How did you learn to be such a safe and capable sailor?

[ylop]

As for youtube learning things I've come to dislike it, bravado man would probably never get on the water. A friend of mine up north wanted me to recommend some sailing instruction videos so I had a look. They all take too long to get to the point and you could spend so many hours doing it your life would slip away. You watch one then the second video by someone else repeats half of what was in the first but advises something different so thats a confusing waste of time and so on. A book is much better, well structured, consistent approach, without repetition and straight to the point. And you can keeping reading them while on your boat not stuck at home in front of a screen.

finding the good/useful content is certainly a battle. But there is nothing to stop you watching it on your phone whilst actually doing the task. I don't think I could learn to sail from scratch like that - but I did watch a couple before I first tackled a dutch box mooring. One of the problems with videos or books is they often have a somewhat perfect set of scenarios - there always seems to be a convenient cleat, they never have a nervous crew member who takes 60s longer than you expected to step off the perfectly positioned boat etc.

It would be so useful to do for many reasons. If useless political candidates can get volunteers "phone banking" maybe the RYA can organise it. So far though it seems focusing on getting more kids dinghy sailing would be a safe bet anyway.

I agree - and I think they would learn a lot. They probably think they have info from evaluation forms at the end of the course but I don't think that's the same.

In the numerous breaks in my far-too-long (RYA) VHF course on Sunday I was watching kids out in dinghies - all singlehanding. 7 out of 10 lacked basic understanding of how the flappy bits worked yet they were being herded round a course they obviously didn't understand, without being allowed to set off across the safe waters around them when they finally managed to get the boat moving. The three who could do it were bored, the others were in various stages of befuddledment or downright upset in the case of the lone oppi pilot, who didn't have a clue what he was doing. This on a beautiful day in sheltered waters with a gentle steady breeze - not the cold, choppy, gusty weather that would make it a truly miserable experience.

I'm not a fan of the RYA dinghy sailing experience for youngsters. Too much aligned/targeted towards feeding the olympic funnel and not enough interest in the kids. Sailing is actually a bloody complicated thing. We make it more complicated by giving things funny names. Most of the physics of sailing (even the basics like how a sail works or why a boat without a keel/centre board moves sideways) is really stuff you don't begin to learn until you are what 14+? That means 8 yr olds are learning to sail by repetition not understanding.

It seemed to me the budding sailors would be having a lot more fun if they'd first learned on a two man boat, starting on the jib until they understood how a sail works and how a boat moves, then moving on to supervised helming, then out in one boat with a friend - having a decent understanding but given space to make their own mistakes and have a laugh.

I don't think single handers are fundamentally bad, making my own mistakes and learned more that way than when I was just pulling a jib or centre board when told to (realistically most helms are not instructors and many don't really know why they are following these drills either!). I actually think I learned more about how wind/sails work from windsurfing.

Natural competitiveness would appear of it's own accord and the racers could take their sailing in that direction, leaving the rest just enjoying mucking about in boats with their like-minded chums - the creek explorers if you will.

I do think the creek explorers are missed on the RYA youth programme. Those are the people who are most likely to become cruisers. I still remember the first time I anchored a dinghy and went ashore for a picnic with other friends in their boats. If it wasn't for those experiences I might never have bothered owning a boat. I'm sure we raced to see who would be first back but we weren't getting upset over start line routines and shouting water at the windward mark, and nobody even knew what a protest flag was.

maybe I misunderstand the point of club dinghy sailing, maybe I just don't get it, but it seems that these children are being taught that it's racing or nothing.

I think there are two big contributors. The first, and most important is that like all sports RYA gets funding from government and almost all of that funding is linked to medal success (and very much olympic medal success). So RYA's entire youth program becomes a question of how can we funnel as many people into the programme as possible with the aim of finding talent and then how can we nurture that talent to the olympic stage. Cycling, athletics etc all suffer the same sort of headaches - if you can't generate more success your funding will be cut so then the paid support staff, support boats, etc get culled. The second aspect is that there are lot of parents re-living their own dreams vicariously through their kids. Again, you'll find the same in other sports and things like dancing etc. It feels to me like in some of youth sailing moderate success can be bought by buying fancy kit, travelling to every event (in your motor home of course) etc and so there's a way for affluent parents to "invest" in their kids and feel their success by proxy.

There may be a third aspect, but I think its a perception rather than a real barrier, that taking a dozen kids creek crawling is a health and safety / safeguarding nightmare and its far better to be close to the safety and security of the club.

Info from a local rep the stats for a local marina where you need to transit a lock, so no sneaking out unnoticed…83% never left the marina in a calendar year.

I wonder if those with swipe card access see the same about the number of people using the marina. I'm aware of some who essentially treat as a floating caravan.

 

[Adios]

Which thread was that as I cannot locate it and would be intersted to read it?

Should Marinas require some sort of user ability | YBW Forum

 

[KevinV]

I don't think single handers are fundamentally bad, making my own mistakes and learned more that way than when I was just pulling a jib or centre board when told to (realistically most helms are not instructors and many don't really know why they are following these drills either!). I actually think I learned more about how wind/sails work from windsurfing.

I agree with everything you say, I just don't think single handing from day one is the way to make it fun - based on my observations on Sunday and my own experiences as a youngster.

So RYA dinghy can be like an orphans sailing club.

Interesting point - like kids being packed off to ski school instead of spending quality, fun time with their parents.

 

[Obi]

Well done us. But how have we managed it?

I have been aware of the RYA since I was a young teen and I think it is a wonderful organisation. Upbringing was "fairly nautical" with bits of sailing/windsurfing/motor boating. Thankfully all the serious stuff was done with very sensible folk. However, as a 15 yr old it seemed like a lot of magic took place at the nav station. My father took me through basic charts/nav but there is so much more to know.

Eventually I had some surplus ££ and wanted to buy a yacht and take a long break from work to sail. I did the RYA 'zero to hero' and eventually commercially endorsed that qualification. Having started with only a few hundred sea miles at that time I knew I needed experience, and I knew I needed tutelage. The zero to hero seemed a great way to kick start this.

RYA really did a great job to "de-mystify" things for me; all those "magic" things I had seen happen at the nav station as a youngster but knew nothing of. Thankfully then I was committed to a full time yachting life and I made some good contacts and did some longer passages with one of the RYA YMI who had taught me, at this time we did much more adventurous passages, the opportunity to sail with better sailors is my point here

Also membership with an owners society and helping out members get their boats back from far flung places helped again.

I consider it a serious matter, with great responsibility and my ambitions to take a long break sailing solo, I did not want to kill myself at sea.

RYA - thank you!

 

[ylop]

I agree with everything you say, I just don't think single handing from day one is the way to make it fun - based on my observations on Sunday and my own experiences as a youngster.

Agreed - although I don't think most places chuck young kids in singlehanders on day 1. Those clueless ones may already have had a day or two on something like a topaz or bigger like a bahia doing what as (assistant) instructor told them. A combination of not very great instructors and not very attentive pupils then ends up with the situation you describe of some people who are clued up and bored playing follow my leader and others who are struggling to just steer in the right direction. Its actually a problem with "courses" that the syllabus expects you to move on to the next element but really it would be better to stick those kids back in a boat with a different coach to cover the basics again. There is a desire to get them into singlehanders as quickly as possible though - and I assume that's based on feedback from even 40 years ago that kids enjoy that?

Interesting point - like kids being packed off to ski school instead of spending quality, fun time with their parents.

there may be similarities - often the worst possible people to teach you a skill are your parents. Often children would rather be with other children having fun than getting dragged to do the things their parents want. Often parents have forgotten how much fun you can have just mucking around rather than trying to get as many miles or pints in as possible.

 

[Adios]

often the worst possible people to teach you a skill are your parents. Often children would rather be with other children having fun than getting dragged to do the things their parents want. Often parents have forgotten how much fun you can have just mucking around rather than trying to get as many miles or pints in as possible.

Its the worst ones that stand out. The dad in a lock on the Medway shouting at his kids who were cowering in a way that made it seem clear it was his normal tone with them and I imagined they hated boating. The other day on the beach I saw a girl stoop down with a look of delighted excitement to investigate a washed up cuttlefish until her obese mum who was waddling behind her, too far back to even see what the girl was looking at shouted "DON'T TOUCH THAT". The poor girl shot up with a fallen face and carried on. Parents can beat out any enthusiasm for life kids would naturally have. But the good ones are kid focused and dedicate their life to them having fun and good new experiences. I can honestly say that's the focus of our life since having them to the point we home educate rather than let them be bored senseless by schools. We're always trying to up the game so they keep doing new things and have increasing challenge. They've been on various boats I've had in recent years but were too small to handle sheets on even a small yacht so I've started them in dinghies, with me initially in a GP14 I bought for the task, on a lake. Now I've just joined a coastal club and waiting for space on a local RYA dinghy course to open up. I'm hoping they'll enjoy the competitive element. In the mean time I have the GP14 with cruising sails and a SIB to back them up. I was thinking of selling the GP14 and getting something more racing focus until this thread as it doesn't suit the club very well and I can't figure out where to put it locally but no I think it will come in handy. I'll just have to have 2 dinghies. When they are ready (and the prices have come down again) we'll get something with more range.

 

[Daydream believer]

When my father bought me a 12 ft clinker dinghy at the age of 11 my mate & I rigged it on the beach & waited ages for my dad to turn up. When he did he said " how did it go" I replied " we were waiting for you to show us what to do" Well I do not know" You had better get it in the water & find out" So in it went & my sailing adventure started. Went from that( with a brief break in my father's silhouette which he never sailed) to a Hornet, to a new Stella when I was 21. Then I had to find out how to navigate the Thames estuary & to Ostend in the races.
No one has ever shown me what to do I just read books. That is until I did the YM theory, just before covid broke out. I found the RYA way a bit difficult & often came up with the near correct answers in navigation by doing the things in my head from rule of thumb.
The instructor queried why I was bothering with the course & I said that it was because so many of my friends had it that I felt inferior. He felt that I did not need the qualification at all.
When my kids were ready to sail I bought them a cadet & did what every dad should do- Pushed them off & left them to it. Just be around to pay the bills when needed. They still talk about the fun they had in their cadet 40 years on. They have never stopped sailing.

 

[Stemar]

How did you learn to be such a safe and capable sailor?

Safety is probably covered by my natural cowardice. As for being such a capable sailor, by doing a course, then being an incapable one who has the ability learn from his mistakes - sometimes, and occasionally, those of others.

 

[Adios]

How did you learn to be such a safe and capable sailor?

Safety is probably covered by my natural cowardice. As for being such a capable sailor, by doing a course, then being an incapable one who has the ability learn from his mistakes - sometimes, and occasionally, those of others.

I noticed the numbers and it looks like you did RYA then over 26fter? Its a smaller minority than I expected but I really want to know about this group the most. Why did you get that size boat? Surplus of cash? Image of yourself sailing swanky boat? Entertaining space? What you were used to after course? And how many pairs of underpants did you take with you the first time out without instructor and crew? It makes me think you don't suffer much from natural cowardice really

 

[Stemar]

I noticed the numbers and it looks like you did RYA then over 26fter? Its a smaller minority than I expected but I really want to know about this group the most. Why did you get that size boat? Surplus of cash? Image of yourself sailing swanky boat? Entertaining space? What you were used to after course? And how many pairs of underpants did you take with you the first time out without instructor and crew? It makes me think you don't suffer much from natural cowardice really

Course then under 26'.

I did a dazed kipper course, sailed a bit on other people's boats, then bought a Snapdragon 24 - anything but swanky, but she did us proud for 18 years.

My first time without instructor and pretty much without crew was on a mate's 26 footer. I'd come down for a day's sailing with my kids, teenagers, but zero experience. Mate said, "I've got a bunch of things to do - you take the boat out" Foolish fellow - not just his boat, but his home, but I did manage not to break it. We had a great time, sailing round, then went over to the Island side of the Solent to head for home. All was well until we met the mass of the Round the Island race coming the other way on starboard... Could have done with those underpants then!

As for cowardice, riding two wheelers with and without engines soon teaches you that getting it wrong hurts. I don't like it when it hurts, be that physically or financially! To quote the old saying, there are old bikers and there are old bikers, but there are no old, bold bikers (or pilots or sailors or whatever) I decided long ago I'd rather be the oldest one than the boldest.

 

[Adios]

Course then under 26'.

Will any of the 6 brave souls who went straight to over 26ft share their experiences I wonder

 

[Obi]

(Continued from above)..

Progressing to solo on my first yacht 39'11" I first went out into The Solent with two fellow sailors who were to only get involved with sailing if I used the "safe word", otherwise they had to remain strictly as passengers.
The next time I went out alone and they followed me in their Westerly. It was pretty straight forward to be honest.

For a long time, berthing single handed in strange ports every day was one of the things that would pray on my mind. But one good thing the RYA courses did for me was to give me a lot of sessions of boat handling in confined spaces, under sail or engine and what to expect from tide, wind, prop, helm and talked me through handling the yacht. Those basic principles have served me very well across the dozens of yachts I have skippered. Not once have I dinged in tight spaces with cross winds or tides. Mooring stern-to in the Ionian in August/Sept can be a bit breezy to say the least.

Working as a skipper in the Ionian one summer I saw some absolute horrors. I think the worst was one skipper with a 50 ft sloop and about a dozen guests. The wind was blowing up above a 7, and as he came into Meganisi at full chat, with a young teen being towed behind in the tender, he seemed unaware that switching to going rapidly astern was going to cause the poor teen a lot of horror. When nearly stern-to the wife of the guests jumped on to the concrete key and started to use her flip-flopped foot and leg to try and stop the swell pushing the 50 ft hull up and onto the concrete quay. The whole thing went on about 30-60 mins with almost everyone who had already moored up trying to help out, mostly by trying to secure his lines or keep his hull off the quay- may times the GRP came crashing down on a rusty old quayside cleat. Several attempts, none of them safe and eventually they gave up and went elsewhere, but not until he had nearly parked the entire vessel sideways on the quay a few times. Thankfully one of my guests spoke Italian and warned the lady that she was about to loose her leg if she carried on trying to use her foot to leverage the hull back against the swell.

For me the value of zero to hero was this: six months of concentrated exposure to instructors with experience and knowledge, books, constant testing, learning, reading, practicing and more importantly in six months I only had 4 weekends away from the sea. The rest of the time we were mostly sailing. This constant continual exposure to theory, practical and information is a good way to really embed things into one's head. The time it takes to clock up similar hours and experience doing weekend sailing means that learning is spread, usually over years. For me, the concentrated approach helped.

However, I was well aware that the course was only a primer, did not mean I was safe or knowledgeable, and that the rest was up to me. I have certainly met many folk who have come through the RYA courses and are in need of a lot more learning and practice.

One YM candidate who failed the exam got caught out by HMS______, over the VHF the clipped RP accent came through "Sailing yacht in position x,y, we advise you to move a mile to the south, we are commencing live firing tests and you are sailing in our firing range".

 

[jamie N]

Cadet, Hornet, J24 stuff and a lifetime of 'seafaring' on dive ships, got me to the position of now owning my Folkboat. Having solo sailed Shetland, Orkney, Outer Hebs, Pentland Firth and Cape Wrath stuff numerous times, I suffer from 'impostor syndrome', which helps keep me safe as I DO try to think everything through, and to stay ahead of the boat.

 

[pyrojames]

I ticked the first box, but in fact, it was a parallel process - I learned to sail dinghies that were used alongside my Dad's yacht (a converted lifeboat). I learned the elements of navigation from my Dad, who had done a course, but it was supplemented by O-level and A-level maths and geography (the latter for map-reading skills).

I could have written that! Except I was in Oz, with School and High School Certicates. Dads course was RAF navigator, so he did have formal training!

 

[DownWest]

Slight oddity here.
Since my father designed boats, first as a hobby, then business, I was in dinghys from about 4 yrs old. Allowed out in the 12ft from six (weather permitting). Then us younguns were given a Cadet. Sailed that after primery school in the evenings on the Lea, occasionaly raced. Then, wanting my own boat, was told to build it. So I did, aged 11. Had enormous fun with the little pram for a few years, while also crewing on the bigger boats in Falmouth and Burnham for racing and the occasionam X channel. This was in the 50s & 60s
Taught myself navigation from a book at school. Logical use of maths.
Later, sailed a lot on other peoples boats, often as nav. Algarve to Gib several times. But always kept a small boat for fun. Also looked after a big ketch for a company I worked for.
Now, stick to small boats, trailerable, in the 17 to 21 ft range, Three in the stable.
I get roped in to fix other peoples boats quite a bit. Recent engine swop on a Jeanneau and similar on a Trapper, plus other interest with friends building woodies.
Since one started with no radio and other electronics, so no way to call for the 'rescue service', never occurs to use them now. Had a few bits of 'fun', but self sorted.
But, I do carry a VHF and GPS now.

So training on the job. No certs.

 

[Bristolfashion]

I wonder whether today's self taught sailor might have more difficulty obtaining the full set of skills - just grab navionics and go. Back in the day, someone would have shown 'em EPs, tidal calcs, dead reckoning and all the rest.

 

[SaltyC]

I wonder whether today's self taught sailor might have more difficulty obtaining the full set of skills - just grab navionics and go. Back in the day, someone would have shown 'em EPs, tidal calcs, dead reckoning and all the rest.

You didn't have a lot of option then. No chartplotters, GPS and in most cases VHF - you were on your own.
We did have RDF from lighthouses ( later
- I'm not THAT old), the null point being give or take 20 deg. But way better than previous.
Is this a reason we still like chart tables and a 2B pencil with a cross on a piece of paper??

 

[Adios]

I wonder whether today's self taught sailor might have more difficulty obtaining the full set of skills - just grab navionics and go. Back in the day, someone would have shown 'em EPs, tidal calcs, dead reckoning and all the rest.

I am wondering if old dogs are finding it hard to learn new tricks. Or more precisely if old dog finds it problematically disconcerting to be with an RYA instructor making him feel like none of his existing tricks add up to competence despite his years of successful sailing. Calls for another thread!

 

[Wansworth]

Took a friend sailing to Spain using usual pencil and paper chart Later he went with some American friends in their state ofthe art navigatorium……..reported back that my trip had been more satisfying and exciting.

 

[Roberto]

Started sailing in the Med, racing with biggish boats (from then half ton to 2nd class IOR) we won a lot of races, Middle sea Race included. Then became periodically involved professionally in different aspects of sailing.
What made me a safer sailor? May I say a forum like this (or possibly aging :d ) ? Until YBW end '90S I never bothered about lifejackets, tethers, harnesses and the like, let alone used them. Beating at night in 40+ knots meltemi we went changing genoas from 2 to 3-4 without any safety concerns; I remember one night a friend climbed on the boom and fell in the cloth pocket formed by the second reef, and was trying to exit towards the stern we saw the head peeking out over the sea to leeward: the other way! the other way! (he later became world champion in a number of classes, J, Melges and the likes)... Lucky, very very lucky we were, can't count the occasions where someone overboard would have meant death.
The British approach to sailing (be it safety, or your unique, almost formalized "seamanship rules" aspect) has made a big contribution to my way of more safely looking at things.
Thanks all