Gas rage!

[Whaup367]

Calor said they plan to discontinue the 4.5kg bottles in favour of the more profitable patiogas and camping gas so probably not entirely over.

Are you sure? As far as I can tell that's an unfounded rumour.

A few have reported that their local reps have said... not clear from where those reps have heard....

A poster on another forum asked Calor themselves recently (summer '22) and reported the following:

"For information of members...I have been in touch with Calor Gas regarding rumours that the 4.5kg cylinders were going to be discontinued.
This is untrue. There are no plans to discontinue this size of cylinder.
The problem they are having is supply/demand...their priority is refilling cylinders for home heating, commercial and industrial use."

...and there's no mention of it on their website, that I can see. IMHO, it wouldn't make sense, commercially (though that might not stop them, I know there are many who would question the wisdom of their decisioning!). Patiogas might be more profitable but it's basically a way to make propane available conveniently for domestic users (tool-less clip on regulator instead of bullnose, gauge available), an additional market, rather than an upsell. The cylinders aren't size-compatible, so they'd struggle to market them as replacements, especially given the potential for problems with older appliances & systems designed for butane. Campingaz is a refill contract with another company AFAICT, so it would be a substantial commercial risk to drive a changeover from a market you have a huge stake in (C.R.As, installed base, regulator fitting) to one that could be lost to a competitor by another company changing suppliers. The only change that would seem to me to make sense would be to switch to clip-fit 4.5Kg butanes (as supplied by Flogas etc) to replace screw-fit ones, so that users could have the same butane/universal regulator for all four sizes of "blue bottle"... and I expect that's something they've rejected but continue to keep under review!

Is there anything to support the claim, please?

 

[lustyd]

Is there anything to support the claim, please?

Have you read the thread? Three years without availability and an apparent over abundance of empty bottles with every retailer. If they intended to fill them and stay in the market they’ve had every opportunity. The lack of cylinders is demonstrably BS as highlighted by numerous posters.

 

[Whaup367]

Have you read the thread? Three years without availability and an apparent over abundance of empty bottles with every retailer. If they intended to fill them and stay in the market they’ve had every opportunity. The lack of cylinders is demonstrably BS as highlighted by numerous posters.

Of course I've read the thread. Calor have repeatedly, if belatedly & reluctantly, agreed that there's a problem which they have claimed is temporary and from recent messages and observations, it may be that it is being overcome.

In addition to what I've posted above... it would seem to me that if they really did want to phase them out they would be seizing on the refill problems at one of their plants, the recall issue with the batch of 4.5s they got and the sudden uptick in demand to push people to change over to something else (as many have done), not assuring people that they would fix the problem and sending out cylinders with shiny fresh paint!

What they have not stated, as far as I can tell, is that they plan to stop supplying 4.5s, as you claim above, indeed they seem to have denied it quite recently.

Hence the question: Is there anything to support that claim?

 

[lustyd]

The important question for yachties is whether there’s a shred of evidence they will reliably supply gas. Three years in and I can see no evidence of reliable supply, just empty statements or plain silence.
I couldn’t care less whether they do or don’t continue with the 4.5kg, they marred two seasons for me and many others and it’s foolish to believe they will get it together suddenly in 2023 without a shred of evidence. Right now they’re maintaining their monopoly by somehow convincing their dealers that they don’t need to sell gas. I can only assume there’s more to that behind the scenes as none of the dealers I’ve spoken to are considering changing except B&M who seem happy to have moved to FloGas.

As it happens, I do consider every dealer I spoke to this summer (probably 50 in total) saying they were discontinued as pretty good evidence. They are Calor representatives in the market after all.

 

[Whaup367]

The important question for yachties is whether there’s a shred of evidence they will reliably supply gas. Three years in and I can see no evidence of reliable supply, just empty statements or plain silence.

Well, the presence of a batch of freshly painted, full 4.5Kg butanes & 3.9Kg propanes available for sale locally seems to offer some evidence of that to me: Hard, physical evidence that these cylinders are currently being refilled.

I couldn’t care less whether they do or don’t continue with the 4.5kg, they marred two seasons for me and many others and it’s foolish to believe they will get it together suddenly in 2023 without a shred of evidence.

You seem to care quite a lot! To be honest, I don't expect them to fix it suddenly; I imagine it will take a bit of time, given what we know, but I think it will take them less time than it would take to persuade every Calor-stocking marina to change suppliers and every boater to dump their Calor bottles for alternatives.

Right now they’re maintaining their monopoly by somehow convincing their dealers that they don’t need to sell gas. I can only assume there’s more to that behind the scenes as none of the dealers I’ve spoken to are considering changing except B&M who seem happy to have moved to FloGas.

It's not really a monopoly if you can switch suppliers. They are dominant but that's been to our advantage for many years and IMHO will be again. I understand that you disagree.

As it happens, I do consider every dealer I spoke to this summer (probably 50 in total) saying they were discontinued as pretty good evidence. They are Calor representatives in the market after all.

Every one of fifty dealers told you that they were discontinued? Come on, if that's true then someone must have an email, at least!

...and calor have been in the business for quite a while. The recent issues have only been over the last few years, with reasons they've accounted for. They have not been universal, either: as I've previously stated. I've also highlighted my concerns about your proposed solution.

Maybe it would be helpful if you could stop spreading the rumour until you have some hard evidence to back it up?

 

[lustyd]

Maybe it would be helpful if you could stop spreading the rumour until you have some hard evidence to back it up?

If it were three months maybe. Unfortunately it takes effort to break a monopoly and convince people to vote with their feet for at least one other option. Your post is nothing but hearsay and goes against the large number of posts to the contrary so I will happily assume for now that either you work for Calor or have some other vested interest in maintaining that monopoly. Yes, monopoly is the correct word, and charges to that effect are in progress as mentioned earlier on the thread. These are being brought by the inland waterway users and their more effective representative organisation. Sadly we have the RYA and YM to represent us, both of which posted the Calor spiel as an explanation without any attempt to help fix the core issues or get real answers.

 

[BobnLesley]

...they marred two seasons for me and many others...

If the worst disruption/problem to have befallen your last two sailing seasons has been the difficulty in finding Calor gas immediately to hand, I and I suspect those many others would be counting you a lucky chap.

 

[lustyd]

If the worst disruption/problem to have befallen your last two sailing seasons has been the difficulty in finding Calor gas immediately to hand, I and I suspect those many others would be counting you a lucky chap.

It’s not that it wasn’t immediately to hand, it simply wasn’t available meaning no cooked meals or hot drinks on passage. Did you even read the thread?

 

[BobnLesley]

... meaning no cooked meals or hot drinks on passage...

Frustrating certainly, but doesn't that reflect equally poorly on the skipper that you sailed with, particularly if he allowed it to happen twice. In future sail with one who has the foresight and flexibility to either avoid or resolve such difficulties, that as much as reading the chart and trimming the sails is what separates the wheat from the chaff.

 

[lustyd]

I was the skipper and without changing supplier there was no way to buy gas because Calor have not supplied it consistently for three years. It’s all in the thread so perhaps you’re just stirring the pot.

 

[BobnLesley]

... It’s all in the thread so perhaps you’re just stirring the pot.

No, simply asking why after becoming aware of a problem which had so seriously impinged upon one sailing season you didn't apparently do anything to avoid or at least mitigate a reoccurrence? If you hadn't want to change supplier then why not obtain/fill an extra bottle and carry that, or at the very least stow a thermos flask for hot drinks?

 

[lustyd]

No, simply asking why after becoming aware of a problem which had so seriously impinged upon one sailing season you didn't apparently do anything to avoid or at least mitigate a reoccurrence? If you hadn't want to change supplier then why not obtain/fill an extra bottle and carry that, or at the very least stow a thermos flask for hot drinks?

As stated throughout the thread constant assurances that supply issues were temporary played a large part. Lots of us were fooled by the occasional appearance of a bottle. There’s even a reassuring (BS) article in YM now telling us not to panic, the monopolist will sort it, no need to change supplier. I started the thread for awareness but it’s been interesting watching people defend Calor in the face of all evidence. Some I’m sure have vested interests, others just ignorant to the extent of the issues and hoping for the best. Mine is sorted with FloGas and a backup camping stove, others have done similar, others kicked the can down the road and bought that one cylinder that appeared (please sir, may I have another?) in the hope that next time they won’t have to search for several months. Each to their own, but unless and until there’s evidence to support a genuine change I plan to challenge every post in this thread in the hope of real change and consumer choice. It’s strange how many are arguing strenuously against consumer choice.

 

[BobnLesley]

...Some I’m sure have vested interests... Mine is sorted with FloGas and a backup camping stove ...
It’s strange how many are arguing strenuously against consumer choice.

On any subject there invariably are.
Good to see you've sorted things for next season at least.
I haven't noted 'many arguing strenuously against consumer choice' though there are some who are not wholly endorsing your opinion; is that why you brand them ignorant?

 

[lustyd]

Ignorant to the extent of the issues means they’re unaware of the scale of the problem. It’s quite clear that a lot of people finding one cylinder that’s full have assumed there isn’t a problem.
That’s different than “branding them ignorant”

 

[Stemar]

ISTM that it's Calor who are arguing against consumer choice by failing to provide a product used by hundreds of boaters.

I recently emptied a 4.5kg butane bottle, so nosed around SOCAL and Force 4's websites. Neither lists them any more, though SOCAL does offer to sell the new series bottles. If I can't get a refill. I'll be changing supplier, as my regulators are old enough that a change is on my to do list anyway. Is Flogas owned by Calor and, if so, is there another easily available supplier that won't be putting money in Calor's pockets?

 

[lustyd]

FloGas is a separate supplier with depots and shops all over the country. No affiliation to Calor that I could see. Far fewer shops than Calor but their depots are open to the public for refills so you’ll always get a fill regardless even if there’s a bit of a drive involved. They do deliver to your door but it can take a few days. The 4.5 is very similar dimensions so will usually be a straight swap.

 

[Shaddickp]

Go to Greece. I get my 907's refilled for 6 euro a pop. Mind you the guy that does it doesn't seem too mind about health and safety much.

 

[cpedw]

Well, the presence of a batch of freshly painted, full 4.5Kg butanes & 3.9Kg propanes available for sale locally seems to offer some evidence of that to me: Hard, physical evidence that these cylinders are currently being refilled.

Can you share where "locally " is?

 

[Whaup367]

Can you share where "locally " is?

Tarbert, Argyll. Local to both of us, if not lustyd & Stemar? :-(

FloGas is a separate supplier with depots and shops all over the country. No affiliation to Calor that I could see. Far fewer shops than Calor but their depots are open to the public for refills so you’ll always get a fill regardless even if there’s a bit of a drive involved. They do deliver to your door but it can take a few days. The 4.5 is very similar dimensions so will usually be a straight swap.

So, about this monopoly you claim Calor holds...

Ignorant to the extent of the issues means they’re unaware of the scale of the problem. It’s quite clear that a lot of people finding one cylinder that’s full have assumed there isn’t a problem.
That’s different than “branding them ignorant”

There has been a significant problem in some areas (particularly, it would seem, the south (east?) of England). It may be that things are starting to improve, I reported above that my marina has a few freshly painted 4.5s in stock. I don't know exactly how many because they were surrounded by lots of other full cylinders (3.9s, 6s, 7s and bigger ones). I guess that for most people looking to exchange a single cylinder, finding one full one means they don't have a problem.

@Stemar Stemar- Check the regulator fittings. From their website, it looks to me like Flogas 4.5s use 21mm clip-on regs, the same as used on 7s, 12s & 15s. Calor come with threaded fittings, as Idaresay you know . They may supply both, I don't know, but they do state that they don't take Calor cylinders in exchange. Obviously, if you use different sizes of butane cylinders it's more convenient to have the same connector but if you only have a Calor 4.5 reg you will probably need to buy a new one. As @Boathook said near the beginning of this thread, most marinas won't stock 4.5s with this fitting, so you run the risk of not being able to swap when you don't have a car available. Depends what capacity you have for storage, you could potentially carry one of each 4.5 with regulators, and exchange & replumb as necessary... or switch to 7s?

 

[lustyd]

So, about this monopoly you claim Calor holds..

most marinas won't stock 4.5s with this fitting, so you run the risk of not being able to swap when you don't have a car available

Not sure which way you’re trying to argue, or why? If it’s impossible to get non calor they have a monopoly. If you’re recommending not changing because only Calor is available it’s a monopoly. They have successfully prevented competition as you demonstrate in this post, they are a monopoly. Even though they’ve not supplied gas cylinders for three straight years the competition has been unable to break into the market, they’re a monopoly!