Sea to the Netherlands.

 

[Mark-1]

the Corribee is a lovely, seaworthy pretty boat,( and the only decent thing Newbridge Boats ever marketed in later form ) but surely even her most ardent fan would admit she's very slow and even more cramped - I'd be quite chuffed to get from Chi marina to Cowes in one tide in one.

It had full standing headroom for my daughter when she was 4. People love them though. Wherever I go I hear people pointing her out, and more than once had strangers passing on the water tell me that Ellen MacArthur went round the UK in one. (My stock reply is that EM is 5ft2 tall, I was 5ft2 tall in my first couple of years at primary school.)

Chi->Cowes is doable in a tide if you allow punching the last of the flood at the Chi end. (...and it hurts to be going past Itchenor at any time other than peak favourable flow!) But I can only do that if I'm confident I've got the right tide and wind to get me back the next day. I've done Chi->Beaulieu on a weekend Saturday in it, and Chi->Osbourne Bay on a weekend Saturday. My staple is Bembridge though, if I have time to leave the Harbour which I often don't. ...and because I don't get much time a small Bilge keeler is ideal for getting off the beaten track totally alone watching the seals play for short overnight trips so the compromise works for me at the moment. Ideally we'd all have infinite time, a shoal draft boat & a J120 to cover most bases.