COLREG Survey - Familiarity with sailboat day signals

[john_morris_uk]

It's not nicknamed the 'RYA burgee' for nothing....

Or 'Examiner Onboard'.

Have used it extensively around the Straits of Gibraltar however as its a busy area. It's helpful to indicate to all those other vessels that despite having a sail up, you are using your engine to propel the yacht and will maneuver as a power driven vessel.

I think that’s the last time I used ours.

 

[srm]

Lets face it, nowadays so called sailing yachts are really fully powered motor boats with a tall mast(s) and auxiliary sails.

 

[Supertramp]

It's not nicknamed the 'RYA burgee' for nothing....

Or 'Examiner Onboard'.

Have used it extensively around the Straits of Gibraltar however as its a busy area. It's helpful to indicate to all those other vessels that despite having a sail up, you are using your engine to propel the yacht and will maneuver as a power driven vessel.

It would be interesting to get a view from a merchant, fishing or naval vessel. Do they make different decisions when they see a yacht with a black cone? Or do all yachts get treated the same?

I think a motor(sailing) yacht makes different decisions to a sailing yacht, especially regarding other yachts and being the stand on vessel. But its a bit like judging whether a fishing boat is fishing or on passage.

If I felt it was going to alter behaviour of others, I might consider using it. And perhaps in very busy or confined waters it might. But singlehanded in busy waters the act of raising and lowering might introduce new complications. Similar to the reason why I stow and mount my fenders and lines while still at sea.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Lets face it, nowadays so called sailing yachts are really fully powered motor boats with a tall mast(s) and auxiliary sails.

Which is probably why sailing became more popular. For a weekend yottie you can more or less sail, or motor, to a schedule providing the forecast is reasonable. There is probably more chance of the schedule failing being held up on the drive home.

 

[capnsensible]

Most certainly bridge watchkeepers serving on merchant vessels and military vessels must qualify as competent regarding IRPCS.
Also, of course, those that operate smaller craft commercially. In some waters, fishing vessel skippers too.

However, there are some smaller fishing vessels operating away from Europe where a small fishing boat skipper wouldn't know what a motor sailing cone was even if you bashed him over the head with it.

Plus, of course, leisure sailors all over the world that don't know, don't care or can't be bothered.....

 

[Supertramp]

My point was less about if they would recognise it and more about what they do differently when one is spotted. I suspect they assess the situation and decide whether action is needed regardless of cones. Assuming they have seen the yacht......

 

[capnsensible]

Bridge Watchkeeping: A Practical Guide, 3rd Edition (Paperback): Captain Mark Bull FNI: 9781906915926: Amazon.com: Books

Worth a read.

 

[srm]

My point was less about if they would recognise it and more about what they do differently when one is spotted. I suspect they assess the situation and decide whether action is needed regardless of cones. Assuming they have seen the yacht......

I was running Radar and Electronic Nav Aids simulator courses up to 2010 for MN deck officers. In open waters the requirement was that potential close quarters situations were identified at 5 miles and avoiding action by course correction was made at 3 miles from the radar contact.

Modern watch keeping is almost entirely electronic with integrated aids giving automatic identification of close quarters situations so there are a lot fewer people on the bridge than in the past. Realistically, the Officer of the Watch will also have paperwork to keep up to date so probably relies on electronic alarms to alert him.

In busy enclosed waters such as the Channel, Dover Straight, and port approaches the engine room should be on maneuvering standby and the bridge team will usually be increased with the master monitoring the watch keepers and possibly visual lookouts posted, depending on the size of the ship and crew available.

Basically, if we want to be seen we need to be positively identified by radar and/or AIS at five miles plus, possibly a little less in busy waterways and near channels. Most commercial vessel are not agile or easy to maneuver quickly so need time to assess the situation and respond appropriately.

Draw your own conclusions on the usefulness of day shapes.

 

[westhinder]

I was running Radar and Electronic Nav Aids simulator courses up to 2010 for MN deck officers. In open waters the requirement was that potential close quarters situations were identified at 5 miles and avoiding action by course correction was made at 3 miles from the radar contact.

Modern watch keeping is almost entirely electronic with integrated aids giving automatic identification of close quarters situations so there are a lot fewer people on the bridge than in the past. Realistically, the Officer of the Watch will also have paperwork to keep up to date so probably relies on electronic alarms to alert him.

In busy enclosed waters such as the Channel, Dover Straight, and port approaches the engine room should be on maneuvering standby and the bridge team will usually be increased with the master monitoring the watch keepers and possibly visual lookouts posted, depending on the size of the ship and crew available.

Basically, if we want to be seen we need to be positively identified by radar and/or AIS at five miles plus, possibly a little less in busy waterways and near channels. Most commercial vessel are not agile or easy to maneuver quickly so need time to assess the situation and respond appropriately.

Draw your own conclusions on the usefulness of day shapes.

Thank you, this is very useful information.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I was running Radar and Electronic Nav Aids simulator courses up to 2010 for MN deck officers. In open waters the requirement was that potential close quarters situations were identified at 5 miles and avoiding action by course correction was made at 3 miles from the radar contact.

Modern watch keeping is almost entirely electronic with integrated aids giving automatic identification of close quarters situations so there are a lot fewer people on the bridge than in the past. Realistically, the Officer of the Watch will also have paperwork to keep up to date so probably relies on electronic alarms to alert him.

In busy enclosed waters such as the Channel, Dover Straight, and port approaches the engine room should be on maneuvering standby and the bridge team will usually be increased with the master monitoring the watch keepers and possibly visual lookouts posted, depending on the size of the ship and crew available.

Basically, if we want to be seen we need to be positively identified by radar and/or AIS at five miles plus, possibly a little less in busy waterways and near channels. Most commercial vessel are not agile or easy to maneuver quickly so need time to assess the situation and respond appropriately.

Draw your own conclusions on the usefulness of day shapes.

One of the only times I’ve called another vessel regarding IRPCS was a couple of years ago. With a very light westerly breeze we were motor sailing north across the channel under Genoa and Mainsail with cone up. As we approached the shipping lanes a large cargo ship was seen on our starboard beam with AIS suggesting that our CPA was going to be very close. . I knew that our cone would be invisible from the bridge of the ship as, even had they looked through binoculars, they wouldn’t be able to see it through the genoa. We were stand on vessel under sail but give way under power. I called the ship ( identification through AIS) and explained briefly the problem and said we would be altering to starboard to open up the CPA. The bridge watch keeper understood the problem and was very grateful.

 

[Daedelus]

I was doing yachtmaster exam and got the short straw of near gale force winds and a very lumpy sea, we didn't have far to go to enter port an I told the examiner I knew we should have a motoring cone up but I wasn't risking losing myself or the crew over the side for 5 minutes until the water was flat enough to let us drop the sails safely and he was quite happy with that.

On one occasion crossing the channel in what became a flat calm we hoisted a motoring cone and were under engine and main alone crossing the shipping lane and were just about to alter course for a cargo ship on collision course when he kindly altered and went astern of us. I hoped he had his binoculars on us as I doffed my cap and waved a thank you when we passed each other.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I'm interested in the prevalence of motor-sailing. I don't do it, for two reasons. The first is straightforward - if the engine is running anyway, it will run with peak efficiency driving the boat at hull speed, so the sails will add little while restricting my ability to manoeuvre.

The second is that under some circumstances, the sails are more powerful than the engine, so it is possible for the boat to respond to the helm in unexpected ways. If the sails are up, I have to steer according to the set of the sails, so I might as well be sailing.

Finally, if my sails are up, they will be drawing. Sails are expensive, so I try not to let them flap! But in combination with the engine, this imposes restrictions on the directions I can steer that are even more stringent than those imposed by sailing alone.

 

[mattonthesea]

Antarctic Pilot

Mainly to reduce roll in a swell; and if I've missed a tidal gate etc

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Yep mainsail up to stop the Holman roll.

 

[Halo]

A lot of thread drift but I cant help it. I often motorsail on a long passage in light(ish) airs. It will frequently increase my speed to hull speed with cosiderably less engine revs than straight motoring - if the wind is there and I can use it then I do so.

Not sure about the motives of the research - is it pure curiosity or is there an agenda? proving that many yachties admit they dont follow the rules (even if they are not necessary ) is unlikely to prompt any outcome that the folks on this forum would welcome. Turkeys should'nt vote for Christmas even at Christmas.

 

[capnsensible]

Motoring with the mainsail up makes you far more easily seen by other water users. It even draws their attention to that black pointy thing.

 

[Never Grumble]

It would be interesting to get a view from a merchant, fishing or naval vessel. Do they make different decisions when they see a yacht with a black cone? Or do all yachts get treated the same?

When I was watch keeping admittedly on nothing bigger than frigates and in the days before GPS/AIS etc you generally never saw a yacht at anything but short range and because of differences in speed it was easy to assess and manoeuvre around if necessary. In the Solent we just a careful watch and to be quite honest never looked out for a motoring cone, lets face it a yacht whether under sail or motor have a maximum speed of say 6 to 8 knots we tended not to get too worried if they got relatively close, its what we did every day of the week as the dedicated nav training frigate.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Can't see a motoring cone on this one.

Supertanker Becomes Vastly More Efficient By Adding Small Sails

 

[Barnacle Bill]

I'm interested in the prevalence of motor-sailing....

There is one situation where I've found motor-sailing to be extremely useful, and that's if you're caught out in a very strong wind and biggish seas, and want to get up-wind to safety/shelter. Motor-sail, just with a reefed main, and you'll find that you can 'pinch' much closer to the wind than sailing - say, 20-25°, and the power of the main will keep you going through steep waves far more effectively than motoring on its own (when the prop cavitates).

 

[srm]

Motor-sail, just with a reefed main, and you'll find that you can 'pinch' much closer to the wind than sailing - say, 20-25°,

Yes, have done that a few times, perhaps the most extreme was motorsailing under storm jib and trisail to windward in open water to get 20 odd miles for a winter lift out. Boat was a Trintella 29 and engine an 8 HP Sabb. Engine alone would not have got me there and sailing would have ment a wide tacking angle as waves were "interesting" and wind forecast was F8.