First boat, what to buy?

[Tranona]

Historically, most sailing yachts were long keel boats with non-corroding led ballast in their keels. GRP came along and long keel boats with encapsulated led keels were built. Margins dropped and the long keel was replaced with an iron fin keel stuck under a beamier hull to increase room for accommodation. By the wayside fell sailing performance, sea keeping and safety. Long keelers have more drag in the water, hence need more canvass, but that doesn't mean they are not performing well in light winds. Fewer long keel boats are being built, as most boats nowadays are built on the cheap for the charter market. Long keelers still being built are Rustlers, Halberg Russeys, Nordic Folkboat to name a few.

While your chronology is sort of right your explanation is way off the mark. Long keels (which were commonly iron and not lead) were abandoned almost overnight when designers, builders and buyers realised that GRP opened up all sorts of possibilities. Little to do with cost but more to do with providing a better product. Given that probably 90% of the boats in use are not "traditional" long keelers, according to you they must be tens of thousands of boats that have poor seakeeping and are unsafe. Somebody must tell all the people who own and sail these boats all over the world.

Saying that one odd 70+ year old design is still in production proves nothing and Rustler maybe build one long keel boat a year if any. All their successful designs are modern with separate keels and in some cases spade rudders. You clearly have not seen the latest HRs which are the very opposite of what you describe - except that they are comfortable, seaworthy, safe - and fast!.

Long keel boats have their place because some people like them and probably some of them convince themselves that they are superior despite all the evidence to the contrary. If they really did have the superior qualities you claim they would still be made - it is not cost of building them that is the barrier, it is lack of demand to generate the volumes to achieve the cost reductions. Manufacturing costs of basic boats is almost directly related to weight of materials and a Nic 32 (for example) is only 500kgs heavier than my Bavaria 33 (although if you take away the ballast the boat itself is nearly a tonne lighter); sail area much the same, engine size the same etc. Material coasts will be much the same so using the same mechanised production methods no reason why you should not be able to build it for the same price. Just a problem then of finding between 5 and 10 people a WEEK to buy them. Just to put it in perspective, you would need to sell more in a year than were made of the original in the 17 years or so that it was in production.

Remember that back in the 60s and 70s most long keeled boats in the smaller sizes were cheap boats and newer designs that came on the market were often more expensive, simply because they offered more. Much the same thing happened when the European builders started offering boats in the 1990s. Same formula, more attractive boats for the price and buyers voted with their money.

Remember the OP asked just what was different about them, which I attempted to answer in a balanced way. No doubt as he goes through the boat buying/sailing process he will make up his own mind what is suitable for himself and his family.

 

[aquaplane]

I would dispute the "old long keel boats look nice" statement too. They look old and worn in most cases.

OK lots of newer boats aren't exactly eye candy, and some are ugly, but when a good design works well it has a certain beauty.

 

[jwilson]

While your chronology is sort of right your explanation is way off the mark. Long keels (which were commonly iron and not lead) were abandoned almost overnight when designers, builders and buyers realised that GRP opened up all sorts of possibilities. Little to do with cost but more to do with providing a better product. Given that probably 90% of the boats in use are not "traditional" long keelers, according to you they must be tens of thousands of boats that have poor seakeeping and are unsafe. Somebody must tell all the people who own and sail these boats all over the world.

Saying that one odd 70+ year old design is still in production proves nothing and Rustler maybe build one long keel boat a year if any. All their successful designs are modern with separate keels and in some cases spade rudders. You clearly have not seen the latest HRs which are the very opposite of what you describe - except that they are comfortable, seaworthy, safe - and fast!.

Long keel boats have their place because some people like them and probably some of them convince themselves that they are superior despite all the evidence to the contrary. If they really did have the superior qualities you claim they would still be made - it is not cost of building them that is the barrier, it is lack of demand to generate the volumes to achieve the cost reductions. Manufacturing costs of basic boats is almost directly related to weight of materials and a Nic 32 (for example) is only 500kgs heavier than my Bavaria 33 (although if you take away the ballast the boat itself is nearly a tonne lighter); sail area much the same, engine size the same etc. Material coasts will be much the same so using the same mechanised production methods no reason why you should not be able to build it for the same price. Just a problem then of finding between 5 and 10 people a WEEK to buy them. Just to put it in perspective, you would need to sell more in a year than were made of the original in the 17 years or so that it was in production.

Remember that back in the 60s and 70s most long keeled boats in the smaller sizes were cheap boats and newer designs that came on the market were often more expensive, simply because they offered more. Much the same thing happened when the European builders started offering boats in the 1990s. Same formula, more attractive boats for the price and buyers voted with their money.

Remember the OP asked just what was different about them, which I attempted to answer in a balanced way. No doubt as he goes through the boat buying/sailing process he will make up his own mind what is suitable for himself and his family.

Thanks Tranona, you've just written pretty much exactly what I wanted to say......

By the end of the 1960s Hallberg-Rassy were transitioning from long keels to fin and skeg designs, and in recent years their boats are mostly completely modern fin and spade.

For a new sailor trying to get a family interested in sailing, a narrow long-keeler that heels a lot is a dubious choice. Better a beamier boat the stays more upright - in most cases has to as it will round up if heeled too much. And the newer boat will have much better accommodation.

But the OP was not looking a a choice between a Nic 32 long-keeler and a modern Bavaria, he was looking at smallish used boats at £5-10K that have a good compromise between accommodation and performance. At that budget he may well be using cheaper drying moorings, hence a bilge keeler. I've always thought that you should decide on a mooring first, and then look at boats.

 

[Tranona]

But the OP was not looking a a choice between a Nic 32 long-keeler and a modern Bavaria, he was looking at smallish used boats at £5-10K that have a good compromise between accommodation and performance. At that budget he may well be using cheaper drying moorings, hence a bilge keeler. I've always thought that you should decide on a mooring first, and then look at boats.

Appreciate not a good comparison from the point of view of the OP but I had the figures to hand. You could substitute a Halcyon 27, Westerly Centaur/Sabre 27, £6000 and 1970 to illustrate the same point. Different ways of using 3.5 tons of materials and you can see immediately which the customer preferred. Actually £6k of 2017 £s gives you a similar choice with probably the same outcome if the family get a say!

 

[doug748]

Indeed.

 

[Daydream believer]

Fewer long keel boats are being built, as most boats nowadays are built on the cheap for the charter market. Long keelers still being built are Halberg Russeys, t to name a few.

Really !!!!!!!!

 

[STOL71]

Really !!!!!!!!

Most boats nowadays are built for fair weather sailing and their keels coming off by the dozens. I'd stick to long keel boats. :encouragement:

 

[Tranona]

Most boats nowadays are built for fair weather sailing and their keels coming off by the dozens. I'd stick to long keel boats. :encouragement:

Why do you have to post such absolute rubbish?

Good that you are happy with your boat, but don't try to justify it by saying things that are demonstrably untrue as apart from showing your ignorance, destroys your meagre case.

 

[STOL71]

Why do you have to post such absolute rubbish?

Good that you are happy with your boat, but don't try to justify it by saying things that are demonstrably untrue as apart from showing your ignorance, destroys your meagre case.

Because I know I am right and fellow forumites will spring to my defence...:nonchalance:

 

[Hacker]

No they won't

 

[steveej]

Indeed.

my response was simply about sailing with nippers as the OP stated in his opening post. My experience of sailing with nippers is that .......

A) you need your misses along to look after them while you single hand the boat; and
B) if you want to go sailing as a family more than once, you need the largest most stable vessel you can find, with plenty of storage space and comfort etc.

He may be better skipping a step and going straight to 30ft if that is what he wants to do. Otherwise, if it is just him he could do what I did and buy a 2 grand boat and treat it as a learning experience.

Im afraid to say, the sort of boat that suits a retiree who treats their boat like their shed is not going to work for a family where toddlers are involved. I've met lots of the former.

There is a guy up-thread with an Albin Ballard and a great blog that shows what is possible to do with very young children.

I know that unless he gets the misses and kids involved or at least a supportive misses he ain't going to have the time that is required to commit to a boat purchase AWB or MAB because any boat is a huge commitment in time and money.

If he cant convince the misses to do 'A' then his world his is Oyster with the smallest boat provided he has a supportive spouse so he can have the time to sail it.

 

[Tranona]

Because I know I am right and fellow forumites will spring to my defence...:nonchalance:

You will be supported by a tiny minority that are as disillusioned as you. Just because you think you are right and one or two others agree does not make you right.

How can one take anybody seriously who makes statements that are simply untrue - where are all these "dozens of keels" that have fallen off?

You really need to engage brain, do some research, understand the issues, collect evidence before opening your mouth (or writing things that are wrong). Rather destroys your credibility don't you think.

There are perfectly valid arguments as to why some people prefer long keel boats without needing to tell lies. It is just that the enthusiasm for them is shared by only a very small number of people primarily because there are vastly better boats available that more closely meet peoples' requirements. Such people have access to all the same information and make very different choices from you. Does that therefore make them wrong? Of course not, they have made the right decision for them.

 

[STOL71]

You will be supported by a tiny minority that are as disillusioned as you. Just because you think you are right and one or two others agree does not make you right.

How can one take anybody seriously who makes statements that are simply untrue - where are all these "dozens of keels" that have fallen off?

You really need to engage brain, do some research, understand the issues, collect evidence before opening your mouth (or writing things that are wrong). Rather destroys your credibility don't you think.

There are perfectly valid arguments as to why some people prefer long keel boats without needing to tell lies. It is just that the enthusiasm for them is shared by only a very small number of people primarily because there are vastly better boats available that more closely meet peoples' requirements. Such people have access to all the same information and make very different choices from you. Does that therefore make them wrong? Of course not, they have made the right decision for them.

I had dozens of PM from forumites in support confirming my theory. I bet you'll be hurrying down below at the weekend checking your keel bolts. One final question before I rest my case: why do you take yourself so seriously?

 

[Daydream believer]

Most boats nowadays are built for fair weather sailing and their keels coming off by the dozens. I'd stick to long keel boats. :encouragement:

You are entitled to your opinion but please get your facts right first
You do no good by miss information & expanding on unfounded rumour

 

[STOL71]

It does happened, this shall be proof of my theory...

 

[Mister E]

I feel sorry for Peter as this thread has now got away into the my boat is better than your boat.

Getting a young child on the boat is the easy bit, it is normally the mother that is not sure. That is where a Centaur or a Pageant is not that bad a start.
Young children like to play on the beach, rock pools and other shallow water stuff, a boat that can dry out means that you can go into the small harbours and even some beaches to play Pirates or Viking games.
If the little one is happy and wants to go to the boat then Mother is more likely to go with them.
At that age play is more important that the sailing qualities of the boat.

Forget any boat that you can not stand up in in the cabin, any boat that normally was water sloshing around the cockpit floor.
If the Pageant is the right price it could work out cheaper to purchase that rather than do a lot of courses and just pull ropes for others. The biggest waste of time for Peter would to be on a boat as movable ballast as he will only learn how to get wet.

All the above is my opinion and is not based on any scientific research or years spent sailing every different boat I can find.

 

[MagicalArmchair]

Cripes, lets keep it civil and concentrate on the Ops questions gentlefolk :sleeping:. I'm sure there is truth to both of what you say, no point arguing from intractable positions. You both rock, its great you are both trying to help the Op.

I agree with the above from steveej! The wife has to be on board, adventurous, and little bit nuts. If Liz hadn't encouraged me, I'd have run a mile when Thomas came along. Check out the article I did for Yachting Monthly (yup, the enemy) when we first had Thomas, it has a bit in it that she wrote about her perspective. Might help convince the other half how much sailing with kids rocks:

http://www.albinballad.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/ThomasArticle.pdf

edit: I wouldn't get anything smaller than 30 foot with kiddies, although, in Burnham a few years ago (I think I mention it in the article above) we bumped into a couple on a very nice older (probably had keel bolts you know!!) 40 footer, and they said they had their three kids on a 22 footer so its certainly doable!

 

[doug748]

Most boats nowadays are built for fair weather sailing and their keels coming off by the dozens. I'd stick to long keel boats. :encouragement:

Now, I think you are being a little tinker just to stir things up.

It's true that the ISAF working party identified over 70 cases of lost keels but some of these were of only historical interest and some not on production boats.

It may be that no more than 4 or 5 keels are lost annually, though I have no idea how any true data could be collected. Certainly there is concern enough to keep interest alive.

One thing we do know is that a lot of repair seems to go on. but set against this there are an awful lot of boats around that have not suffered.

PS
I nearly forgot the point of the post.... The Centaur is a fine boat for a first foray into ownership, you can probably get a very usable one for 5 grand - don't spend any cash on it if you can help it. You may want to invest in something less stately in a few years time - OTOH you may keep it for twenty years. As someone has said, chasing Dylan Winter's posts will unearth a lot of info.
Check the keels carefully at the root!

 

[mrming]

Ironically, the Westerlys beloved of many of our "that's not a proper boat" brigade on here have a history of major keel problems on more than one model.

 

[ibbo]

I have found that the most important thing is a good dinghy so you can get to the beach safely, and without getting the very small children wet, and at the same time making the mother feel secure.