First Sailboat Purchase Looming - Friendly Advice Appreciated!

[ashtead]

One advantage of the stack pack is it tends to be far quicker to drop and while care is required as to the direction you are heading it does mean you can often motor sail up to mouth of river ,make a quick turn into wind and drop and return to previous course . Clearly not an idea for a narrow channel but it’s possible there as well . Whether you can reel in an inmast quickly tended not to be my impression from med charters but as said they are less demanding certainly. As for reefing on a Bav34 you can free off the traveller and to honest if going upwind for any distance unless in wide open spaces you are probably best to reef around 15kn to maintain control as they head up otherwise unless your crew is attentive particularly if your headsail is the standard full cut version. What you tend to do is get that headsail down to a better size fairly quickly anyway. I cannot really speak as to speed but in light airs they will outsail an equivalent Hallberg of similar era . Once it gets to say 20kn the Hallberg will be happy though whereas the Bav needs the reefing in well before

 

[reyes]

Good to hear from people with experience from in mast vs slab; I ended up watching a few videos and you guys seem to be echoing what I heard there which is not just letting go of lines but following the process (the RTFM part...).

At risk of sounding like a plonker, I put an offer in earlier on the Beneteau. I would say I have a 1% chance of deal success based on my offer but it'd have to be what I've put forward to make it work.

I keep being drawn to it (it was my dream boat (so to speak) manufacturer and model and my heart and mind are telling me it's worth a shot. If it doesn't work out for what is practical for me (saving £££ off the price) then I shall move on knowing I gave it a go.

I did mean to follow up on that Bavaria and got side tracked by work -- I won't be letting that happen again!

 

[doug748]

Not sure how I feel about in mast......

... Only ever heard negatives about it?

To be fair there are a lot of them.

 

[dunedin]

Nothing to do with whether you need a Zimmer frame or not. The benefits are clear and available to able bodied people as well.

Worth talking to actual owners - most, if not all would never go back to slab reefing. Or if they have, like me (because of the boat I wanted) miss the simplicity and versatility and curse all the masses of string and "special" tricks needed to make slab reefing work properly.

But in mast mains are undoubtedly slower than equivalent boats with stackpack and fully battened sails - which generally have more sail area, due to much bigger roach, and always easier to optimise the sail shape with battens, cunningham control and full use of mast bend. Some like the roll out / roll away convenience and prepared to compromise performance, others want the better performance of a conventional mainsail. And at age of OP, handling conventional main on a 34-37 ft boat should not be an issue, and usually less than 2 minutes (did twice today on bigger boat).
Throwing a lot of money at an in mast furling sail - laminated sails, vertical battens etc - can narrow the performance gap but not eliminate it. Carbon boom furling main, as used in some more performance oriented cruisers, narrows the gap further - but sky high costs.
So definitely pros and cons of in mast vs stack pack, not a one option suits all.

 

[Tranona]

But in mast mains are undoubtedly slower than equivalent boats with stackpack and fully battened sails - which generally have more sail area, due to much bigger roach, and always easier to optimise the sail shape with battens, cunningham control and full use of mast bend. Some like the roll out / roll away convenience and prepared to compromise performance, others want the better performance of a conventional mainsail. And at age of OP, handling conventional main on a 34-37 ft boat should not be an issue, and usually less than 2 minutes (did twice today on bigger boat).
Throwing a lot of money at an in mast furling sail - laminated sails, vertical battens etc - can narrow the performance gap but not eliminate it. Carbon boom furling main, as used in some more performance oriented cruisers, narrows the gap further - but sky high costs.
So definitely pros and cons of in mast vs stack pack, not a one option suits all.

In reality for a family cruising boat like a Bavaria 34 the difference in "performance" in terms of passage times on coastal sailing is negligible. You are right, performance can be improved, but you do not need the expense and complication of laminates or battens. A Hybrid such as Vectran is fine and is actually not much more expensive than a slab reefing sail in basic dacron because of the significantly lower labour hours. Reefing points, batten pockets, sail slides take a lot of time and materials to fit. The one I had made for my Bavaria 33 was approx 20% (£350) more than a basic slab reef sail. For me in the 20+ years of owning in mast the 2 big benefits were ease of setting, particularly in the latter years when I sailed on my own, and the ability to infinitely control sail area to suit conditions - all with no piles of string in the cockpit.

 

[ridgy]

Nothing to do with whether you need a Zimmer frame or not. The benefits are clear and available to able bodied people as well.

Worth talking to actual owners - most, if not all would never go back to slab reefing. Or if they have, like me (because of the boat I wanted) miss the simplicity and versatility and curse all the masses of string and "special" tricks needed to make slab reefing work properly.

I firmly respect your opinions but really...unless he has a disability, no man under 70 should be seen dead with such a thing on a boat this size.

 

[ylop]

I firmly respect your opinions but really...unless he has a disability, no man under 70 should be seen dead with such a thing on a boat this size.

The first five words of your reply are somewhat undermined by the tone of the rest. Each of us goes sailing for different reasons, applying your priorities to other people’s situation is clearly nonsensical. I’ve never used in mast reefing, I don’t despise the idea but I was wary of it at purchase time because I had read than on boats of the age I was considering unless the sails had been replaced the furling may be inclined to jam. I suspect most boats with in mast furling mains are sailed by under 70s because the majority of septogenarian sailors are stuck in their ways / have devised techniques to cope / aren’t buying new boats…. And yet, they remain a popular choice on new builds.

 

[mrming]

Not a fan of in-mast myself, having used it on charter boats. However that’s down to my own prejudice. I’ve raced for 25+ years and have been a trimmer for most of that. So I like the extra 5% when cruising, stupid though that is. For those who say it’s more trouble, gets jammed etc, I would ask, why is it fitted to every charter boat? Charter companies are unlikely to repeatedly fit a system their customers can’t use. The fact that there are so many in-mast systems out there in use, suggests to me that it must be fit for purpose.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The first five words of your reply are somewhat undermined by the tone of the rest. Each of us goes sailing for different reasons, applying your priorities to other people’s situation is clearly nonsensical. I’ve never used in mast reefing, I don’t despise the idea but I was wary of it at purchase time because I had read than on boats of the age I was considering unless the sails had been replaced the furling may be inclined to jam. I suspect most boats with in mast furling mains are sailed by under 70s because the majority of septogenarian sailors are stuck in their ways / have devised techniques to cope / aren’t buying new boats…. And yet, they remain a popular choice on new builds.

That is quite noticeable at our club. The over 70s typically have a traditional looking boat, with a traditional rig. They will cite the reasons everyone passionately opposed to in mast reefing give. In reality, those that choose minimal hassle as the top priority in their sailing will at least seriously consider it. Those for whom the last 5% is the top priority will not. That seems reasonable to me.

 

[Tranona]

I firmly respect your opinions but really...unless he has a disability, no man under 70 should be seen dead with such a thing on a boat this size.

You seem to have a strange view about people, particularly the thousands of perfectly sane and rational people who are capable of making their own sexisions without your help.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

You seem to have a strange view about people, particularly the thousands of perfectly sane and rational people who are capable of making their own sexisions without your help.

To be fair, the OP has actually asked for help. But in mast reefing is a bit like anchors, strongly held opinions on both sides. At least for me it’s clear cut, nobody in their right mind would put a system on a Dragonfly. I agree it’s a bit more nuanced on any moderately staid cruising boat.

 

[johnalison]

One advantage of the stack pack is it tends to be far quicker to drop and while care is required as to the direction you are heading it does mean you can often motor sail up to mouth of river ,make a quick turn into wind and drop and return to previous course . Clearly not an idea for a narrow channel but it’s possible there as well . Whether you can reel in an inmast quickly tended not to be my impression from med charters but as said they are less demanding certainly. As for reefing on a Bav34 you can free off the traveller and to honest if going upwind for any distance unless in wide open spaces you are probably best to reef around 15kn to maintain control as they head up otherwise unless your crew is attentive particularly if your headsail is the standard full cut version. What you tend to do is get that headsail down to a better size fairly quickly anyway. I cannot really speak as to speed but in light airs they will outsail an equivalent Hallberg of similar era . Once it gets to say 20kn the Hallberg will be happy though whereas the Bav needs the reefing in well before

i sailed in company with an experienced friend for some years. I had/have an HR 34 and he had a Bav 34, but they are not really equivalent. Mine is actually around 33.5 while the Bav is about 35 and with a significantly longer waterline. This meant that he was significantly faster from a broad reach down, though we were faster upwind in any wind. You are right about the Bav's need to reef at around 15kn, while mine is very happy around 20 with full sail (No1 jib). The Bav has a shallow forefoot and is inclined to slam (early 2000s boat) and there may be a reason why I have kept my boat for 25 years and my friend changed, to a Hanse, after three.

 

[Tranona]

To be fair, the OP has actually asked for help. But in mast reefing is a bit like anchors, strongly held opinions on both sides. At least for me it’s clear cut, nobody in their right mind would put a system on a Dragonfly. I agree it’s a bit more nuanced on any moderately staid cruising boat.

But he is not buying a Dragonfly, nor any "performance" boat but a modest family cruiser where at least 50% of those on the market will have in mast furling. It is not some kind of exceptional feature for disabled (can we use that word?) sailors only. If it was the demand would be minimal and the system would actually never exist in a commercial world. So quite the opposite as it represents well over 50% and in larger (13m+ almost 100% of the cruising market.

 

[ashtead]

If I was ever to progress to something larger from 12.8 with a sail (unlikely as for our normal sailing areas it’s not that attractive )I would be tempted by something with in boom reefing but the choice is limited due to cost . That said should the opportunity arise to ever have an Oyster46 ,a southerly 46 or a Gunfleet say then I would live with the in mast which as said seems fairly standard -it’s rather like a Volvo estate a few years ago and wanting a manual version and having to get use to an auto . I don’t disagree BTW that Bav34 can be knocked around on the bow - it’s not really a size thing as sailing a charter larger Bav version to Corsica found the same. It’s not really fair to compare the bow slamming of the 34 with our current boat but it’s twice the weight etc. if I was looking for a 34 I would be looking at a Hanse though merely due to the self tacker which until you have used one is perhaps an underestimated benefit .

 

[johnalison]

If I was ever to progress to something larger from 12.8 with a sail (unlikely as for our normal sailing areas it’s not that attractive )I would be tempted by something with in boom reefing but the choice is limited due to cost . That said should the opportunity arise to ever have an Oyster46 ,a southerly 46 or a Gunfleet say then I would live with the in mast which as said seems fairly standard -it’s rather like a Volvo estate a few years ago and wanting a manual version and having to get use to an auto . I don’t disagree BTW that Bav34 can be knocked around on the bow - it’s not really a size thing as sailing a charter larger Bav version to Corsica found the same. It’s not really fair to compare the bow slamming of the 34 with our current boat but it’s twice the weight etc. if I was looking for a 34 I would be looking at a Hanse though merely due to the self tacker which until you have used one is perhaps an underestimated benefit .

My friend bought a Hanse 37 (can't remember that exact model but the last one with alloy windows) and abandoned the self-tacker after a short while because of the loss of performance. It could be useful if you are based somewhere where short tacking was an everyday necessity though.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

If you choose stack-pack then you need:

Decent, well maintained cars and track so the main halyard is easy to use ... the sail should drop under its own weight, if it doesn't, then it's a trip to the mast to pull it down by hand, and if it frees up, then it may well drop all the way down, unless you've cleated it at the reef you want.
Batons that do not stick out of the leech, if there is anything that can snag in the lazy lines, then it will, which will entail dropping the sail a bit and re-hoisting.
To be able to reach the length of the boom in order to stow the sail neatly in its bag, not to mention to be able to zip it up. Being able to reach the head of the sail easily to secure the halyard is also a good idea.
To release the sail load in order to reef - usually by heading upwind or releasing the main sheet.

If you choose roller reefing:

You need to maintain the furling gear. Abused, broken, badly adjusted or worn out furling gear is more likely to fail.
You need to keep the sail in good condition, a sail that has stretched and lost its stiffness is more likely to jam as it picks up folds when unfurling and jams them in the slot.

The boat size at which I personally could no longer cope with slab-reefing, lazy-jacks and a lazy-bag was a Sun Odyssey 409. Boom too high, couldn't reach the head of the sail, or the boom along most of it's length - folding the sail neatly into the bag and zipping it up was something only possible in a marina or at anchor on a calm day as it involved gymnastics on the coachroof. My own boat is around 14m which I sail short handed with my partner. We have roller-reefing (electric) on both sails, I would not be without it as there is no way I could douse the main and get it stowed on the boom in strong winds.

 

[ashtead]

Clearly the way round any concerns as to size of self tacker is solved by a separate larger Genoa - out of the budget but I see the 460 Hanse currently for sale at the hamble point Hanse dealers have posted a utube vid showing this. It’s what we have at 12.8m moody but in reality if you sail in Solent the self tacker is fine if heading up wind to Cowes/yarmouth .its lovely though to sail back with the tide through the Needles with just the large headsail up and no main so it does have uses and clearly if crossing channel then once rigged it can normally stay out unless it blows up of course. The great advantage is not having to usually reef down the headsail as you just switch as required between them

 

[Chiara’s slave]

But he is not buying a Dragonfly, nor any "performance" boat but a modest family cruiser where at least 50% of those on the market will have in mast furling. It is not some kind of exceptional feature for disabled (can we use that word?) sailors only. If it was the demand would be minimal and the system would actually never exist in a commercial world. So quite the opposite as it represents well over 50% and in larger (13m+ almost 100% of the cruising market.

I’ve just agreed withyou and you’re still arguing

 

[reyes]

More useful information, thanks guys. I'm going to throw another question in the mix as I think it's pertinent to this thread, which is:

How old is too old? Bear in mind a survey would always be requested by me. Even with that, would a 1980s boat be something you thought "no thanks"?

 

[chris-s]

More useful information, thanks guys. I'm going to throw another question in the mix as I think it's pertinent to this thread, which is:

How old is too old? Bear in mind a survey would always be requested by me. Even with that, would a 1980s boat be something you thought "no thanks"?

It’s not necessarily that simple. Choosing a boat is a compromise between a lot of variables, budget, availability, suitability of the boat for your intended use, condition of hull, engine, sails, rigging, electrics, plumbing etc and how much work/money are you prepared to put into it yourself or pay for.

Good luck!