Criminals R Us - boaty

[halcyon]

Re: Emotive subject...

But a number of them are British, and will be issued with ID cards, thus they will only blend in even more. At the moment everyone is a terrorist, once you issue cards you could have 1000's of them that are official, then how do you tell a terroist with a correct ID card??


Brian

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[abraxus]

Re: Emotive subject...

Actually I do believe it's scare mongering, and even if not I firmly believe that id cards will not impede terrorists in the slightest. What do you think they'll do, say "oh sod it they've got id cards now" and just give up?

It suits all governments to have a little fear in the population and fear has been the controlling force for centuries. Look at the success it brought religion.

The terrorist acts of 9/11 played into the hands of the US and gave them carte blanche to act in Afghanistan and Iraq. Most security forces know who the terrorists are anyway and identifying them isn't the problem, it's catching them and convicting them that's harder.

The chances of being a victim of terrorism attack are so small that it hradly bears thinking about, and certainly doesn't diminish with id cards.

If the whole point is to save lives then the 5 or 6 billion is better spent on the NHS or for that matter feeding starving kids in Africa, both would save thousands if not millions more lives than i.d cards ever will. To think otherwise is flawed and assumes that the government think a lot more about the welfare of the poplulation than they do in reality.

We are a small island, with limited entry points. There are much simpler and cheaper ways of protecting these shore from terrorism. I.D cards are all about controlling the general population and nothing to do with restricting external threats. The government knows this but also knows they can't sell the idea on that basis and scare tactics are so much more effective. If they genuinely believe that it will prevent terrorism then they are terminally stupid and frankly that is even more dangerous to our welfare.

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[fireball]

Re: Emotive subject...

"We are a small island, with limited entry points." ... can we change that to "official entry points" ... smugglers have been operating for centuries! It isn't exactly hard to "break in" to England now is it!

So ... do we have to parade around with these ID cards on show? No? Thought not ... so only if your stopped or need to do some official transaction (ie sign on) does it matter ... your average suicide bomber isn't about to do that is (s)he.

For those terrorists that live and work amongst us anyway - false passports are not a problem so why should ID cards be any different ... oh and are we going to stop all foriegners without and ID card comming in - so no tourists .. no thought not ...

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[Bergman]

Re: Emotive subject...

What absolute nonsense.

We already have a means of identification. Its called a passport

No-one can come into the country without one.

People from other countries will not have an ID card so the vulnerability to foreign terrorists is unchanged by the ID card.

So home grown terrorists:

We are well used to dealing with them lots of practice with the Provos who were (and are) not underfunded, not by any means. I could explain some of the sources of their funding but not here.

What defeated or at least checked PIRA was intelligence.

And that is exactly what will defeat Bin Liner and his friends.

ID cards are a complete irrelevance

All we are doing at the moment with this hysterical fear of the Muslim community is making intelligence gathering more difficult, and remarks like yours, verging on the racist do not help.

What we need to defeat UBL is to gain the confidence of the Muslim community, the vast majority of who detest what he is doing as much or probably more than you and I do.

Ask any devout Muslim - he or she will tell you that Islam is about peace, and most of its followers take that seriously, unlike many Christians.

Once you get these people on your side the intelligence will flow and the lunatic frnge will be exposed and eradicated.



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[Sea Devil]

Re: Emotive subject...

It will work like this:

As you know the most common form of ID in the UK is the driving licence along with the name and address. As everyone knows, your date of birth is encoded - not because anyone cares about the DOB but if someone is falsly holding the licence they may well remember the name and address but a DOB will possibly be fogotten.

To have the DNA, Iris or fingerprint fixed on an ID card together with a photo makes it very individual and expensive to fake. However it is the info that is incoded that makes the card so useful to security services and Police.

Fer instance:
We get intelligence that Bin Laden and a couple of guys have entered the country illeagally to blow up the millenium dome. They will be driving a silver coloured car - all units will in area will watch for silver coloured car - hundreds of silver cars to elliminate I bet - now Bin and his 2 mates must be carrying fake ID. Must be cos they entered illegally.

The ID will match in terms of Photo, DNA, fingerprint or Iris and the name and address will be good. It is the embedded info like DOB that will be Bin's downfall - cos - Number of Bank account, name of Doctor, Date of entry to UK, School, Mothers maiden name, etc etc. He is there to blow up the Dome not play Kims game.

All the innocent folks in silver cars will know the embedded info because it has been with them for ever but someone who has taken a false identity will have real problems - particulaly when stressed. Because of the complexity of the card each fake card has to be made to conform to the person carrying it. The background info needs to match the records of the person.

That is why ID cards are so essential - very easy to check if the person holding the card is in fact genuine not just because of fingerprints.

Most successful police work is because of intelligence received - not pounding the beat. Dodgy ID will be just one way innocent people can be quickly elliminated. If your ID does not match the questions and answers then police know for sure you are bent and possibly a terrorist. If you have a false ID then you are in deep trouble.

If they are UK citizens who want to blow up the dome - no false ID. If they have been involved with extreamist orgaisations that information can also be imbedded.

Nothing will stop the young suicide bomber with a clean history but he will only get away with it once -

There is more to it than that but the above alone I would suggest makes the case for ID cards -

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[Sea Devil]

Re: Emotive subject...

<We already have a means of identification. Its called a passport
No-one can come into the country without one.>

Very easy to get into this country without a passport - I have done it - a few years ago - My son and his german girl friend came by ferry to holland to help me bring a boat back to the east coast - they forgot their passports - my son got a weekend passport at the terminal because he was a UK citizen - she could not cos she was german but resident here. She was warned by the ferry co she would not be allowed back into the UK without a passport (which was in London)

They joined me in the boat - we sailed across the north sea arrive in the early hours in a UK port - she went ashore - the customs and immigration arrived and boarded the boat to check and whilst they were on board she walked down the poontoon crying words like ' Welcom back - did you have a good trip' easy as hell to get into a country with as big a shoreline as the UK.

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[fireball]

Re: Emotive subject...

That is the lamest excuse for ID cards I have _EVER_ seen ... how long did you waste typing it?

If you really think that a terrorist act is _that_ basic then your either nieve or think we are ..

<blockquote><font size=1>Quote from previous post:</font><hr>

Nothing will stop the young suicide bomber with a clean history but he will only get away with it once -

<hr></blockquote>


Well - he's hardly going to try a second time is he!

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[halcyon]

Re: Emotive subject...

Yes but the person with the bomb is living here now as a national, there was and is a lot of them in Afganistan, so when you check there siver car they have an ID, so they must be clean.
Thank you Sir, the millenium dome, just down the the road take a right and it's on your left. The only use of the ID then is to tell who was blown up.

That or board the first MOBO of the Thames and sail up with bomb on board.


Brian

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[halcyon]

Re: Emotive subject...

What I find more worrying is that the government shares Bambolos's view, and actually think ID cards will stop the terrorists.
Think I would prefer to think they have a secret agenda.

Brian

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[fireball]

Re: Emotive subject...

Secret Agenda - they probably do - the ID cards is the most palitable!

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[Bergman]

Re: Emotive subject...

Very good

But what difference precisely would an ID card have made?

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[Sea Devil]

Re: Emotive subject...

<Quote from previous post:

Nothing will stop the young suicide bomber with a clean history but he will only get away with it once - >

It was a joke!

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<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.michaelbriant.com/sailing>http://www.michaelbriant.com/sailing</A><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Bambola on 04/12/2004 08:19 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Sea Devil]

Re: Emotive subject...

Of course you are right - The person living here - legally - inbedded in our society is a very real and present danger. And if happy to commit suicide for their belief - frightening!

Most police work is 'intellegence' based. Once you have a list of suspects their known associates are also on that list - a young activist, born and bred here, may be on a list of known associates. An ID card will reveal that intelligence.

The ID card is of course not a 'magic bullet' cure all..... But simply one weapon in the armoury against a group of people who only have to get lucky once - (or 5 times like in Spain yesterday) Cannot understand the concept that the Goverment is out to wreck the country but terrorists are simply not a threat that needs massive resouces to combat.

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[abraxus]

Re: Emotive subject...

Bambola

I understand where you're coming from but I actually think that if most people truly believed that id cards would be used solely to protect us from criminals and terrorists then we'd all be happy with the idea, even though we know it wouldn't work, and even though we know it will cost a fortune.

The problem is that in reality many believe, probably rightly, that they will predominantly be used to store as much information on everyday citizens as possible and be used to continually restrict us in what we can and can't do.

It has already been proven that when it comes to creating and enforcing new laws, the easiest to prosecute and collect fines from are average, law abiding people. An id card enables the govt to regulate these more and more and ensure we comply with every petty rule they decide to dream up, with revenue generating fines if we don't.

As an example, you state on the liveaboard forum that you intend to buy a catamaran in the US, sail it back to Europe and not worry too much about formalities, regulations and legislation. It is likely that a mature id system with it's associated records, will not let you do something like that so easily.

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[Sea Devil]

Re: Emotive subject...

<A intend to buy a catamaran in the US, sail it back to Europe and not worry too much about formalities, regulations and legislation. It is likely that a mature id system with it's associated records, will not let you do something like that so easily.>

Absolutly right - I agree - once the ID card really takes hold then I have even greater problems than the above........ But ultimatly I will have to toe the line - live by the rules or move to the south pacific...

The trouble is the ID card will be one of the essential weapons against terrorism and it will be a tool against people not paying their taxes, thumbing their noses at legislation.

But everybody has a choice - live by the rules of the society you are in and pay your dues, taxes like a proper citizen and protect yourself against a fearless, imaginiative, ruthless enemy

OR

go sailing


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[abraxus]

Re: Emotive subject...

I'm with you on the last point.

Good luck!!!

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[RichardPerou]

I have read you lot going on about things with increasing despair.
Have you fogotten the fiasco of the Poll Tax when half of the young population seemed to disappear.
Charge the population £ 85 to have one to have an ID card? Same bloke who suggested that some offenders should be dragged off to an ATM to pay a fine must have suggested that.
Relax, it is all smoke and mirrors. Politicians must appear to be doing somthing to keep their name in the papers.

Take a course of 'Yes Minister'


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[ShipsWoofy]

Grrrr

Just got home from round one of Christmas shopping in Warrington.

At the car park on leaving I took my blue badge to the counter to get the ticket authorised so I can leave. Free parking see, before anyone jumps up and down, free parking is a godsend, I have to drive, public transport is just not an option from my house.

Anyhow, guy in peaked cap takes the ticket and holds it under a digital camera by his desk. 'What are you doing' says I, 'Oh, Warrington Council wants us to keep a record of blue badge holders who are using the car park', says he.

I went a little nuts, they do not take details of other users, why should I have the council pry on my shopping habits, what right did they have to take my details for visiting a place and ignore the other 99.9% of users.

Next time I will bloody pay rather than feel abused in this way.

Paranoid, over sensitive?

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[Gunfleet]

Re: Grrrr

Check the legality of it with 'http://www.informationcommissioner.gov.uk'. Since the council is keeping information in a digital form they have to conform to rules regarding how they keep it , how they gather it and what use they make of it. People - including councils - are often ignorant of their responsibilities for information gathered in this way. Also you might consider the Disability Discrimination Act - I quote from the Disability Rights commission website

'Under the DDA, discrimination occurs where:

* a disabled person is treated less favourably than someone else
* the treatment is for a reason relating to the persons disability
* the treatment cannot be justified'


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