Help a complete novice get his bearings

[candyman]

Hi folks!

My wife and I are planning to retire to a motor yacht in about 5 years. We're starting our research now so we'll be fully prepared when the time comes. We want a vessel big enough to comfortably live aboard long term (years, maybe decades) and with enough endurance/capabilities to travel the open ocean so we can see the world, yet small enough that we can handle without crew.

My top questions are:

1. How do we get started learning all there is to know about operating and maintaining a large motor yacht? Are there any good books, blogs, web sites or threads in this or other forums you can recommend?

2. How big is too big for a (particularly capable) couple to handle without a crew? We've been eyeing boats around 100' in length. The Browards I've seen are particularly enticing. I understand a vessel this size will require a lot of maintenance and am prepared to hire that out while in port, but am hoping to get away with just the two of us for day-to-day operations and ocean crossings.

We're both in great shape, work incredibly well together and have no known health issues. I'll be in my mid-forties when we buy the boat; she's 8 years younger, so we don't anticipate any age-related physical issues from stopping us. That said, there's still only so much two people can handle and with no experience in operating vessels of this size... well, we have a lot of learning to do!

Any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated.

 

[ribrage]

100 ft mobo is going to cost you an eye wateringly huge amount of money to keep running just on fuel alone ( gallons per mile) , take a look at the engine replacement costs and the fuel burn figures alone , let alone the annual cost of slipping and anti fouling.

100 ft is not manageable in my eyes without crew regardless of age and fitness of the owners , that's a lot of wind age and weight to do a LOT of damage when it gets a bit wayward, depending where you moor up but a lot of marinas couldn't take 100 ft boat.

Suggest you do do a day skipper course on a 14 ish meter fly bridge to get an idea of what it is you are suggesting before making commitments, plenty of choices of sea schools around the world.

 

[candyman]

I'm budgeting USD $2M for the boat and $250k a year for expenses including fuel & maintenance. I'd think that should be plenty, no?

Suggest you do do a day skipper course on a 14 ish meter fly bridge to get an idea of what it is you are suggesting before making commitments, plenty of choices of sea schools around the world.

Good idea, I will look into this. We won't be making commitments any time soon. We have a dream and the means to make it happen, but that's it at the moment. This is why we're starting several years in advance - we really don't know what we're doing here, but we're eager to learn. We want to be ready to hit the water when our youngest goes off to college.

Thank you for your response!

 

[TQA]

100 ft is WAY WAY too big. Think 40 to 50 ft.

Very few mobos are capable of crossing oceans in safety. They don;'t have the range or the ability to cope with bad weather.

There is an exception. Nordhaven make seaworthy boats with the range needed.

Look at a used 47 or the new 43 http://www.nordhavn.com/models/43/

Do a diesel engine course somewhere. Ideally one that gives hands on [ dirty and smelly ] experience.

As for navigation and boat handling it is not rocket science. Lots of courses around. But when you get the 43 or 47 ft boat find someone who will take you out and show you how to dock the thing. Even with two engines and a bowthruster you can still **** ** royally.

 

[Tony Cross]

Dear Lord, I hope you have very deep pockets - think millions.

 

[Sandyman]

You dont need a boat that big to liveaboard comfortably. Most liveaboard folk manage quite comfortably aboard a 12M boat. We do.
If you intend long high sea's passages then forget motor boat, think sail boat, possibly a motor-sailor if comfort is a big issue for you.
As ever I suggest you start reading up. A multitude of books out there. Here's a good starter ISBN 0-7136-7403-2.

 

[Tranona]

Welcome to the forum.

Assume you are resident in the US given your interest in Broward yachts.

As already suggested you need very deep pockets to operate a boat of that type and size - and you would definitely need a crew. You may actually be forced by legislation to have a qualified skipper or become one yourself to be allowed to operate it.

In reality, although the sales patter suggests that such boats are suitable for world wide cruising, very few people actually do that, partly because of the range limited by fuel capacity, partly because they can be extremely uncomfortable in heavy weather, and partly because they are simply too big for many of the desirable cruising areas.

However if you limit your ambitions to cruising in the more densely populated areas of the world (in boating terms) like the Caribbean or the Mediterranean then it is viable - but even more expensive in terms of berthing and maintaining the boat. Passage distances however are likely to be shorter so fuel range and cost less of an issue.

If you really want to go wandering around the oceans you need to look at trawler type yachts in the 50-70' range which are manageable by an experienced couple and do have the range and seakeeping for such passages. Boats like the Nordhavn and Fleming would be the sort of things to look at. The former have a really active group of owners who do cruise widely and you can read about their exploits in the house magazine.

The real guru on long distance cruising under power is Steve Dashew who publishes widely on the subject as well as designing and building boats. Google him and you will get a wealth of information.

You may want to also look at buying a sailing boat in a similar size range - 50-70'. These are by far the most popular types of boats for the well off people to go ocean cruising. They can be handled by small crews, but have the sort of accommodation that you would find on a motor boat of similar size, although for obvious reasons laid out differently. However, they are far superior for ocean voyaging, not having the range limitations of motor boats and generally more comfortable. There is a huge choice of boats in this sector, built both in Europe and in the US and a thriving market for used boats. People tend to buy them new for a specific project, perhaps on retirement, so many come up for sale 5-10 years old and with a suitable refit capable of going off again.

Do not underestimate the skills and knowledge required for what you desire. Most people who do this are serial boat owners and have worked their way up from smaller boats, although some no doubt jump in with little experience but a lot of money. They either crash and burn, or if sensible engage a professional to help them get to grips with the boat and cruising. You will find people who sell these types of boats have access to such professionals to help their customers.

 

[duncan99210]

Looking at 100 foot motor boats, you will need to look closely at the regulations governing their manning. I suspect that you may need significant qualifications in terms of being the skipper/captain, plus there will almost certainly be a requirement to have a set number of qualified crew on board. Obtaining the necessary qualifications will take study time and sea time, so you'd do well to do the basic research now so that you can find out if it's practicable and make a start.

A boat of the size you're thinking of will usually need more than two people on board, especially when docking. Boats of that size will need someone at the helm plus two crew on deck as a minimum to handle ropes, fenders and the like, as the helm is likely to be some distance from the working deck where the mooring lines are. As an indication, with two of us on board a 38 foot sail boat we could often do with a third pair of hands when docking in anything other than ideal conditions.

All that said, I don't fully subscribe to the point of view that you won't be able to do long crossings nor that you will definitely need more crew. I know a couple who have a 65 foot motor boat, twin diesels, wooden displacement hull, who have been ambling round the Med for many years now. Because their boat cruises at no more than 9 knots and the engines are well matched to the boat, their fuel consumption is such that their bunkers last them about a year between refills. That said, their tanks hold just over two tonnes of fuel. So it is possible but you need to choose your boat carefully so that you can operate by yourselves and you need to gain the experience in boat handling.

From a personal point of view, there's a large bit of me which says just do it. Do the research about regulations, visit a few boats to see how much space there is one board, think about the problems of getting into places with craft at the larger end of the spectrum and perhaps adjust your ambitions regarding boat size a bit downwards and go for it.

 

[Tranona]

All that said, I don't fully subscribe to the point of view that you won't be able to do long crossings nor that you will definitely need more crew. I know a couple who have a 65 foot motor boat, twin diesels, wooden displacement hull, who have been ambling round the Med for many years now. Because their boat cruises at no more than 9 knots and the engines are well matched to the boat, their fuel consumption is such that their bunkers last them about a year between refills. That said, their tanks hold just over two tonnes of fuel. So it is possible but you need to choose your boat carefully so that you can operate by yourselves and you need to gain the experience in boat handling.

That is just the sort of boat that Nordhavn build, although they are a little bit faster being semis, but cruise at displacement speeds. However, very unlike the Broward the OP mentions which is probably better as a harbour boat and very popular with charter operators in Florida (where the company that sells them is located) and the Caribbean. 100' versions typically have over 1500hp, often 2*16 cyl GMs to help them achieve their 18 knots top! Good party boats but not for long distance cruising.

 

[chinita]

Living aboard in a confined space will eventually become claustrophobic so you need to consider getting away to do something else, like fishing. These things do an excellent job and you will be amazed at the number of bites you get:

http://www.walmart.com/browse/sports-outdoors/trolling-motors/4125_546956_111667_1079384_1079404

 

[Carmel2]

Looking at 100 foot motor boats, you will need to look closely at the regulations governing their manning. I suspect that you may need significant qualifications in terms of being the skipper/captain, plus there will almost certainly be a requirement to have a set number of qualified crew on board. Obtaining the necessary qualifications will take study time and sea time, so you'd do well to do the basic research now so that you can find out if it's practicable and make a start.

A boat of the size you're thinking of will usually need more than two people on board, especially when docking. Boats of that size will need someone at the helm plus two crew on deck as a minimum to handle ropes, fenders and the like, as the helm is likely to be some distance from the working deck where the mooring lines are. As an indication, with two of us on board a 38 foot sail boat we could often do with a third pair of hands when docking in anything other than ideal conditions.

All that said, I don't fully subscribe to the point of view that you won't be able to do long crossings nor that you will definitely need more crew. I know a couple who have a 65 foot motor boat, twin diesels, wooden displacement hull, who have been ambling round the Med for many years now. Because their boat cruises at no more than 9 knots and the engines are well matched to the boat, their fuel consumption is such that their bunkers last them about a year between refills. That said, their tanks hold just over two tonnes of fuel. So it is possible but you need to choose your boat carefully so that you can operate by yourselves and you need to gain the experience in boat handling.

From a personal point of view, there's a large bit of me which says just do it. Do the research about regulations, visit a few boats to see how much space there is one board, think about the problems of getting into places with craft at the larger end of the spectrum and perhaps adjust your ambitions regarding boat size a bit downwards and go for it.

Lady Gaga's granny?

 

[duncan99210]

Lady Gaga's granny?

Well, we always called her Kitten Heels but you know who I mean.....

 

[Tranona]

Living aboard in a confined space will eventually become claustrophobic so you need to consider getting away to do something else, like fishing. These things do an excellent job and you will be amazed at the number of bites you get:

http://www.walmart.com/browse/sports-outdoors/trolling-motors/4125_546956_111667_1079384_1079404

That would do well on a 100' Broward - ideal for mixing the cocktails or the rum punch.

 

[boatmike]

I think with due respect to other posters Duncan's reply is the most relevant to your situation so far. Without going into detail I spent a great deal of my working life as a project manager dealing with superyachts of far bigger size than you are contemplating and have sailed with all types of owners and crewed on several vessels larger than you are contemplating. First let me say that your ambitions are not uncommon and I have known several people who have successfully achieved what you are aspiring to. I think you have several things in your favour. One is that you have a realistic budget available but probably the most important is that you have time on your hands. Generally however I would suggest that a vessel of about 60-70ft overall is probably about right for you as, when you have gained the experience you need it can be handled without additional crew. Frankly at 100 ft you won't safely manage it without permanent paid crew and a 60-70ft boat can offer luxurious accommodation for two or more people which you won't actually improve upon by having a larger vessel. Your biggest problem is how to gain that essential knowledge and experience. One way certainly is to undertake formal training. Another, and one that is well within your budget, is to employ a professional yacht skipper, preferably one with engineering knowledge and formal seamanship qualifications to "skipper" your vessel for you for 2 years or so. During this period, if you make it clear to him from the outset that this is the aim, he can teach you most of what you need to know and you should, after this time be more than confident to carry on alone. I have in fact been involved in such arrangements myself and with the right chemistry it is a most rewarding way of learning. What I would NOT contemplate is trying to bite off more than you can chew and going it alone without qualified help. This might well work for a 30 ft boat sailing in coastal waters. In fact I would guess that is where most people on here started after perhaps doing some shore based theory, but this is not an easy route towards your aim and certainly not one that can be achieved quickly. While it is possible to learn by ones mistakes on a small vessel a minor accident with a 30 footer can translate into a disaster with a 100 ft vessel. Don't be put off however. With the right help you can become very competent in 2 years of cruising and the lessons you learn will give you the confidence to carry on for many years of liveaboard life afterwards. While you could well learn the hard way with a larger vessel, you will find about 60/70 ft to be an ideal size to start you on the right track so that you can learn to do things yourself. With due respect to other small boat owners, learning on a 30 footer won't qualify you for larger without a lot of extra experience anyway. Whatever you decide don't spend all of your budget on the boat. Keep a generous amount in reserve to fund the 2 year learning curve..... That way you will enjoy the experience and not get any nasty surprises! Good luck and fair winds. I hope this helps...
Mike

 

[blampied]

If you can afford to retire in 5 years with the sort of budget for a 100 foot boat, you can afford to retire now with enough budget for a boat half that size. Which is a more suitable size.
Starting retirement 5 years early on a boat will give you so much more time.
Having a 100 foot boat won't allow you to live 5 years longer to make up for the missed 5 years.

 

[candyman]

Huge thank you for all of the responses here. Tranona, Duncan99210 & boatmike, your replies were especially helpful. Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge with us.

Tranona, yes, we are U.S. citizens, but looking globally for our future. Absolutely willing to travel anywhere in the world to find the right boat, training, etc, when the time comes. We will look into Nordhavn and Fleming and start reading Steve Dashew's writings. Thank you.

We've been looking at motorboats primarily because I assumed they would be easier to handle shorthanded vs. a sailboat. We're not opposed to learning to sail if that's what it takes, but neither of us have ever been on a sailboat so we have no idea what we would be getting into. I have experience operating small motorboats on rivers. No saltwater experience (except as a passenger) and nothing over 37'.

It's clear we have a lot to learn. First step sounds like re-evaluating the motorboat plan as well as the size. I'm thinking vacations for the next few years will be on charters so we can get some solid first hand experience aboard various vessels. There's only so much one can do online.

First let me say that your ambitions are not uncommon and I have known several people who have successfully achieved what you are aspiring to.

I really appreciate this. I highly doubt we could live on a ~40ish foot boat long term. I lived in a 40' motor coach once for a few months and have spent time on a friend's 37' boat; neither had enough space or amenities that I'd want to make them home long term. Also, I don't want to sound arrogant, but operating my buddy's 37' with it's twin Detroit Diesels is child's play. I can back that sucker into its slip and tie it up myself with almost no effort. So I have a hard time buying into the idea that a 40-ish footer is all a couple could handle on their own. That's still a small boat to me.

We will look into vessels in the 60-70 foot range, spend some time on a few different boats, re-consider sailing, read until our eyes bleed and just go from there. I love your idea of hiring a skipper to stay with us for awhile and teach us the ropes; we had that same thought and will likely pursue it.

If you can afford to retire in 5 years with the sort of budget for a 100 foot boat, you can afford to retire now with enough budget for a boat half that size.

We could, yes, but our son is still in school and we're still enjoying the day to day work of running our small business. The boat is a retirement plan and we're just not ready to retire quite yet.

Again, thank you to everyone here for your responses. We really do appreciate your time and insight and will put it to good use.

 

[boatmike]

Well Hi again Candyman! And thanks for responding kindly. This forum represents a very wide gathering of people from all walks of life across many countries but the majority are small boat owners to whom the idea of a larger vessel such as you are contemplating is no more than a dream which they (and I) do not have the budget for. There are some of us here though that have some commercial experience of larger vessels although our own boats are modest, and that is why you are getting such a variety of replies.....
As you have expanded on your thoughts a little however I would add the following, especially as you do appear in fact to have some small craft experience on your buddies boat.

1. Sail v Power is an interesting question. Don't be put off sail because you have no experience. Go join a yacht club and talk to other owners. Many will be happy to take you out sailing if you share expenses and you will make many friends. Learning to sail in itself is a wonderful experience that will broaden your thoughts and capabilities even if you decide to buy a power craft. The advantage of sail is that within your budget you will be able to buy a sailboat that effectively has unlimited blue water range and you can pretty well go anywhere anytime. A power driven vessel is great for offshore work but a blue water power vessel to cross oceans puts you in another ball park. Having experience of true superyachts I can tell you that some of these puppies have annual refits that cost over $2m! Don't go there! Realistically in the sailboat scene there are more alternatives to look at, and remember that a sailboat without the sails unfurled is a motorboat.....

2. There are many ways to achieve the right experience. Most start on small craft and even learn to sail on dinghy's before they step on a larger boat. I didn't. I started by crewing as a 9 year old on my grandfathers Thames barge and I still don't like sailing on little yachts any more than I like driving little cars! My first boat was a wooden gaff rigged Cornish oyster boat and I have had all sorts of boats since then including multi-hulls, but gained most of my open water experience on superyachts working for people with much more money than I have! Now at 73 years of age I have a 33ft twin screw motorboat which my wife and I will take down the French canals to the Med this year. I still dream of the days I was blue water sailing however..... but hey ho I am still afloat!

3. With the necessary experience you will make your own decision but if it were me I would think very seriously about a large sailing catamaran. This is the point at which some readers will scream NO NO NO but the ones who have this reaction have never done it. Very few who go this way ever go back (unless like me they get old and trade down) The advantage is that on a 50 or 60 ft cat your accommodation is awesome, your living platform does not roll about like a pig at sea or at anchor and there is absolutely no reason a young fit couple like yourselves couldn't handle such a boat without help. If you are so inclined there are larger boats of this class to look at too but I personally wouldn't want to go bigger as you don't achieve much by doing so.
I don't know where you are in the USA (I used to live in San Diego in a past life) but there are always boat shows to go see, although to view large cats it's often better to contact one or more of the specialised brokers. I think if you take a good look at some of these you may well see an attraction.

Keep in touch and let us know how you get on!

 

[boatmike]

http://rumulti.com/2014/ will take you to Rob Underwood's brokerage page. I know Rob quite well. He is the ex CEO of Prout Catamarans and Broadblue Catamarans and what he doesn't know about big cats ain't worth knowing. He sells the big Catanas and there is a video on his site of the Catana 59 "Lazy Jack" if you look for it. There are also larger versions. Take a look!

 

[candyman]

Mike,

I'm positively jealous of your superyacht experience! I've dreamed of spending significant time on one for most of my life. I remember drooling over the Maltese Falcon when she was launched... I'd love to spend some time on a ship like that. If I were single and childless, I think crewing aboard superyachts would be amazing work.

(Speaking of the Maltese Falcon, I see they're chartering her now, only half a million per week! The world the super-rich live in just blows my mind... some of us work decades to earn the same kind of money these people make every minute. But that's another topic for another day...)

It's funny you mention a cat; I chartered one in Barbados a few years ago and really enjoyed it. It was 30-ish feet, not big enough to live on but perfect for a day trip. We'll definitely give this idea further consideration as well.

I'd love to hear more about your experience owning and sailing a catamaran.

I'm Ryan, by the way. My grandfather worked as a distributor for a major candy making company and used Candyman as his CB handle so I figured I'd resurrect the moniker in his honor.

Thank you again for your time.