Criminals R Us - boaty

[rickp]

Re: Emotive subject...

Ah, I see, its the Daily Mail 'think of the children'-style argument. I don't have a problem with an ID card. I have a real problem with this particular implementation, which if you read the draft bill is less about the card and more about the massive database system being used on the backend to collate over 50 pieces of information about you.

As you say, other countries have ID cards and ID numbers. The widespread use of the SSN number in the US has made identify theft extremely easy over there. No other european country has such a comprehensive or invasive card system. The Australian and New Zealand public have rejected similar proposals outright.

Lets not forget also that on the 3rd of July, in response to a question by Chris Mullin MP, David Blunkett said "I accept that it is important we do not pretend that an entitlement card would be an overwhelming factor in combating international terrorism". Six minutes later, in answer to a question from Sir Teddy Taylor MP, he said he would not rule out the possibility of "their substantial contribution to countering terrorism". So which is it? Seeing as the going rate to buy off a member of the CIA was a few hundred thousand, if your terrorists are so well funded, getting an ID card issued is not going to be a problem. No-one seems to want to think about the human failings.

I wholly support the <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.no2id.net>NO2ID campaign</A> because I'm not naïve enough to believe its going to be the panacea that the Govt claim.

Rick

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by rickp on 03/12/2004 10:08 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[abraxus]

Re: Emotive subject...

Bambola

The problem is that id cards wont hinder criminals or terrorsists one bit. Currently it is illegal to carry and bombs and guns in this country and yet it doesn't seem to stop people. All an id card will do is tell the authorities that someone is who they said they were. If they gave a false identity in the first place then it's meaningless. That's assuming they bother to carry one. Secondly it will serve yet again to make every law abiding citizen a potential criminal if they don't carry one.

It really does amaze me how people get carried away with the most ridiculous things just because they're proposed by "they're side" and don't have the imagination to think for themselves.

It amuses me how all the lefties are now rallying round Blunkett saying leave him alone, he hasn't done much wrong. Apart from the fact that he's most fascist Home Sec we've had in long time, if he was a Tory you'd be calling for his blood. Similarly if the Tories tried to introduce id cards then there'd be screams of civil liberties and a police state.

I'm convinced the powers that be all have the same agenda and just switch parties to get the most extreme ones through. Let face it the Tories would never have been allowed to do what Labour did to the students, introduce id cards, and rip away civil liberties in the way that's now being proposed by that expenses fiddler Blunkett.

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[fireball]

Re: Emotive subject...

And did I hear right - us ordinary folk (and I use the term loosley!) will have to pay for an ID card that we don't want ... ?!

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[snowleopard]

an interesting parallel...

almost everyone deplored saddam because of his brutal repression of his own people but the only excuse that could be used for getting rid of him was the peripheral issue of WMD.

blunkett is deplored because of his lack of sexual morals but he can only be removed for the peripheral issue of a visa.





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[rickp]

Re: Emotive subject...

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.no2id.net/content/first_reading_briefing.html#13>Voluntary</A> (unless you want to work, use the banking of health systems, travel or receive benefits).

Rick

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[fireball]

Re: Emotive subject...

Complusory then! Great .... and I bet we have to pay to have them updated each time we move, buy a new car, breath, break wind .... At £18 ( I think this is right) a shot everyone is going to just rush out and get one. .... hmm will they do a BOGOFF offer?

Is this going to be another one of them Poll tax ones where we all refuse to pay?

Would it be different under Tories or Lib Dems ... I doubt it - 6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of the other ....


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[raven]

Re: Emotive subject...

...so within the Ten Commandments it is stated "Thou shall not steal from Banks (but it's okay to nick a few quid from thy employer / Ye Great British taxpayer)

That's weird, I always thought it was simply "Though shall not steal." and that little round spot thingy was a FULL STOP!



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[StugeronSteve]

Re: Emotive subject...

".... hmm will they do a BOGOFF offer?" What a wonderful concept.

For a limited period only TWO IDENTITIES FOR THE PRICE OF ONE. Offer only available to registered terrorists and schizophrenics.

<hr width=100% size=1>Think I'll draw some little rabbits on my head, from a distance they might be mistaken for hairs.

 

[Sea Devil]

Re: Emotive subject...

What is the problem with having the information which is already known about us collated in one place?

If it helps in some small way to save us from another terrible attack? Of course ID cards will not stop terroisim - stop someone planting an atomic bomb in Piccadilly - manchester or london.... It is one part of the defence.

This fight against Muslim extreamist is not going away - Like the northern Ireland problem the freedom fighters will go on and on until we find a way to talk to them and settle our differences. With the best will in the world it will take decades...

In the mean time the 'terrorists' have only to succeed once. Bang or atishoo all fall down......

To fight this sort of war requires action on many fronts - ID cards are just part of our defence - I will put up with an awful lot in order to save us from a fate too horrible to contemplate - and that's what it will be - eventually.

What on earth has everyone got to hide they are so frightend of? The state knows our incomes via tax - the state knows our mortgages, our jobs, bank accounts, education (or lack of it) savings, boat ownership, radio licences, driving licences, previous convictions (if any) pilot licence, HGV licence, marital status..

I have a few things in my life I prefer to keep private but none that would ever be of value on an ID card... So what is it that is so personal - so private - so special that it all being collated in one place is going to embarress you?

It simply means that police and security services may check you out faster and easier and you can be eliminated from inquires - and tax evaision may become harder - Damn!!!!


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[Sea Devil]

Re: an interesting parallel...

<blunkett is deplored because of his lack of sexual morals>

The private live of anyone else is not your affair. You have no business to judge or comment on other peoples private lives - they concern the people involved only!

What is wrong with everyone being so judgmental on the basis of some gossip in the media? - polititians, film stars, sporting heros have a right to behave how they want in private and it should only be of interest to their close family and lovers.



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[rickp]

Re: Emotive subject...

The fact is that nothing on these ID cards will make catching terrorists or criminals any easier, so why should I give up my privacy to an all encompassing government database? Frankly (having worked for the Govt in a classified area) I don't trust them as far as I could throw them.

Anyway - why do you care? According to your bio, you don't even live here.

As for your snide comments and insinuations about tax evasion, I think we can end the discussion there if you're stooping to that level.

Rick

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[bedouin]

Re: Emotive subject...

Okay - leaving aside the civil liberties aspect- have you considered the practical aspects to this.

Every important piece of information about you will be collected together into a single place. If that doesn't worry you it should. It is a hackers/criminals paradise. All I need to do now is get unauthorised access to the data held in one place and I have everything I need to steal your identity.

Think it won't happen? The potential value to criminals of the information held is huge. There will be hundreds of thousands of people who have potentially legitimate reasons to access your data - are they all above reproach?

Central government IT projects of this nature hardly have a good track record - it's not a matter of whether but when the security of the system is breached.

On top of that the cost is massive, the implementation cost will exceed £10bn, which I can think of many better uses for.

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[Sea Devil]

Re: Emotive subject...

Steal my identity? Why? how? and why again?

It makes sense to be able to identify people quickly and accuratly - particulaly in a dangerous world. Of course anyone can steal the identitity of your driving licence, birth certificate, bank account, credit card today - if we live in an IT world all things are possible. ID cards do not alter that situation one way or another - just another computer -

Crimminals to-day may steal part of your identity (normally your dosh via cc,s or bank) but why your whole identity?

Nobody pretends that ID cards are a total solution to anything but they will experdite the identification of individuals. If there are people from foreign countries wanting to do us harm, ID cards presents another hurdle - another deterrant - another risk of getting caught before they let the anthrax out over the marathon runners...

The goverment clearly belives there are huge dangers out there or they would not take the risks with their popularity so close to an election. Much easier to say 'That was the USA - Spain - it will never happen here'!

From what I have seen of the world it will happen - the only question is when and can we get enough defence mechanisms in place quickly enough... 'Peace in our time' is not an option and never was - Really cannot understand why you appear so complacenent.



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[Sea Devil]

Re: Emotive subject...

<As for your snide comments and insinuations about tax evasion, I think we can end the discussion there if you're stooping to that level.>

Really sorry - did not mean to be snide but if the cap fits..........


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[kimhollamby]

Enough!

Debate at will but start throwing insults at your peril (if you want your posts to stay intact).

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[abraxus]

Re: Emotive subject...

Bambola,

I thik you're missing you're missing the point.

Personally I dont really care one way or another about id cards, but the fact is that they wont prevent terrorism one little bit.

As with WMD and Iraq, terrosrism is just the excuse to get them in. Big brother governments, both extreme right and left have always had id cards for the entire poplulation as their political wet dream.

Knowledege is power, and the more information you hold on someone the more power you have over them.

If the police stopped you for speeding and asked for your credit limit, amount owed on credit cards, political affilaitions, and all sorts of other personal information, you may well feel a bit aggrieved. With id cards they wont need to ask.

Terrorsits will continue to use fake id and if they cant forge the cards, will forge passports of other countries that they find easier to copy.

All id cards will do is force law abiding members of the public to divulge more information to the government. This government is hell bent on making as many people dependant upon the state as possible and once there they don't intend to let go.

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[fireball]

Re: Emotive subject...

But isn't all this extra defence part of their attack? Having been involved in LG and IT I agree with the comments of the potential threat to identity security, the information is only as secure as the weakest link.
Just how this is going to help in the fight against terrorism isn't clear - sure they can identify you more easily - but only if a) you have a card and b) have the correct card!

Has it been proved that ID cards are reducing the risk of a terrorist attack?

Or is this another case of - hey I've got an idea, it will create loads of jobs for the boys, but I need a little bit of money .... wouldn't 10bn be better spent on more policemen to reduce the crime on our streets? or ... 10bn to improve our health service or ... 10bn to improve our education service (hey - wouldn't need to charge top up fees then!)

Will the government ever be happy until they can issue the words - "Sit, Stay" and the nation sits, waiting for the treat?

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[PeteMcK]

Data Protection Act

I used to think the original philosophy behind this was to protect the privacy of the individual from, especially, the likes of big corporations and government departments linking their databases to produce the nightmare world Orwell foresaw. It all seemed a bit far fetched when the Act was passed. Not any more. A zillion Intel processors; SAP and Oracle relational databases; CCTV on every corner; character recognition systems; cellular communications (voluntary electronic tagging for the masses!); etc., etc.: wire them all together and offer the possibilities to a cabinet stuffed with former card-carrying members of the old Stalinist Communist Party of Britain. This is where we are today. Of course, as they say, if you've nothing to hide, why worry...

But remember foot and mouth? Inept ministers and incompetent civil servants (in combination, the root cause of the disaster); the total disregard for the rights of individual farmers (excuse: tough - it's for the greater good); the widespread use of barbaric killing practices which would have had any abbatoir manager jailed (tough, it's...etc.). In short, blatant disregard for the law, human rights, animal welfare. I said then that we'd better pray that this lot don't get us into a shooting war.

Well? Technology + Stalinists + "Emergency" = ?

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[bedouin]

Re: Emotive subject...

Try doing a Google search for "Identity Theft" and see what I mean. It is estimated to cost UK £1.5bn per year, and it takes a huge toll emotionally, and time, from the victim (estimated to take each individual 300 hours to sort out).

You may not regard it seriously but it is the fastest growing form of fraud in UK and

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[Sea Devil]

Re: Emotive subject...

But my point is (before I dash off to do some more varnishing) is that the 'state' has all this knowlage anyway - It will be easier to prove your identity with one card with your Iris or fingerprint or dna on it. Harder to steal someones identity for economic fraud when all the existing data base info is tied together.. Him / her at home will protest if a stranger walks in.
But that is not the vital point - You have to ask yourself this:-

Do you belive that we are at immense risk from terrorist attack? That we are at risk from attacks so violent and terrible that a big proportion of the population could be assinated in suicide bombing?

If you belive this then ID cards, along with armed police, survellience camera and taped evidence are all part of a more complicated sceniario to try to avoid the worst happening.

The genie got out of the bottle on September 11th and it is going to be hard to get it back in now that everybody knows how very vulenerable our form of civilisation is.

If you think it is all scare mongering, for some complicated political reason, then tell that to the Yanks and the Spaniards. From what I have seen in the Muslim world there is a gun culture and violence present in every day life that makes life very cheap and a belief in the right of their cause that makes Ian Paisley look like a new born lamb. 99% of the Muslims I have known and met were good people but that remaning 1% is a huge army and prepared to do anything to further their cause.

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