Germany to revamp its Phonetic Alphabet

ithet

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Yes, not sure who would actually be using this phonetic alphabet. Assume it is for use with German only. Most official communications use English and the ICAO alphabet don't they?
 

prv

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Yes, not sure who would actually be using this phonetic alphabet. Assume it is for use with German only. Most official communications use English and the ICAO alphabet don't they?

Presumably this is similar to the way my mum says "V for Victory" and "E for Edward" on the phone, only the Germans, being big fans of codifying and standardising things, have standardised telephone-mother-ese ;)

Pete
 

Slowboat35

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What on earth is Germany doing using its own phonetic alphabet when the rest of us (the rest of the world?) changed to the internationally recognised and standardised one many decades ago? (1956?)

As if we'd continued Able Baker Charlie Dog...

Seems peculiar to me, Item Mike How Oboe.
 

JumbleDuck

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What on earth is Germany doing using its own phonetic alphabet when the rest of us (the rest of the world?) changed to the internationally recognised and standardised one many decades ago? (1956?)
In today's surprising news, languages other than English exist.

What are the NATO phonetic alphabet words for ä, ö, ü and ß? How about á, ç, and ñ?
 

alan_d

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In today's surprising news, languages other than English exist.

What are the NATO phonetic alphabet words for ä, ö, ü and ß? How about á, ç, and ñ?
Might it not be more sensible to add them (if it hasn't already been done) rather than having a competing standard? And what about þ (for our Icelandic friends)?
 

davidaprice

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What are the NATO phonetic alphabet words for ä, ö, ü and ß? How about á, ç, and ñ?
With the NATO phonetic alphabet, standard usage in Finland is å = alphaalpha, ä = alphaecho, ö = oscarecho. I'm pretty sure this is the same in Sweden. Perhaps other countries have corresponding rules? (The same rules are used when writing Finnish names on international airline tickets, e.g. Rämö becomes Raemoe).
 

JumbleDuck

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Might it not be more sensible to add them (if it hasn't already been done) rather than having a competing standard? And what about þ (for our Icelandic friends)?
Stuff Iceland. What about yogh for us Scots?
With the NATO phonetic alphabet, standard usage in Finland is å = alphaalpha, ä = alphaecho, ö = oscarecho. I'm pretty sure this is the same in Sweden. Perhaps other countries have corresponding rules? (The same rules are used when writing Finnish names on international airline tickets, e.g. Rämö becomes Raemoe).
The Punkte in German were originally a small mark above an a, o or u to say that an e followed but that the monk writing the manuscript was saving time and ink by omitting it. The characters can be written ae, oe and ue, and that's common with capitals. However, if you want to describe exactly how a word is spelled and not just convey what it is, you need a way of distinguishing the Punkte version from the -e version.

Odd fact: the word "umlaut" is almost unknown in Germany.
 

Leighb

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Stuff Iceland. What about yogh for us Scots?

The Punkte in German were originally a small mark above an a, o or u to say that an e followed but that the monk writing the manuscript was saving time and ink by omitting it. The characters can be written ae, oe and ue, and that's common with capitals. However, if you want to describe exactly how a word is spelled and not just convey what it is, you need a way of distinguishing the Punkte version from the -e version.

Odd fact: the word "umlaut" is almost unknown in Germany.
Interesting fact of the week, I speak some German but never knew the origin. Thanks.
 

Slowboat35

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In today's surprising news, languages other than English exist.

What are the NATO phonetic alphabet words for ä, ö, ü and ß? How about á, ç, and ñ?
What an extraordinary reply! Whoever would have imagined it!

NATO has an agreed phonetic alphabet - Germany is in NATO, why would it need another? The rest of NATO manages perfectly well on the standardised one. The entire rest of the world manages to be standardised on that same phonetic alphabet in aviation, shipping and many other fields.
Additionally the specific phonetics you rather bizarrely queried are not necessary for comprehension, they're for pronounciation - as if you didn't know. The military tend not to draft signals in high literary styles!
Additionally German is not one of the official NATO languages in any case...
 
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AntarcticPilot

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What an extraordinary reply! Whoever would have imagined it!

NATO has an agreed phonetic alphabet - Germany is in NATO, why would it need another? The rest of NATO manages perfectly well without their own it seems. (The hint is in the word 'standard'...)The entire rest of the world manages to be standardised on that same phonetic alphabet in aviation, shipping and many other fields.
Additionally the specific phonetics you rather bizarrely queried are not necessary for comprehension, they're for pronounciation - as if you didn't know. The military tend not to draft signals in high literary styles!
In addition German is not one of the official NATO languages in any case...
I entirely agree about the need for standardization.

However, as far as all my non-English speaking colleagues were concerned when I worked on Antarctic Placenames, the various accented characters were not merely guides to pronunciation - accented characters were different characters from the unaccented versions, and a name represented without its accents was incorrectly spelled. And, of course, there are characters such as the Icelandic Thorn and Eth which have no equivalent in the standard Roman alphabet (we had them back in Anglo-Saxon days!)

Most languages have a much less flexible orthography than English does - the spelling is, in the vast majority of cases, a totally reliable indication of the pronunciation, unlike English where "ough" can be "bough", "though", "cough" and many more! So accents are, in those languages, a necessary part of the spelling of a word.
 

Gary Fox

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Every word in the German language was used by 'The Nazis' at some point, so this is ridiculous posturing, will they ever get over WW2?

'Segfried' (Kraut for 'Sierra' apparently) by Wagner was one of Adolf's favourites, and he dreamed of seeing it performed.

In the Albert Hall...
 

Gary Fox

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The DDR merchant navy had their own phonetic alphabet as well, I remember finding it on a ship, but don't remember any. Marx instead of Mike etc I would guess.
 

AntarcticPilot

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Every word in the German language was used by 'The Nazis' at some point, so this is ridiculous posturing, will they ever get over WW2?

'Segfried' (Kraut for 'Sierra' apparently) by Wagner was one of Adolf's favourites, and he dreamed of seeing it performed.

In the Albert Hall...
Not quite - my mother learnt German in the 1930s, and the Nazis had a policy of replacing Greek based words with Germanic equivalents. The example she gave that has stuck is "fernsprecher" in place of "telefonen" - apologies for my bad spelling in German; I never learnt more than enough to order a beer! But almost all words with a Greek or Latin basis were similarly replaced. I don't think many have remained in use.
 

duncan99210

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The NATO standard alphabet is aimed at minimising the chance of misunderstanding when spelling words on a poor connection. It ignores the vagaries of accented letters in a whole slew of languages by opting for a reasonable degree of clarity without complications. It’s been adopted for aviation and marine communications for just that reason.
If the German’s want to reinvent the wheel with their own version, that no problem to me or to most of the world.
 

savageseadog

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Every word in the German language was used by 'The Nazis' at some point, so this is ridiculous posturing, will they ever get over WW2?

'Segfried' (Kraut for 'Sierra' apparently) by Wagner was one of Adolf's favourites, and he dreamed of seeing it performed.

In the Albert Hall...

Will we?
 

AntarcticPilot

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The NATO standard alphabet is aimed at minimising the chance of misunderstanding when spelling words on a poor connection. It ignores the vagaries of accented letters in a whole slew of languages by opting for a reasonable degree of clarity without complications. It’s been adopted for aviation and marine communications for just that reason.
If the German’s want to reinvent the wheel with their own version, that no problem to me or to most of the world.
But what about words with different meanings when spelt with or without accents? They exist!

The basic point is that to a non-English speaker, an accented character is a different character to the accented version. They are NOT merely guides to pronunciation, and any international alphabet needs to accept that and take it into account. The NATO standard phonetic alphabet is an excellent start - but it needs expansion to cover languages other than English.

I should mention that I (and many others!) breathed an enormous sigh of relief when UTF encoding came along, giving a simple and unambiguous way to represent the characters used in non-English languages!
 
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