JumbleDuck
Well-known member
Are you using racist language as deliberate provocation or out of ignorance?
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Ethnic minorities and sailing.
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Kelpie
Well-known member
Well this thread has been an eye opener.
For anybody who is wondering 'am I a racist?' (and frankly that should be everyone, because few people hold these beliefs deliberately) ask yourself this:
When faced with a situation involving people of different ethnicities, is your go-to reaction to pigeon-hole people along genetic lines? i.e. do you reach for generalisations based around inherited characteristics, rather than looking at wider range of factors?
Generalisations are, generally, wrong, whether you are talking about gender, age, economic status, or 'race'. You can assert broad trends (women are shorter than men. rich people are better educated than poor people) but it is often deeply unhelpful to do so without considering a much wider range of issues.
Unfortunately when someone's appearance is physically quite distinctive, it can be an automatic reaction to assume that this is their defining characteristic and use it to explain everything else about them.
For anybody who is wondering 'am I a racist?' (and frankly that should be everyone, because few people hold these beliefs deliberately) ask yourself this:
When faced with a situation involving people of different ethnicities, is your go-to reaction to pigeon-hole people along genetic lines? i.e. do you reach for generalisations based around inherited characteristics, rather than looking at wider range of factors?
Generalisations are, generally, wrong, whether you are talking about gender, age, economic status, or 'race'. You can assert broad trends (women are shorter than men. rich people are better educated than poor people) but it is often deeply unhelpful to do so without considering a much wider range of issues.
Unfortunately when someone's appearance is physically quite distinctive, it can be an automatic reaction to assume that this is their defining characteristic and use it to explain everything else about them.
pvb
Well-known member
And aren't those groups quite prevalent in the UK? So my comment about "many black and asian people" is justified.
ryanroberts
Well-known member
Interesting, Taiwan seemed pretty short of charter opportunities last time I checked.
jordanbasset
Well-known member
But looking at the percentage of white British in this country there will be many more of them that can't swim. If I had to make a guess it will be those that have limited access to swimming pools, foreign holidays with warm seas etc that have larger number who can't swim, regardless of their colour
pvb
Well-known member
RupertW
Well-known member
That seems to show that swimming is equally popular amongst all ethnic groups as it seems to match their percentages of population.
mjcoon
Well-known member
I've been sailing since the mid-1970s and never been able to swim... Swimming "lessons" at school were pretty much a waste of time or opportunity to muck about. (And experiment with combining to send waves crashing up the pool...)
pvb
Well-known member
No it doesn't. Around 3.3% of the UK population are black, and 7.5% are Asian.
oldmanofthehills
Well-known member
I understand that afro americans do not generally get taught to swim so they have a relatively higher rate of drowning than their white neighbours. Im pretty sure plenty of Caribbeans can swim however, and their are plenty of asians in coastal regions who swim.
Perhaps its as much to do with coastal non coastal. All of the UK is near water and much of western europe. We go to the beach and paddle and one day look up and see boats and want one - well i did.
However looking at proclivities in my 3 various climbing clubs I only ever met one black climber and his dad was Norwegian. Quite a few chinese or half chinese, and a few indians. None of the clubs had any issues with people of other ethnicities and one actively though unsucessfully tried to get more varied members.
And so it is with sailing
Perhaps its as much to do with coastal non coastal. All of the UK is near water and much of western europe. We go to the beach and paddle and one day look up and see boats and want one - well i did.
However looking at proclivities in my 3 various climbing clubs I only ever met one black climber and his dad was Norwegian. Quite a few chinese or half chinese, and a few indians. None of the clubs had any issues with people of other ethnicities and one actively though unsucessfully tried to get more varied members.
And so it is with sailing
jordanbasset
Well-known member
My point was as around 85% of kids in this country are white there will be many more white kids that can't swim than black and asian and maybe there are other factors at play, including socio-economic
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Beelzebub
Well-known member
I had a local Caribbean guy crewing for me in the eighties. He helped me sail a 40' trimaran from Antigua up to Nassau. He was fairly young but he was a natural sailor. However, like many from his island, Dominica, he couldn't swim a stroke.
Iliade
Well-known member
It was normal for British sailors to aver learning to swim lest they took too long to drown if they fell in.
If I lived in Oz or SA I would be a whole lot less inclined to go swimming than I am here. Most places where the populace are represented as BAME have all manner of things in the water which will sting or eat you given half a chance. I can see that as a perfectly rational reason for a cultural aversion to going in the water. But that doesn't explain the millions of BAME people making their living on the seas, high ones or more inland.
I do know a South Asian ship's captain and I understand that a very large proportion of the world's merchant marine are South Asian.
Maybe it is that the people who can afford to come to the UK are not fisherfolk and the ships' masters choose to retire somewhere more appropriate for recreational sailing...
If I lived in Oz or SA I would be a whole lot less inclined to go swimming than I am here. Most places where the populace are represented as BAME have all manner of things in the water which will sting or eat you given half a chance. I can see that as a perfectly rational reason for a cultural aversion to going in the water. But that doesn't explain the millions of BAME people making their living on the seas, high ones or more inland.
I do know a South Asian ship's captain and I understand that a very large proportion of the world's merchant marine are South Asian.
Maybe it is that the people who can afford to come to the UK are not fisherfolk and the ships' masters choose to retire somewhere more appropriate for recreational sailing...
Garold
Well-known member
I’m not sure about the BAME thing but I have some insight into Indians (which may generalize to other Asian).
My wife is Indian (& I’m white) and we’ve been married nearly 36 years. We both did our shore based yacht masters in our first year of marriage. On and off, over the years, we’ve sailed something like 17k miles in European waters (mainly coastal UK and Med) and we’ve owned 7 boats.
And in all that time, we’ve never met another Indian person sailing: so there‘s not many Indians out there sailing in Europe - maybe close to none.
My wife isn’t a confident or particularly competent swimmer which makes her about average for her family. However, I don’t think that this is the reason that we don’t see any other Indians out sailing. The rest of my wife’s family see sailing as a very dangerous activity and can’t understand why anyone would want to participate in such an expensive, uncomfortable and risky activity When for the same money we could enjoy luxury holidays anywhere. It just wouldn’t cross their mind.
This is different with younger Indians, but they are like most other young people and see sailing as an activity rather than a lifestyle. They are quite satisfied with a wild week of flotilla sailing with their mates in places that us old farts avoid - so we never come across them. (Also in the modern world, these kids all hang out together so it’s unlikely to be a boat full of Indians).
Where we live about 50% of every cricket team is made up of Asians because that’s a popular sport/pastime for Asians. The rugby teams on the other hand are mainly white - can’t blame the Asians for trying to avoid cauliflower ear. I am familiar with this stuff because one of our sons plays both very keenly. I don’t want to be too controversial but I think that the under representation of any ethnic groups in sailing (or most other sports and pastimes) has little to do with the more serious Educational, financial and vocational prejudice that some ethnic groups are burdened with throughout their lives.
And finally, for what it’s worth, I think that grouping all the non-whites under the BAME banner is not helpful. This is not a homogenous group in almost any respect.
My wife is Indian (& I’m white) and we’ve been married nearly 36 years. We both did our shore based yacht masters in our first year of marriage. On and off, over the years, we’ve sailed something like 17k miles in European waters (mainly coastal UK and Med) and we’ve owned 7 boats.
And in all that time, we’ve never met another Indian person sailing: so there‘s not many Indians out there sailing in Europe - maybe close to none.
My wife isn’t a confident or particularly competent swimmer which makes her about average for her family. However, I don’t think that this is the reason that we don’t see any other Indians out sailing. The rest of my wife’s family see sailing as a very dangerous activity and can’t understand why anyone would want to participate in such an expensive, uncomfortable and risky activity When for the same money we could enjoy luxury holidays anywhere. It just wouldn’t cross their mind.
This is different with younger Indians, but they are like most other young people and see sailing as an activity rather than a lifestyle. They are quite satisfied with a wild week of flotilla sailing with their mates in places that us old farts avoid - so we never come across them. (Also in the modern world, these kids all hang out together so it’s unlikely to be a boat full of Indians).
Where we live about 50% of every cricket team is made up of Asians because that’s a popular sport/pastime for Asians. The rugby teams on the other hand are mainly white - can’t blame the Asians for trying to avoid cauliflower ear. I am familiar with this stuff because one of our sons plays both very keenly. I don’t want to be too controversial but I think that the under representation of any ethnic groups in sailing (or most other sports and pastimes) has little to do with the more serious Educational, financial and vocational prejudice that some ethnic groups are burdened with throughout their lives.
And finally, for what it’s worth, I think that grouping all the non-whites under the BAME banner is not helpful. This is not a homogenous group in almost any respect.
V1701
Well-known member
Sailing/boating is perceived by most to be the preserve of the rich, they wouldn't have a clue about the clubs run on a self-help basis or the old guys working on their old boats in backwater boatyards. If they see anything at all it's millionaire's mega yachts, the Volvo RTW or the olympics. And they're pretty much, as already said, exclusively white. As a white guy I can only imagine how it might feel if I was a black guy and in the unlikely event that it did occur to me that I might like to try sailing knowing that, in all likelihood, I would be the only black face around. I'm from a working class background, grew up in the Midlands and got into sailing by accident. I can afford it because I live on my boat and can do the repairs and maintenance myself. If you asked me whether I'd like to go and join all the posh shouty blokes in a spot of racing I'd decline thank you very much. But I'm happy as Larry nattering all afternoon to the old guys in the boatyards...
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JumbleDuck
Well-known member
How about your claim that "The majority of them seem not to be able to swim"
Poignard
Well-known member
Who crewed on dhows, feluccas, junks, etc? Did the owners of such vessels recruit European crews?
Birdseye
Well-known member
Member of our club was a tory councillor and mayor. Nice guy but argumentative and quite right wing. His son in law was as black as they come. We were at the club one day when he and his son in law were there. He was trying to persuade the S-I-L to go sailing with him. The reply was " no thanks - I know what you white guys do when you get us black guys on a boat"!
V1701
Well-known member
It is interesting this because to me using the phrase "as black as they come" is without doubt derogatory. It really is just a short hop to "as black as the ace of spades"...
atol
Well-known member
probably not such a bad thing you dont see many BAME people sailing,somebody would call borderforce evertime they docked if there was a boat load full.
happened to me on a delivery,we stopped in grimsby ,the new owner was onboard who was ghanaian ,he wanted us to take the fishing boat to ghana,within 15 minutes of tying up borderforce had turned up
happened to me on a delivery,we stopped in grimsby ,the new owner was onboard who was ghanaian ,he wanted us to take the fishing boat to ghana,within 15 minutes of tying up borderforce had turned up
