diesel fuel changes to red diesel

[iains123]

I have an old lister diesel and i am due to set off for france in 12 months. I am confused re: will my engine run only on red diesel as currently formulated and not on low sulphur diesel as i do not have a catalytic converter,if this is the case what sort of diesel is commonly avaible for marine use in france and with red diesel due to become low sulphur in a couple of years time will it be possible to use a fuel additive .

 

[snowleopard]

fear not...

(a) the red in british diesel is only a dye to show tax hasn't been paid and to detect people using it in road vehicles.
(b) catalytic converters are used only on petrol engines.
(c) low sulphur diesel reduces polution and the acidity in the oil, it does not affect performance and can be used in any diesel engine of any age.
continental diesel is sold duty-paid and may be any colour, usually yellow or green.
french authorities take a dim view of you importing more red diesel than you need for 'normal' purposes, i had a few raised eyebrows at my row of 10 jerry cans last time i was in boulogne.

 

[Guest]

As an owner of Petro-Chems lab ..... it will make little difference to you whether it is red or not. Stop worrying and you'll find that marine diesel available in most countries is actually NOT ULSD ... it is generally 0.2% Su.

HAPPY NEW YEAR

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[Guest]

Actually ....

There are many countries that have subsidised diesel .... but it is purely for Agricultural use etc. UK is strange that yachts are included in the 'tax-exempt' bracket on it ....

We regularly test for Red dye with yellow marker for Polish and other markets - added to bog-standard 0.2% Su. Diesel.

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[colvic]

Our 22 year old BMC diesel has run very well on "ordinary" diesel in France and Spain for the last three years.

Went through France in the company of a Belgian couple who do the trip to Carcason from Paris every year and they always fill up with RED diesel supplied at one of the small towns. Yes it's not allowed, but the delivery was supervised by the town Mayor and a receipt given.


Phil

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: Actually ....

Nigel - Ithought that the sulphur acted as a lubricant in the pump and injectors. ie the low sulphur deisel would bugger my Perkins 4236?????

 

[stubate]

sulphur

sulphur is found in diesel fuel because it costs money to refine out, sweet crude doesnt contain sulphur (hydrogen sulphide) and goes for a higher price on the market, the other stuff goes cheaper as the content rises, but costs money to get rid of.
so sulphur is there as a by product of cost effectiveness. sulphur becomes sulphur dioxide as it burns and becomes sulphuric acid combined with water.
you dont want it in your exhaust or engine,
at one time you used to have to put up with it in diesel, now you have a choice, it does come with a slight loss of power, very slight, you wont notice, cause when it is burnt it does produce some power.
stu

 

[Guest]

Re: sulphur

Oh dear here we go again ........

Sulphur does actually lubricate the injector pump etc. a small amount and reduction of sulphur and other compounds has led to another quality issue ..... LUBRICITY.

It is the case that ULSD normally has 2 additives put in .....

a) Lubricity to reduce the 'dryness' of the diesel and increase its lubrication quality.
b) If its to be used in winter and to EN590 spec .... CFPP additive to stop it clogging the fuel filters at low temp.

I am sure that some bright spark here will start on about Cloud Pts. etc. - but that really is not an issue and difficult to alter anyway.

Hydrogen Sulphide is a compound of Sulphur and NOT the same ...... A diesel can be high on sulphur and NIL on H2S ... but of course again we are going off track.

Sulphuric acid often forms in the base of an engine as a result of dissolved burnt residues mixing with any water / condensation etc.
Suplhur dioxide is normally exhausted and little hangs around.

Finally ALL crudes have sulphur to some small or large amount dependent on source. It gives Crude its characteristic aroma. High H2S gives it the rotten eggs smell............

It is said by some manufacturers that modern low sulphur diesels are not best for their older engins ..... but I believe that it is NOT the same levels of unsuitability as Unleaded and Leaded gasoline leads to ...... So most engines will run OK on either diesel and I think it would be hard for the average punter to actually tell the difference !!!!

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: sulphur

Thanks Nigel -

 

[LadyInBed]

Re: red diesel in France

I have filled up with Red on the Rhone.
BP barge just down from Lyon at pk23
I was told about it by a Dutchman, obviously in the know.

 

[colvic]

Re: red diesel in France

We rushed down the Rhone si intend to take our time going upstream, but I don't think we'll have much option with the current flowing as it does. Will look out for that barge.

Cheers

Phil

 

[brianhumber]

Re: sulphur

As an ex oilman, I agree with both stu and nigel.
To go back to the original question, I do not think you will come to much harm using either 'red' or LS, my 15 year old 1.6 ford XLD has been on a mix of both for years depending on where Ronhilda is being cruised, the last time the injectors were out was 6 years ago.

(lets not restart the lub oil polish/glaze threads again although I expect things have moved on techincally a bit in the labs since the days of ASTM D539A etal)

 

[Guest]

Post deleted by danfoley

 

[lauradee]

oh dear here we go again

a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but what is even more silly is the attitude, "oh dear here we go again"
see my previous post about sulphur, it most certainly is not added, is not necessary, and is a natural part of the fuel that costs money to get rid of and is not liked by greens and forests (so i am told)
s

 

[Guest]

Re: oh dear here we go again

The reason for the 'oh dear ......'

This topic and its half-statements comes up again and again and again ..... I try to stay out of it, but then after a while I have to answer !!!! And a little knowledge ????? I would yhink that having spent some years in the Quantity and Quality business of Petrochemicals, the fact that I OWN two Petrochemical Labs .... etc. etc. in fact I was operating additive equipment putting the additives into diesels and fuel oils etc. etc.

So I think I may just be a little qualified to touch on this subject ?????

17yrs Ships Officer on Tankers etc.
5 yrs Petrochems Surveyor Saudi Arabia
10 yrs Petrochems Manager and owner of Petrochems Inspection in Baltics .....

Should I go on with a CV ??????

Now back to Sulphur ....

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[Guest]

Additives and Sulphur !!!

Sulphur is most certainly NOT added to diesel later !! The reference to lubricity is to illustrate the fact that ULSD is 'dry' and increases pump and bore wear.

It is significant the difference when a sample is placed on the recip rig to test. Putting it simply :

a small steel ball is placed in a reciprocating rig and rubbed back and forth on a plate that has been dipped in the diesel. The ball has been measured via extremely accurate micro-instrument and then is measured after a set time of rub. The difference of measurement is the Factor of Lubricity of the diesel.

If you wish also to pay out about 50,000 quid for the full kit - then I will argue again.

Sulphur naturally occurs in vurtually all crudes.Sulphur is apparent in all petroleums, except where considerable effort and expense has been made to wash it out. Sulphur is not added back to any petroleum that I know of. Sulphur cannot be removed by addition of 'improvers' etc. but H2S can ...... it produces a residue that settles out.

Anyway enough ..... especially if I'm to be called to rights !!!!

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: oh dear here we go again

This is not quite fair - Nigel has always provided good information in the sprit of this BB. We need people like him to answer the more technical questions.

 

[stubate]

thank you for agreeing with me !!

thats what i said and you said here we go again !!
i dont understand why the steel ball is brought into the equation
stu

 

[stubate]

we seem to have gone off the subject

sorry iains123
red diesel is the same as ordinary diesel (red has a dye added to say that road vehicule tax has not been paid on it, that is the only difference)
lo sulphur diesel is diesel that is refined more or made from lo sulphur crude so that it has less sulphur in it, sulphur when burnt produces sulphur dioxide which when mixed with water produces sulphuric acid which allegedley kills off forests etc etc, that is why governments who are concerned about the enviroment are pushing for the use of lo sulpher fuel
it doesnt pack as much bang for your buck (its hardly noticeable)
it wont harm your injectors or pump,
the grenuoilleurs are trying to abolish red diesel because it is an anomaly in the system and frown upon you taking large amounts to their country.
its effect on balls and ive got a big test rig is irrelevent to this simple answer to a simple question !!
all i wanted to do was answer your question simply
stu

 

[stubate]

ooh arent i horrible

i thought S was the chemical symbol for sulphur ? not Su
stu