First Sailboat Purchase Looming - Friendly Advice Appreciated!

John_Silver

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As well as influencing condition (which is what I take you to be getting at), going further back, in time, will bring in different design philosophies / boat shapes. For better, or worse!

For example: the long keeled, short static waterline, narrow (by modern standards) beam Rustler 36 was launched in 1980. Nominally a similar length to your shortlisted 2001 Bav 34 or the 2005 Bene 37. But in reality an utterly different proposition. In terms of performance characteristics and accommodation. Your personal ‘sweet spot’ on that design continuum may be a(nother) factor, to throw into the mix, in deciding what age of boats to look at……
 
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Chiara’s slave

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As well as influencing condition (which is what I take you to be getting at), going further back, in time, will bring in different design philosophies / boat shapes. For better, or worse!

For example: the long keeled, short static waterline, narrow (by modern standards) beam Rustler 36 was launched in 1980. Nominally a similar length to your shortlisted 2001 Bav 34 or the 2005 Bene 37. But in reality an utterly different proposition. In terms of performance characteristics and accommodation. Your personal ‘sweet spot’ on that design continuum may be a(nother) factor, to throw into the mix, in deciding what age of boats to look at……
Very well put. Of course an 80s boat may have been maintained in near perfect condition, or woefully neglected, or fully restored. I would not be at all surprised to find that Rustler to be in way better order than a AWB 25 years younger. Modern boats are often mere consumer durable items, ultimately disposable items. Something like a Rustler is often owned with passion.
 

ylop

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More useful information, thanks guys. I'm going to throw another question in the mix as I think it's pertinent to this thread, which is:

How old is too old? Bear in mind a survey would always be requested by me. Even with that, would a 1980s boat be something you thought "no thanks"?
I’d rather have a 1980s boat that has been lovingly maintained, sensibly upgraded and designed for the sort of boating I want to do Than a 2012 model made to the minimum budget abused by novice charterers and with not a penny spent on it and an interior layout optimised for cramming in as many bodies as possible etc.

That’s not to say there aren’t good new boats, and there aren’t a lot of old boats which have become neglected, but age alone wouldn’t be my deciding factor.
 

dunedin

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More useful information, thanks guys. I'm going to throw another question in the mix as I think it's pertinent to this thread, which is:

How old is too old? Bear in mind a survey would always be requested by me. Even with that, would a 1980s boat be something you thought "no thanks"?
GRP generally lasts for ages (though balsa cores do not). Aluminium masts generally last for ages (though some fittings less so).
So a 1980s “boat” is not usually an issue (though generally less space inside than similar LOA modern boats).

BUT 1980s engine, or electronics, or rigging or sails not so good. In some cases many or all of these may have been carefully updated, and could be newer than those on a 2000 boat. But it varies - a lot.
Worth checking things like having self tailing winches and electric anchor windlass, as these can be expensive to replace / upgrade.

Key question for you is - are you happy to have a bit of a project and have the time, skills and money to do upgrades?
But many spend more time doing this than actually sailing. Or if time poor and want to actually go sailing, do you need something that is in good ready to go condition?
 

Tranona

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More useful information, thanks guys. I'm going to throw another question in the mix as I think it's pertinent to this thread, which is:

How old is too old? Bear in mind a survey would always be requested by me. Even with that, would a 1980s boat be something you thought "no thanks"?
Perhaps the 2 things to consider are style of boat and condition. Generally speaking in the size range you are looking at newer boats are "bigger" and mostly lighter displacement. These two examples of older/newer illustrate the key differences Westerly Fulmar sailboatdata.com/sailboat/fulmar-32-westerly/ and Bavaria 32 sailboatdata.com/sailboat/bavaria-32/. Newer are lighter, less ballast, greater sail area in relation to displacement and wider (particularly aft) shallower hulls. The consequences are older boats generally better in heavier weather, have smaller cockpits and less accommodation space. While older boats may be more heavily built the original standards of equipment such as electric, plumbing, engines domestic equipment are not as good as later boats.

Many people prefer the older style and you can find examples that have been well maintained and updated, but over time such good examples have become less common as the cost of keeping up to date increases in relation to the value of the boat. If your budget is +/- £40k you have a wide choice of both types.
 

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On age, many older boats will have had multiple refits and you can be lucky and find one with well installed, modern systems, new engine, sails etc. That said, if I had your budget for my first boat I’d be looking at finding a lightly used Jeanneau, Beneteau, Bavaria, or Dufour from 2000ish, in the 32-34’ size. It will be a good platform for learning, and easy to sell once you work out what you actually want.
 

ashtead

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As an indication when we looking to buy a boat back in 2000 we started off looking at older second hand boats such as a Moody s31 but soon found we could have brand new Bavaria for price of a 10 0r so year old Moody or even Hallberg. We chose the newer Bav due to new equipment,engine,sails heads etc,no old boat smell ,more space, 3 sleeping cabins etc. we did I recall see at a secondhand boat show a very nicely maintained s31 which was nearest competion We then started looking at Legends but realised they were pricier than Bav. Island packets new were out of budget. No new Westerly were then being made and having sailed Bene in the Med we found them rather rolly and not so well constructed etc. we didn’t really look at Hanse and as always any Nordic boat was probably 25% more and we thought slower even if a Maxi would have appealed . Some Nordic boats are cramped in bow cabin . Clearly one’s choice is dependent on usage though -as newbies to our own ownership but having sailed on westerly since mid 70s a Bav looked very smart but had the dark woodwork but with unheard of luxuries like heating,hot shower,autopilot easy handling under mot etc. it’s all down therefore to crew expectations -you might be more likely to return to port in Bav when planning a cross channel trip but it’s often down to crew reluctance as opposed to the boat not being able to make it eventually .
 

reyes

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Key question for you is - are you happy to have a bit of a project and have the time, skills and money to do upgrades?
But many spend more time doing this than actually sailing. Or if time poor and want to actually go sailing, do you need something that is in good ready to go condition?

It's a very good question. As it happens, I have a kitted out workshop with a fairly large CNC so woodwork wise I'd be pretty set. But, I spend my time working all week (like a lot of us) and what I'd like to break away from working all the time like I often have, get a boat I love, and then love sailing it. So, whilst I'm happy to get my hands dirty to bring something into a nicer cleaner state, I'm refraining from being those people I've seen on YouTube etc. where they get a boat and spend 2 seasons messing with it!

Many people prefer the older style and you can find examples that have been well maintained and updated, but over time such good examples have become less common as the cost of keeping up to date increases in relation to the value of the boat. If your budget is +/- £40k you have a wide choice of both types.

I spend most of my time looking at boats and, whilst it's enjoyable and I'm fortunate to have a reasonable budget, I don't seem to be seeing anything jump out! I did put an offer in for that slightly charter-bashed Bene but haven't heard back. If nothing materialises there, one of the Bavaria's (34 or 35) for £39k or so I think I'll have a go at for £33.5k or something (is that too cheeky?).

On age, many older boats will have had multiple refits and you can be lucky and find one with well installed, modern systems, new engine, sails etc. That said, if I had your budget for my first boat I’d be looking at finding a lightly used Jeanneau, Beneteau, Bavaria, or Dufour from 2000ish, in the 32-34’ size. It will be a good platform for learning, and easy to sell once you work out what you actually want.
Amen to that -- they're exactly what I'm looking for so your and others' advice seems to be rubbing off on me!
 

PabloPicasso

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I'm always so grateful to people who take time out of their days to help a stranger, so thank you very much for all the comments and advice so far.

I did omit a bit of context relating to the boat to give an idea of its state:

- 2005 model
- Standing rigging "renewed in 2021"
- Slab mainsail with lazyjacks
- 40hp shaft drive (which I think prevents the elevated expense of sail drive seals?) - last serviced winter 2023
Saildrive diaghrams volvo say should be changed every 7 years.

I cant see why anyone would, they last decades

Changed mine from 1981 about 4 years ago. It was perfect and I needn't have bothered.
 

John_Silver

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Saildrive diaghrams volvo say should be changed every 7 years.

I cant see why anyone would, they last decades

Changed mine from 1981 about 4 years ago. It was perfect and I needn't have bothered.

On the other hand, mine came out (last week), aged 15 years old, with this split evident. But only once it was removed. As Clint Eastwood famously enquired: "....Do you feel lucky today, punk.....?"

LoResP1010938 (1).JPG
 
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John_Silver

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Ineresting. Pressumably it wasn't leaking, or was that why you changed it?

No sign of a leak, nor of a split, when inspected in situ (I have a nav table type spotlight, on a flexible arm, installed above the back of the engine, for the purpose)…….This year I finally responded to many years of annual ‘advisories,’ from the local Yanmar agent. Glad I did!

When I asked, he said that his experience is that lifespan is variable. Not directly related to run hours or straight age. Some are like yours, going on ‘forever.’ Some, like mine, don’t……

EDIT I also learned that both the Volvo and the Yanmar saildrive diaphragms are made by the same company, of the same material. BUT that the Yanmar design has a double skin, with a water ingress alarm probe sandwiched between; whereas the Volvo design has only a single thickness. Another factor to consider, when deciding how far to push your luck. (This, from a joint Yanmar / Volvo agent).
 
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Concerto

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Perhaps the 2 things to consider are style of boat and condition. Generally speaking in the size range you are looking at newer boats are "bigger" and mostly lighter displacement. These two examples of older/newer illustrate the key differences Westerly Fulmar sailboatdata.com/sailboat/fulmar-32-westerly/ and Bavaria 32 sailboatdata.com/sailboat/bavaria-32/. Newer are lighter, less ballast, greater sail area in relation to displacement and wider (particularly aft) shallower hulls. The consequences are older boats generally better in heavier weather, have smaller cockpits and less accommodation space. While older boats may be more heavily built the original standards of equipment such as electric, plumbing, engines domestic equipment are not as good as later boats.

Many people prefer the older style and you can find examples that have been well maintained and updated, but over time such good examples have become less common as the cost of keeping up to date increases in relation to the value of the boat. If your budget is +/- £40k you have a wide choice of both types.
Perhaps you should have also shown how dated the Contessa 32 is by comparison.

CONTESSA 32 - sailboatdata

I should point out that the Bavaria is nearly 34ft compared to the Fulmar at just under 32ft, so not a fair comparison in reality. The Fulmar has a larger cockpit than many boats of a similar size. The Fulmar was designed without any restrictions for rating rules and was a hand built boat designed for northern European waters rather than Mediterranean type climates and has things like proper solid lee boards in the main cabin bunks, plenty of handholds in the right places. They are highly rated boats for all purposes from sailing schools through to match racing, something almost unheard of in current sailing yachts. I know I am biased owning a Fulmar but I could have bought a new 32ft yacht but disliked so many of the "features" of modern design, instead I have bought and renovated Concerto to an almost new condition for a third of the cost of a new yacht at the time.


Below is the photo of my Fulmar and a Contessa 32 alongside. The Fulmar is wider, slightly greater topside height and a much wider transom. I was chatting with John Silver yesterday and he commented the Fulmar was far more advanced than most boats of that era.

IMG_8244 1000pix.jpg

SADLER 32 - sailboatdata
 

wonkywinch

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Saildrive diaghrams volvo say should be changed every 7 years.

I cant see why anyone would, they last decades

Changed mine from 1981 about 4 years ago. It was perfect and I needn't have bothered.
To satisfy the insurers? Having said that, mine is now 9 years old, plan to change it next year for peace of mind.
 

Tzu

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is that too cheeky?
No. not too cheeky but be careful how you offer it. I was in the fairly recent position of both seller and buyer but not in that order. When I made a 'cheeky' (or so I thought) offer I detailed exactly why it was that price though - my communication was to the broker and included details of other comparable boats currently being marketed along with links to their listings. My offer was accepted and I found myself with two boats as I needed to proceed. When selling I got a couple of cheeky offers without explanation of their basis, the second of which was immediately upped to the (by now cheap) asking price when I asked what the basis was. For me it was an opportunity to re-state what the buyer would be missing but very tempting to tell the man haggling to do one
 

Tranona

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Right we have a new strong lead on a purchase... Looking at this:https://www.originyachts.co.uk/yachts/1997-bavaria-35-cruiser/2634217

Hypothetically, were it obtainable at ~£36k what would you guys think to it?
I know that boat well - but pretty sure it has been sold. It was a one owner from new and he operated it as aa sailing school for many years and always kept it up to date. It had a few adventures on the way and about 5 years ago had a complete new rig. Sadly he died 2 ears ago - heart attack while out sailing on his own and his son cleaned it up. it was in Poole Yacht Club, but disappeared last summer, which is why I think it has been sold. The son was keen to settle his dads's estate. If it were available it would be a good buy. The asking price is reasonable.
 

ylop

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I’m not sure how the market is right now, but generally spring is the worst time to buy as people are excited about a new season ahead and willing to pay a slight premium, whereas when autumn approached owners are grudging another years winter storage and keen to offload!

Some people obsess with trying to get a good deal and are convinced they should never pay asking price. I shared a finger pontoon with a guy who sold up and the buyer squeezed him on price as much as he could. As a consequence he sold the dinghy, outboard, various spare sails and engine parts, life jackets, tools etc on eBay. The following weekend the new owner was there excited by his new purchase but grumbling about how much he’d had to spend on all the extras just so he could use it!

My gut feel is that Bav is about the right price. You might negotiate a little (if Tranona is wrong and it is still available) but I would suggest viewing boats with the expectation of paying advertised price rather than “if I could get it for…” the art of pricing boats is not that precise - +/-10% is easily the difference between personal tastes. In fact, when you find the right boat you’ll just know and the actual number is less relevant.
 

doug748

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Perhaps you should have also shown how dated the Contessa 32 is by comparison.

CONTESSA 32 - sailboatdata
.......

On the theme of Contessa I note that Pierre-Andre Huglo is due to return from his second non stop circumnavigation on his Contessa 32. Locals may like to greet him in Lorient:

Accueil | Longue Route 2024

Engineless and with hank on foresails, Pierre has a very minimal electrical system. I doubt that performance, and seaworthiness ever really dates much.

.
 

mrming

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I’m not sure how the market is right now, but generally spring is the worst time to buy as people are excited about a new season ahead and willing to pay a slight premium, whereas when autumn approached owners are grudging another years winter storage and keen to offload!

Some people obsess with trying to get a good deal and are convinced they should never pay asking price. I shared a finger pontoon with a guy who sold up and the buyer squeezed him on price as much as he could. As a consequence he sold the dinghy, outboard, various spare sails and engine parts, life jackets, tools etc on eBay. The following weekend the new owner was there excited by his new purchase but grumbling about how much he’d had to spend on all the extras just so he could use it!

My gut feel is that Bav is about the right price. You might negotiate a little (if Tranona is wrong and it is still available) but I would suggest viewing boats with the expectation of paying advertised price rather than “if I could get it for…” the art of pricing boats is not that precise - +/-10% is easily the difference between personal tastes. In fact, when you find the right boat you’ll just know and the actual number is less relevant.
Correct. Although overall prices go up and down, the idea of a "deal" in a used yacht is not usually what it seems. Unless you're lucky enough to find a seller with a great boat who has to get rid right now, for an extraordinary reason. Paradoxically, if you can find them, the "deals" can be in the boats with higher asking prices which have been well maintained and have up to date equipment. As a seller you never get back what you put into your boat, and if you keep her well, the next owner benefits from your recent spending.
 
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