DIY gas work = DIE gas work

[sailorman]

Very sad, but absolutely nothing to do with the safety of the gas installation, is it?

They failed to understand the need for ventilation with heaters that burn anything. I wouldn't use a flame based heater in any enclosed space without good ventilation & NEVER if planning to sleep. There was a family recently killed in a tent 'cos they took remains of the disposable Barbie inside for warmth. Plenty of info about this risk in camp sites, chandlers, HM Offices & marinas.

The latter incident prompted many here to install a CO2 monitor

 

[GrumpyOldGit]

If I have made people think long and hard about the safety of LPG on boats then that is a good thing. I am qualified and know all of the risks, they are many and do merit serious consideration.

I don't know why people keep referring to gas fitting as being rocket science, it clearly isn't. There is, however, more to it than just chucking a few pipes in the boat and because it works and hasn't been a problem assuming that it will be fine and then giving others advice based on your own limited knowledge (not aimed at you, more of a generalisation about the LPG advice on these forums). Then when someone comes along who actually knows the subject, they are seen as being part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
The reason it is so difficult to give advice is because the whole installation needs to be looked at, pipe sizing, ventilation, pipe routing, off take rates, all sorts of things that nobody on here will have any idea about unless they have done the LPG training. Just because someone has fitted a gas cooker on their own boat they instantly become an expert on LPG, and then give advice (often incorrect) to others and so it goes on.

As a fully qualified, professional plumber, I have seen more than enough, " Qualified and Compliant" Lpg gas fitters making horrendous and life threatening cockups .
Most reasonably intelligent boat owners would be unlikely to fool around with a known killer such as LPG without taking great care to ensure their own and their families safety.
Anyone who is so foolish as to do so without a great deal of thought is, in my opinion, simply ensuring that Natural Selection will continue as it has done for millennia.
Boring thread now...

 

[JumbleDuck]

Very sad, but absolutely nothing to do with the safety of the gas installation, is it?

True. All I meant was that barring big bangs, things which burn intermittently are one hell of a lot safer than things which burn for extended periods.

 

[lw395]

The latter incident prompted many here to install a CO2 monitor

And possibly one or two of us to fit carbon monoxide monitors?

 

[sailorman]

And possibly one or two of us to fit carbon monoxide monitors?

Ah see footer

 

[VicS]

And possibly one or two of us to fit carbon monoxide monitors?

and hopefully in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations not simply as suggested by our "qualified" OP in #1

Get a battery powered CO alarm and fit it near your appliance

 

[nigelmercier]

I'm guessing that I could have installed my new gas pipe with my eyes closed, and it would still have been safer than the one that came out:

 

[philwebb]

Sorry David Bagshaw, but you are talking bo***cks about regulations about condensing boiler drains. If they are put in according to the manufacturers
recommendations ie 32mm (inch and a quarter) outside the house or well lagged, they do not freeze up. As for Gas Regs and Water Regs they
are laws passed by MPs. As for "so called professionals", as a qualified plumber and heating engineer I reckon I am at least as professional as you
are, whatever you job is.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

I'm guessing that I could have installed my new gas pipe with my eyes closed, and it would still have been safer than the one that came out:]

Oh, I don't know. Plenty of life left in that. Wrap a bit of duck tape round it and it'll be good for another 5 or 6 years.

 

[onesea]

Oh, I don't know. Plenty of life left in that. Wrap a bit of duck tape round it and it'll be good for another 5 or 6 years.

I would suggest insulating tape, its more gas tight and I find duck tape brakes down to quick.

Self amalgamating tape is also handy for jobs like this.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

I would suggest insulating tape, its more gas tight and I find duck tape brakes down to quick.

Self amalgamating tape is also handy for jobs like this.

Yes, I stand corrected and, now that you mention it, I do recall that the BSS makes that very point.
Thank you for pointing it out.

 

[rotrax]

I keep reading threads on these forums where people are asking for advice on fitting gas appliances, pipework, hoses etc and I just don't get it. The advice offered is often inaccurate, dangerous or just plain wrong (in whatever order you like).

Would you fit or give advice on DIY domestic gas work? I should hope not as it would be illegal, so why do so many people who are not qualified to give advice on LPG gas in BOATS suddenly become experts on a forum?

LPG on boats is more dangerous than any other work I do and that is reflected in an almost doubling of my public liability insurance premiums. I do not want any work, I live in the middle of England far from yachts.

Please do not work on LPG if you are not qualified to do so. Get a battery powered CO alarm and fit it near your appliance, get a flammable gas detector and fit it as low as you can.

The consequences of getting it wrong with a DIY gas fit on a boat CAN BE FATAL.

I am just a humble mechanic with 50 years of fixing stuff-if it goes up and down, round and round and its broke I recon I can fix it.


If I cant, I will know a man who can.

During my career I have maintained, for my own and others, Caravans, Boats, Motorhomes and Vans fitted out as racing transporters, all kitted out with gas cookers and sometimes heaters.

Gas is dangerous, granted. When mixed with the right amount of oxygen, it burns very fast-it is explosive.

It is heavier than air and collects in voids and bilges.

It can-and does-kill.

Despite all this it is not rocket science.

Many of the connections go back to Victorian times-after all, that is when gas became available to the masses.

I shall continue to maintain and repair my own systems.

I shall continue to be vigilant, carefull, accurate, and subsequently test everything I do.

Two years ago I overhauled the gas locker on our boat.

I fitted a bubble leak tester, a new electric gas solenoid, new flexible pipe and another tap in case the remote one fails.

The flexible pipe was fitted using a profesional crimping kit used for very high pressure oil lines. The whole system was tested using both the bubble leak tester and soapy water at every joint.

If you can point out to me what you would have done-apart from using a water gauge or manometer-I would be delighted to know.

I have had a boat moored on the Upper Thames explode when I was walking my dogs in the early eighties-I was within 40 feet of it when the rotten wooden top lifted off and threw the owner into the water. Luckily he was OK-just singed eyebrows.

I, and I suspect most prudent boat owners who maintain their own craft, are aware of the pitfalls and dangers and so reduce them to a level where systems are safe.

I have seen boats where the gas systems were-indeed possibly still are-potential death traps.

But not on my boat.

Your post may be good and prudent advice to many do it yourselfers-but to me-and I suspect others with similar experience to mine-it was a trifle patronising.

Apart from that, I am sure your thought was to prevent potential accidents, which is a good thing to do.

 

[Mel]

If I have made people think long and hard about the safety of LPG on boats then that is a good thing. I am qualified and know all of the risks, they are many and do merit serious consideration.

I don't know why people keep referring to gas fitting as being rocket science, it clearly isn't. There is, however, more to it than just chucking a few pipes in the boat and because it works and hasn't been a problem assuming that it will be fine and then giving others advice based on your own limited knowledge (not aimed at you, more of a generalisation about the LPG advice on these forums). Then when someone comes along who actually knows the subject, they are seen as being part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
The reason it is so difficult to give advice is because the whole installation needs to be looked at, pipe sizing, ventilation, pipe routing, off take rates, all sorts of things that nobody on here will have any idea about unless they have done the LPG training. Just because someone has fitted a gas cooker on their own boat they instantly become an expert on LPG, and then give advice (often incorrect) to others and so it goes on.

You are sooo wrong !!!

Plenty of professionally qualified engineers without LPG training are very competent at calculating the pressure loss through pipes for gases including domestic and for instance steam at thousands of psi and temperatures above 500C --

There is no comparable set of gas fitting training (CORGI or GAS SAFE) for all the other gases in industry and it is done by competent staff. I have dealt with hydrogen and high quality steam systems - I see your limited experience at the LPG and Domestic level as simply that - LIMITED and at the lower level of potential danger compared to many situations in Industry.

WHY on earth do you believe that professionals do not participate in this forum ?

 

[Boathook]

For compliant read compliant with best practice. Why would you want your installation to be anything but?

I am not looking for work, I only work around Hinckley. There are no yachts round here, but lots of narrowboats.

Do you have any gas qualifications?

British Gas did sensible training when I started many years ago and bits of paper were not required then! I have seen to many with bits of paper as others have mentioned and I would not trust them.

 

[david_bagshaw]

Sorry David Bagshaw, but you are talking bo***cks about regulations about condensing boiler drains. If they are put in according to the manufacturers
recommendations ie 32mm (inch and a quarter) outside the house or well lagged, they do not freeze up. As for Gas Regs and Water Regs they
are laws passed by MPs. As for "so called professionals", as a qualified plumber and heating engineer I reckon I am at least as professional as you
are, whatever you job is.

That might be now, but what were the regs when condensing boilers first came out, and if so ideal, why did so many fail in the cold the other year, they cant all have been installed by diyers.

As for laws passed by MPs, well you obviously have a better view of their competence than many.

 

[pcatterall]

"recommendations ie 32mm (inch and a quarter) outside the house or well lagged, they do not freeze up."

I would challenge that 'expert' view. several of my neighbours had problems in that very cold spell and their boilers were 'professionally fitted' It was the very small trickle of water coming down the pipes that froze and the ice built up to the point where it blocked the pipe.

Also 3 boilers have been 'condemned' by 'heating engineers in my properties over the last year '' New boiler required Guv.'' one needed an exchange ECU £40, another a micro switch £5 and the third a new pressure vessel £40, did the work myself ( but no gas element to the jobs)

 

[ghostlymoron]

I'm with you on this PC. Our professionally fitted condensing boiler continually froze in extreme weather. After about 6 callouts to the installer, I suggested they re route it internally into the sink drain. Since this was done we've had no further problems.

 

[LittleShip]

"recommendations ie 32mm (inch and a quarter) outside the house or well lagged, they do not freeze up."

I would challenge that 'expert' view. several of my neighbours had problems in that very cold spell and their boilers were 'professionally fitted' It was the very small trickle of water coming down the pipes that froze

Older condensing boilers would allow a small trickle of water from condensate to continually drain away, this would inevitably in very cold weather freeze and block the drain shutting off the boiler. The later models had a syphon trap which would pass a larger amount of water in one go. That and the increase of the condensate waste to a larger side stopped the freezing effect that caused so many problems.

IMHO, most "plumbers" have no idea about fault diagnoses and that's the big problem with the industry, calling in somebody that has been trained (and I use the phrase loosely) in pipe bending won't mean he can diagnose electrical and or electronic problems on a boiler.

Modern day boilers are more akin to modern day cars and should be treated with the same regard. Modern day boilers will monitor air flow, flame rectification, reduce gas rates ect ect, something a normal pipe strangler is not trained to deal with. If you have problems with a modern boiler you shouldn't be asking a plumber to repair it, after all would you take you high end motor to Joe the paint sprayer to diagnose and repair an electrical fault your car.

 

[sailorman]

"recommendations ie 32mm (inch and a quarter) outside the house or well lagged, they do not freeze up."

I would challenge that 'expert' view. several of my neighbours had problems in that very cold spell and their boilers were 'professionally fitted' It was the very small trickle of water coming down the pipes that froze and the ice built up to the point where it blocked the pipe.

Also 3 boilers have been 'condemned' by 'heating engineers in my properties over the last year '' New boiler required Guv.'' one needed an exchange ECU £40, another a micro switch £5 and the third a new pressure vessel £40, did the work myself ( but no gas element to the jobs)

The rule relating to condense pipes changed a few yrs ago due to possible freezing of the smaller dia pipes

 

[NorthUp]

Does anyone here employ a pro to change gas cylinders over aboard their boat? Think of the dangers- high pressure (not!) gas, o-rings to inspect, some of us even have a left hand thread to confuse us! Will our boats insurance still be valid??