How did you learn to be such a safe and capable sailor?

[xyachtdave]

I couldn't see a box in the poll marked...

'I was a natural, born with so many magical gifts'

So I ticked self taught.

 

[The Q]

I've ticked RYA course and boat under 26ft... But in truth the dinghy course wasn't completed due to bad weather, and the rest is self taught

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Overlooking the OPs assumption that I am safe and capable, (all I can say is ‘I try’,) I cannot remember not sailing. By the time I got to university, I was able to steer any dinghy I was told to, and mostly as quick as the next guy. My 1st date with the future OH was on my 505, about 10 years later. She was talked into beach cats by the late Reg White, and apart from a dalliance with XOD racing, we’ve not looked back. Bigger boats came after kids arrived, multihulls naturally. Done various cruiser courses, both of us, but not the practical sailing parts, they’re only partially relevant at best. Shorebased nav before GPS though, VHF, powerboat courses to level 4, and some race management. None of thst is what makes someone safe and capable, IMHO. Some class inspired knowledge is useful, but miles on the water is what you need.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I ticked the first box, but in fact, it was a parallel process - I learned to sail dinghies that were used alongside my Dad's yacht (a converted lifeboat). I learned the elements of navigation from my Dad, who had done a course, but it was supplemented by O-level and A-level maths and geography (the latter for map-reading skills).

 

[ylop]

Fascinating point in another thread "The UK which is the only major country in the world that has no qualification requirements for leisure boating has the best safety record."

Well done us. But how have we managed it?

Ignoring the fact that we aren't the only one, but assuming the premise that those with no requirements are generally better than those with, I think you only need to look to the roads to see that having a "minimum qualification for access" also quickly becomes the "only qualification for access" and so an entry test can be a self-defeating exercise, because once people get the "ticket" they are free to do what they want.

As the author of the quotation my view is that in the UK we are surrounded by water of all sorts and there are so many opportunities to get involved through youth organisations, schools clubs armed forces and so on that the pool of people who take up sailing or motorboating in later life is huge.

I'm not sure your statement makes sense. There are so many opportunities as a child that loads will take it up as an old git? I think firstly there's a flaw in the first hypothesis, there maybe used to be lots of opportunities for youngsters in some parts of the country but I'd guess a substantial majority of people have never sailed (or been seriously offered to sail) by the time they leave school. Moreover those who I know who did some boating as a youngster then come back to it 30+ years later are not exactly the best advert for no formal qualification needed... a misplaced confidence is found in many of them.

I wonder whether the fact that we have a free breakdown/rescue service has anything to do with it???

It might be a factor. All rescue services say to call for help early rather than let a small drama become a crisis. The fact there's free, and largely judgement-free help must encourage this. That said, I don't think the sort of things British boats call for help with are significantly different to other countries.

Thats what i'd assumed but now seeing very few came the RYA only path and stayed (if 70 votes on here is somewhat representative)

I don't think YBW is in anyway representative of the boating public.

I wonder if the feeling of a 36ft boat being a normal size put them off in the long term. Either they didn't feel confident and didn't buy or they did and it put them off.

lots of people get into boating in totally different sized boats: dinghies, powerboats, dayboats etc.

I've tried to convince a few people that they should look for a more modest first boat but its always that they'll need something big enough to entertain another couple. No amount of reasoning will dissuade them, its the entire image of boating they have in their mind which attracted them.

its an entirely reasonable image for people who follow the day skipper route - who want to have a floating holiday hopping around the coast. If you are really into the actual sailing, you might be more inclined towards racing.

So then its bloke does course with lots of experienced help and crew, after completion he's essentially single handing the same size boat now with wife and 2 other passengers as added liability. .

I wonder if your gender assumptions are even right for people doing courses? Certainly hasn't been my experience on RYA courses I've done in last 20 years. Whether that's because male bravado means they assume watching youtube means they don't need it or the gender balance on skippers is now where you think it is I'm not sure. When I'm afloat I do see the stereotypical man at the help, women in the galley, but I also see plenty of couples working effectively as a team. I can't recall when I last saw a woman under 45 on a sailing yacht who was purely a passenger or just pulling bits of string as she was yelled at.

I also think you are unrealistic if you think that the average person new to sailing goes from zero to skipper quickly. I suspect that from total newbie to passing Day skipper practical is 4 weeks of solid learning: 5 days to learn the basics (comp crew level), 5 days to learn the theory (DS theory), 5 days more experience ideally sailing variety of boats and conditions, then 5 days DS practical. Unless you are comfortably well off or have exceptional availability and few other commitments that's likely to be spread over quite some time - at least a whole season, probably two.
In contrast Powerboat level 2 is a 1 weekend course - the entry barrier is much lower. If you are looking at accident stats it would probably pay to segregate different craft.

I wonder if the RYA do any follow up on people a year or 2 after they completed courses, they really should to get feedback from those who dropped out after having so much enthusiasm to start.

they've certainly never been in touch with me. Sea schools I've used have put me on mailing list but also never done any research on what my ultimate destination has been (a missed opportunity by them to then follow up with a personalised response - new owners: diesel course; not been back out: confidence builder etc).

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Sometimes it's better to just hold the dream of sailing and cruising rather than turn it into a reality . A friend of mine spent 19 years building his dream boat. When it was finally launched , his wife decided she didn't like boats or sailing. I'm sure this is why many boats don't move. At least the old man still has his boat and the wives are happy to enjoy it as a weekend retreat.

 

[SaltyC]

As you say the images that sell yachting are not like this but even if those images aren't what attracted them who is going to go through all the RYA training on lovely new 36fters and then aspire to this sensible starting boat? It would spoil anyone. Maybe RYA need a fleet of aging small Westerlys for the modest crowd to learn on.

View attachment 138988

AAAHHH! My nightmare! Started Chartering a Hurley 20 then a Westerly 22 from Falmouth aged 11 with my batchelor uncle,loved sailing but the Westerly????? First time 'concerned' beating around St Antony's and each tack the B..... lighthouse was in the same place she went at the same speed sideways as forwards.
Still the boats chartered, then owned, got bigger and better and I was hooked, a sojourn into dinghies in my 20's (I was paying) - got wet but learnt more about sail setting and balance when punished, eventually returned to cruisers - they had GPS and Chart Plotters????? what a revelation. So from 'starter' boats of 20 to 24' sheer luxury of 30' ( Nicholson 32) I have now graduated to 36' - a Starter boat! Hmmm back where I was 50 years ago.

 

[NormanS]

Interesting that so far, the majority have said that they started in dinghies, and have progressed without any formal courses. That may be a reflection of the average age of most of us old gits on here, but I wonder if it's still true in the general sailing public?

 

[Adios]

Sometimes it's better to just hold the dream of sailing and cruising rather than turn it into a reality . A friend of mine spent 19 years building his dream boat. When it was finally launched , his wife decided she didn't like boats or sailing. I'm sure this is why many boats don't move. At least the old man still has his boat and the wives are happy to enjoy it as a weekend retreat.

To afford a bigger boat I managed to persuade 2 friends to come in with me. Despite my best efforts to get them involved one of them only came out on his boat once but then spent considerably more time telling people down the pub that he owned a yacht. That was really enough for him. I'd love some stats on how many boats never leave the marina. It might compete with gym memberships.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Interesting that so far, the majority have said that they started in dinghies, and have progressed without any formal courses. That may be a reflection of the average age of most of us old gits on here, but I wonder if it's still true in the general sailing public?

My son would say the same. He’ll be 30 in a few weeks. He grew up with cruising, but sailed dinghies himself.

 

[mattonthesea]

Similar to others I don't think some people would call me safe. My risk assessment for life jackets is around visibility and conditions. So not often worn. I've single handed the Atlantic, sometimes on the foredeck without clipping on. I'm sailing through shallow water, keel plus half a metre, in Denmark this summer. I sail on and off buoys and anchorages whenever appropriate.

Not saying any of this is special, lots of people do it. Just that safe is a relative term, based on risk appetite.

N12 as a teenager. Other dinghies at university etc. Break for 24 years. Invited on a charter and revitalised. DS and organised lots of charters for an outdoor club. YMO. Bought Rival 32. Retired. Sail for 3 months each summer.

Use my mistakes as learning experiences (mostly). Each day I provide myself with more opportunities to learn ? Example: recently, entering a box mooring in Denmark, I learnt that a stern line only works if it is attached to the boat!

 

[Adios]

Interesting that so far, the majority have said that they started in dinghies, and have progressed without any formal courses. That may be a reflection of the average age of most of us old gits on here, but I wonder if it's still true in the general sailing public?

I was assuming any kids in dinghies would have had instruction in dinghies whether RYA or other but then curious if people still went and followed the RYA yachting syllabus which it seems quite a few did or if dinghy knowledge was enough of a start.

But the bulk so far starting with dinghy sailing most likely with instruction then by the sound of replies once in the boating world took opportunities to get involved with other peoples bigger boats or with their own gradually bigger boats. I doubt that would be different for people today.

 

[Adios]

I wonder if your gender assumptions are even right for people doing courses? Certainly hasn't been my experience on RYA courses I've done in last 20 years. Whether that's because male bravado means they assume watching youtube means they don't need it or the gender balance on skippers is now where you think it is I'm not sure. When I'm afloat I do see the stereotypical man at the help, women in the galley, but I also see plenty of couples working effectively as a team. I can't recall when I last saw a woman under 45 on a sailing yacht who was purely a passenger or just pulling bits of string as she was yelled at.

Don't read anything into it, it was just to make the point that perhaps you'd have one trained and all the others total passengers which the trained person might be assuming he can make as useful as the crew he relied on during the course. Marina chaos often seems to be the result of trying to utilise passengers as crew when it would have been better to behave as if single handed.

If I had to guess I would say that RYA courses are most often taken by couples together as they'll be buying the boat together. Maybe quite often by couples who see it as a fairly cheap and fun adventure holiday, something different to do, not necessarily as a means to a definite boat owning end. Or to enable them to charter abroad.

As for youtube learning things I've come to dislike it, bravado man would probably never get on the water. A friend of mine up north wanted me to recommend some sailing instruction videos so I had a look. They all take too long to get to the point and you could spend so many hours doing it your life would slip away. You watch one then the second video by someone else repeats half of what was in the first but advises something different so thats a confusing waste of time and so on. A book is much better, well structured, consistent approach, without repetition and straight to the point. And you can keeping reading them while on your boat not stuck at home in front of a screen.

they've certainly never been in touch with me. Sea schools I've used have put me on mailing list but also never done any research on what my ultimate destination has been (a missed opportunity by them to then follow up with a personalised response - new owners: diesel course; not been back out: confidence builder etc).

It would be so useful to do for many reasons. If useless political candidates can get volunteers "phone banking" maybe the RYA can organise it. So far though it seems focusing on getting more kids dinghy sailing would be a safe bet anyway.

 

[KevinV]

In the numerous breaks in my far-too-long (RYA) VHF course on Sunday I was watching kids out in dinghies - all singlehanding. 7 out of 10 lacked basic understanding of how the flappy bits worked yet they were being herded round a course they obviously didn't understand, without being allowed to set off across the safe waters around them when they finally managed to get the boat moving. The three who could do it were bored, the others were in various stages of befuddledment or downright upset in the case of the lone oppi pilot, who didn't have a clue what he was doing. This on a beautiful day in sheltered waters with a gentle steady breeze - not the cold, choppy, gusty weather that would make it a truly miserable experience. It reminded me of the Pony Club haridans sapping all the fun out of riding when I was a boy, forcing me do stuff I wasn't interested in and not letting me do anything fun - it put me off riding for (almost) life.

It seemed to me the budding sailors would be having a lot more fun if they'd first learned on a two man boat, starting on the jib until they understood how a sail works and how a boat moves, then moving on to supervised helming, then out in one boat with a friend - having a decent understanding but given space to make their own mistakes and have a laugh. Natural competitiveness would appear of it's own accord and the racers could take their sailing in that direction, leaving the rest just enjoying mucking about in boats with their like-minded chums - the creek explorers if you will.

Maybe I'm nostalgic, maybe I misunderstand the point of club dinghy sailing, maybe I just don't get it, but it seems that these children are being taught that it's racing or nothing.

FWIW, I learned the little my dad knew, then taught myself in dinghies with my siblings, went windsurfing as a young adult, came back to dinghy sailing, then onto yachts - most of that with a very knowledgable and patient skipper who taught me most of what I now know. I'm interested in getting some formal training, but can't for the life of me figure out what level I'm at (I've navigated across the Atlantic, but until a few weeks ago never parked a boat under power for instance), the RYA site is hopeless at explaining, unless you already speak RYA.

 

[Adios]

It seemed to me the budding sailors would be having a lot more fun if they'd first learned on a two man boat, starting on the jib until they understood how a sail works and how a boat moves, then moving on to supervised helming,

Someone was just telling me the other day how his 9 year old son stopped going as he didn't take to it, too scared, I said give it a year or 2 and try again. Dad sails single handers and it didn't occur to to him that the answer was get the son first on a 2 man boat. The problem is if dad is serious about racing like he is it will cramp his style having a newbie on the jib and then helm. Seasons racing series score out the window for heavens sake! So RYA dinghy can be like an orphans sailing club. I think its assumed that the best way for kids to learn is follow that structured route in single handers rather than go with dad and if the kids take to it then great but worth baring in mind what you describe and if its like that take them out and sacrifice dedicate a season for them.

then out in one boat with a friend - having a decent understanding but given space to make their own mistakes and have a laugh. Natural competitiveness would appear of it's own accord and the racers could take their sailing in that direction, leaving the rest just enjoying mucking about in boats with their like-minded chums - the creek explorers if you will.

Maybe I'm nostalgic, maybe I misunderstand the point of club dinghy sailing, maybe I just don't get it, but it seems that these children are being taught that it's racing or nothing.

I'm totally with you on that. I've been 100% cruiser/explorer/lounger in boats and going nowhere fast much less appealing so not sure why I'd expect it to be every kids favorite form of sailing. Trouble is it seems nobody sails dinghies without a safety boat anymore so everyone herded in a tight triangle fits that. Having kids going in all directions doesn't. Again thats where dad could come in. If they don't take to racing straight away show the kid the joys of exploring by boat then they might see racing as a means to learning which will facilitate more exploring. So dad could stick a masthead float on and go sans safety boat up a river, whats the worst that could go wrong. But dad might need an old style dinghy with reefable sails, most modern dinghies are one trick racing ponies not suited to cruising. In the past boats were designed for cruising but were also raced. GP14 was specifically designed for a family of 4 to go coastal cruising, with a small jib and reefing main. In the 1950s I don't expect they demanded to have a fast rib pottering behind them in case they flipped it.

I'm interested in getting some formal training, but can't for the life of me figure out what level I'm at (I've navigated across the Atlantic, but until a few weeks ago never parked a boat under power for instance), the RYA site is hopeless at explaining, unless you already speak RYA.

There are pre-requisites listed for each level, mileages you've already done, you can pick the course to match the level you can already do... I'm feeling the same actually, I'm thinking to do some courses to fill gaps in my knowledge. Mainly to get best practice drummed in on things I've probably been bodging and how to manage crew which I've rarely had. Happy to follow RYA method though of course there are more than one way to do things, unlike schools today I've confidence that the RYA have a tried and tested education system that works.

 

[DanTribe]

Started crewing in Cadets over 60 years ago.
Still learning.

 

[xyachtdave]

….. I'd love some stats on how many boats never leave the marina. It might compete with gym memberships.

I can help with this!

Info from a local rep the stats for a local marina where you need to transit a lock, so no sneaking out unnoticed…83% never left the marina in a calendar year.

If you actually turn up at your gym or marina…you’re a bit of a PITA.

 

[Adios]

I can help with this!

Info from a local rep the stats for a local marina where you need to transit a lock, so no sneaking out unnoticed…83% never left the marina in a calendar year.

If you actually turn up at your gym or marina…you’re a bit of a PITA.

good grief!! Thats really worse than I thought. There are some psychology PhDs waiting to be done on this

 

[flaming]

I don't really fit any of the boxes...

Dad had a Westerly Griffon before I was born. Kept it until I was about 14 when it got traded up into a Legend 336, and then up again into a Dufour 40 when I was about 20. So I had a pretty good grounding in how to sail.

But... Since Dad was self taught there were a few things that came as a bit of a surprise when I then went and did every course from DS to YM. In the meantime I did do some dinghy sailing courses etc, but I never really got the bug in the same way.

So the answer is mostly taught by Dad, with some of the edges knocked off by RYA training.

 

[ctva]

Fascinating point in another thread "A number of studies have been carried out in the past comparing "safety" in boating in a number of different countries which generally showed no correlation between level of qualifications required and a whole range of safety indicators. Rather the opposite. The UK which is the only major country in the world that has no qualification requirements for leisure boating has the best safety record."
...

Which thread was that as I cannot locate it and would be intersted to read it?

Option one but for me, learned in dinghies and went through to be a CA then started racing in big boats on a friends yacht before getting our own. No specific big boat training but still involved in PB training so learned through the RYA as a trainer / coach for big boats.