COLREG Survey - Familiarity with sailboat day signals

[srm]

In the days of hank on headsails there were times when I would sail under mainsail. One fresh day I was heading north through the Sound of Iona. I assumed the boat heading south with only a mainsail was motoring. At a narrow turn in the channel we passed perhaps a bit closer than necessary and I realised that the other boat was also sailing. I suspect we both assumed that the other, having an empty fore triangle, was motoring and would give way.
The ColRegs do make the point that assumptions can be dangerous.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Obviously but the "conclusion" I want to see reached is that because the motor sailing cone is hardly ever displayed on fore and aft rigged yachts and hardly anybody cares that it isn't, it might as well be dispensed with in the ColRegs.

Maybe, but that doesn't mean it isn't required. For example, a large sailing ship, underway with sails up, but motoring, would be required to show the day shape so that other vessels understand that she is under power. It doesn't matter why they would be under sail and power, just that they can be, and therefore to avoid confusion there is a day shape. I don't use mine for short sail / motor combinations e.g. main up at anchor, motoring out of bay then going sailing, but I do hoist if motor sailing for any appreciable time. I am a fore an aft rigged vessel at 12.3m, so is M5 at 78.4m.

Maybe the issue is folks ignoring rules that are designed to keep as all from colliding rather than a single example of lack of usage.

 

[Poignard]

Maybe, but that doesn't mean it isn't required. For example, a large sailing ship, underway with sails up, but motoring, would be required to show the day shape so that other vessels understand that she is under power. It doesn't matter why they would be under sail and power, just that they can be, and therefore to avoid confusion there is a day shape. I don't use mine for short sail / motor combinations e.g. main up at anchor, motoring out of bay then going sailing, but I do hoist if motor sailing for any appreciable time. I am a fore an aft rigged vessel at 12.3m, so is M5 at 78.4m.

Maybe the issue is folks ignoring rules that are designed to keep as all from colliding rather than a single example of lack of usage.

I specifically referred to fore-and-aft rigged yachts.

But the point is that when any rule, or law, is widely ignored and no harm results, then it's time to look at it anew and decide whether it is worth keeping in its present form, or worth keeping at all.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I specifically referred to fore-and-aft rigged yachts.

But the point is that when any rule, or law, is widely ignored and no harm results, then it's time to look at it anew and decide whether it is worth keeping in its present form, or worth keeping at all.

Yes, I know you did and I gave two examples of fore and aft rigged yachts with significantly different LOAs, both of which could be motor sailing. The smaller yacht easily fits into the ignore and stay out the way practise, but the larger yacht would very much help fellow watch keepers on other vessels by using the upside down cone.

My opinion is that your suggestion has no merit. However, a small boat ignoring the rules, is very manageable and likely does not represent a material risk to aiding a collision; then there is Post No 21.

 

[srm]

I specifically referred to fore-and-aft rigged yachts

But, what is a "Yacht"? The ColRegs do not use that term. Vessels are either power driven or sail.

 

[Poignard]

All I have suggested is that it be looked at.

 

[srm]

All I have suggested is that it be looked at.

Then your starting point is the (International Maritime Organisation) IMO.
Please let us know how you get on as you will need the agreement of the 175 member states.
International Maritime Organization

 

[RunAgroundHard]

All I have suggested is that it be looked at.

Apologies if my reply appears terse. I did mean it to be contributory, not so dismissive.

The colregs already allow exemption due to size, perhaps there is scope here.

 

[Poignard]

Then your starting point is the (International Maritime Organisation) IMO.
Please let us know how you get on as you will need the agreement of the 175 member states.
International Maritime Organization

I very much doubt whether any individual has the standing to get the IMO to review its regulations.

But then I don't need to.

I do know, from practical experience, that the regulation requiring the use of motor sailing cones may as well not exist. I don't use one, I don't see other people using them. No official with the authority to do so has ever told me I should be using one. I know of no court case where a yachtsman has ended up paying damages to another after a collision caused by his failing to display a cone.

Eventually some periodic review of ColRegs may result in the regulation being removed or amended. It will not break my heart if it is isn't. It will not bring me great joy if it is.

 

[dunedin]

Obviously but the "conclusion" I want to see reached is that because the motor sailing cone is hardly ever displayed on fore and aft rigged yachts and hardly anybody cares that it isn't, it might as well be dispensed with in the ColRegs.

Actually, generally the motor sailing cone is completely useless. The only time when it might be useful is when a boat is motorsailing under main and genoa. But in that situation the cone is hidden behind the sails for at least 180 degrees of arc, likely more.

 

[Egbod]

Actually, generally the motor sailing cone is completely useless. The only time when it might be useful is when a boat is motorsailing under main and genoa. But in that situation the cone is hidden behind the sails for at least 180 degrees of arc, likely more.

I agree with dunedin about the poor visibility of a motoring cone.
To solve that I have a (removable) fitting going up from the pulpit to hold the motoring cone where it can be seen better. It is also quicker and easier to fit and remove- more safely than hoisting it into the rigging to crash around.
I use the same fitting to display the anchor ball (with an extension to hold the anchor light)

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

I have never seen one but if I were to encounter a yacht with sails up and displaying a motorsailing cone I would simply assume he didn't know what he was doing and give him a very wide berth.

 

[FWB]

In my local area which is Carrick Roads and Helford, most boats display an anchor ball when at anchor even in in designated areas, even though it’s obvious that the boats are at anchor. It’s traditional and good seamanship but more importantly I hoist one for insurance reasons. If hit at anchor I can say that I was displaying the fact.
As to motoring cones, well I would be keeping a lookout and hopefully minimising my chances of a collision. I usually motor with the main up since the boat is less effected by swell and it is obvious that the boat is under engine. The insurance angle I hopefully avoid by doing my best to avoid a collision. If I were to undertake a long passage on a windless day with the main up, then I might hoist the cone to cover the insurance angle.….but probably not. In many years of sailing I’ve never hoisted the cone.

 

[Praxinoscope]

With respect to John Morris #9 I thought the questionnaire was so basic and poorly formatted it must have been compiled by a child of 10.

 

[westhinder]

As far as I can tell the only country where the motoring cone is widely used is Belgium, and the reason is simple: enforcement. The maritime police are known to come alongside and point out you’re not displaying the cone. If they are in a bad mood they may board and do a thorough check of your paperwork, emergency equipment or other equipment you’re required by law to carry. In Nieuwpoort, our largest yacht harbour, they are often to be found moored in the long entrance channel on weekends, observing the traffic. We, like many other Belgian boats, have our cone permanently rigged on a halyard, so it is just a second’s work to hoist it. When visiting other countries we have been asked what it signifies more than once.

 

[Dellquay13]

I usually unfurl about 30-40cm of genny, as a dark triangle of uv strip, instead of using the motoring cone.

 

[Sandy]

With respect to John Morris #9 I thought the questionnaire was so basic and poorly formatted it must have been compiled by a child of 10.

Perhaps English is not a first language.

As I posted above I gave up on reading the questionnaire. The assumption that a 'leisure sailor' only having a Day Skipper indicated a lack of understanding of the UK way of doing things.

 

[Arcady]

I usually unfurl about 30-40cm of genny, as a dark triangle of uv strip, instead of using the motoring cone.

Wouldn’t that look like a cone hoisted apex upwards - i.e. incorrectly deployed?

 

[NormanS]

Question 5. "What day signal shall exhibit a vessel......" ??

 

[Dellquay13]

Wouldn’t that look like a cone hoisted apex upwards - i.e. incorrectly deployed?

It’s not ideal, but easily done and more than some bother with.
I always believed the use of a cone was to show a triangle shape from any aspect, as opposed to a flat triangle which is only apparent from 90deg. To me, a flat triangle is better than no cone whichever way up.
As a sailboat under power, we are so far down the list of priority as to being a stand on vessel, as long as I observe the correct manoeuvre in each situation, no other vessel is inconvenienced by my lack of cone vs triangle of jib.
In my sailing grounds of Milford Haven, with all its gas tankers, Irish ferrys, tugs, pilot boats and vessels engaged in fishing, realistically, when under power I am only the stand on vessel to leisure power boats and then only when on their starboard bow, so in most occasions of meeting other traffic, I am altering course.