clipping on

[peter gibbs]

Far too many transom ladders are nominal two rungs with the third too high to access. 5 rungs at least is essential to drag yourself out of the water. I strongly recommend replacement or fitting a fold down extension. Two strong hand grips fixed alongside the ladder are also essential to gain purchase - grabbing the rear stay base is no substitute.

Anyone hauling themselves from the water will be in an impaired state, shock etc, and only able to exert maybe half their normal grip. Be prepared.

The other problem is ladders folding upwards or inwards and in reality out of reach when you are in the water. A line allowing the ladder to be pulled down is essential.

Finally, much as I admire the contributor above who has a string pullout, I have to tell him this is useless. When engaging feet in the ladder your weight will force your legs right under the hull and you will get no purchase or elevation. Please do not rely on this arrangement. Just try climbing on the hard and you will see my point.

I make this point so often when discussing mast climbing. Rope ladders and any device that can swing away and unbalance the climber is useless and dangerous. The risk of inversion is real. So it is with transom rope ladders - there is no effective purchase.

PWG.

 

[mattonthesea]

Solo usually not clipped on if weather is nice, never use a lj but lightweight climbing harness and grigri so lanyard is always as short as it can be. Really handy at the mast as well so you can lean back in the harness to work. Wind up harness stays on 24/7 for days at a time til it calms down.
As for ladder to get back on.. Imho installing such things should only be addressed *after* you've sat down and thought long and hard about everything you could realistically do to make sure they aren't ever needed in the first place. Stay on board, not really that difficult.

When I was solo I agree with you completely. Never thought of grigri though - good idea. I use a standard lifeline figure of eight in the middle with a krab so it's too short to let me go over the guard rail. As my partner is not a sailor (she loves the cruising life though) I assume I'm solo because, if I go over then I'm lost and I think she would be too. And before you say it I've tried to teach her - she's just doesn't take it in.

Climbing back in/on is a skill to learn. I teach beginners to climb; the first thing is to get them to use their feet rather than their arms. Foot up on a high stepped ladder and a quick swivel of your body weight over the foot is easy - but only if you've practised. And yes my partner is fab at that

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Far too many transom ladders are nominal two rungs with the third too high to access. 5 rungs at least is essential to drag yourself out of the water. I strongly recommend replacement or fitting a fold down extension. Two strong hand grips fixed alongside the ladder are also essential to gain purchase - grabbing the rear stay base is no substitute.

Anyone hauling themselves from the water will be in an impaired state, shock etc, and only able to exert maybe half their normal grip. Be prepared.

The other problem is ladders folding upwards or inwards and in reality out of reach when you are in the water. A line allowing the ladder to be pulled down is essential.

Finally, much as I admire the contributor above who has a string pullout, I have to tell him this is useless. When engaging feet in the ladder your weight will force your legs right under the hull and you will get no purchase or elevation. Please do not rely on this arrangement. Just try climbing on the hard and you will see my point.

I make this point so often when discussing mast climbing. Rope ladders and any device that can swing away and unbalance the climber is useless and dangerous. The risk of inversion is real. So it is with transom rope ladders - there is no effective purchase.

PWG.

I quite agree, as a climber I have tried rope ladders for access and for limited mine or cave exploration. Frightening and hard at first and probably little use unassisted from half submerged start point.

I do use rope ladders on masts with the bottom of the ladder tied to mast foot, as Navigator not able to haul me up with winch, but I am then wearing climbing harness instead so Navigator only has to keep me belayed on top halliard, and I still dont like it at all

 

[NotBirdseye]

The seatbelt isn't a good analogy, if you are in a car on the road you run the risk of being hit by another and even at 30 mph if you meet another at the same speed the result can be disastrous but boating just isn't like that.
Most of the posts are imagining circumstances where I also would take appropriate precautions but boating isn't always like that or there would be far fewer boat owners. In the days when I did deliveries I was aware of the potential dangers, of the fact that we were short handed and pushing it a bit because the owner wanted his boat there asap and I insisted on the necessary measures but I remember one occasion when we were motoring without a breath of wind, the three of us playing cards, stripped to the waist in bright sunshine and even though we were in the middle of Biscay it would have been plain daft to insist on everyone wearing an LJ and being clipped on. As I said "moderation" or if you prefer plain common sense

I may not clip on until it gets bumpy but getting on a boat without a life jacket is a mistake.

 

[RupertW]

I may not clip on until it gets bumpy but getting on a boat without a life jacket is a mistake.

That again is a matter of opinion. The worst that will happen is you fall in the water between harbour wall and boat, or tender and boat and that doesn’t happen that often. I would prefer not to carry lifejackets off to a meal out but am always happy to provide guests with ones if they prefer.

 

[penberth3]

That again is a matter of opinion. The worst that will happen is you fall in the water between harbour wall and boat, or tender and boat and that doesn’t happen that often......

I might be wrong, but I thought that's just where most accidents (and fatalities) did happen?

 

[RupertW]

I might be wrong, but I thought that's just where most accidents (and fatalities) did happen?

I think you are right but where we sail the water is 25-30 degrees C, and most crew spend half the day swimming in the water so there is no cold shock or unfamiliarity, and of course some crew prefer to wear them. As it happens I didn’t often wear life jackets in tenders when in sailing in the UK but I probably would now.

 

[Laser310]

maybe someone mentioned it...

but if you are alone, and fall off tethered, there is a reasonable chance that the autopilot is on.., and you can use a remote to steer the boat into the wind enough to try to figure things out. maybe have a remote strapped to one arm or somewhere that might be accessible.

of course, you wouldn't want to be going 10-12kts.., but at more reasonable speeds it might be possible in some cases

 

[25931]

I may not clip on until it gets bumpy but getting on a boat without a life jacket is a mistake.

Not quite sure what you mean ? boarding without wearing one or without possessing one

 

[Never Grumble]

I remember spending 4 hours searching for a man overboard. He'd gone over the side from a yacht adjacent to the Shingles, not sure of the exact circumstances but was around sunrise. We just happened to be in the area and brought into the search; we were released from task after 4 hours as by then as likelihood of survival had passed. The body was eventually found washed up on a beach, every time I go past there I see his ghost. Needless to say in our boat kids are almost always clipped on and adults too unless the conditions are benign.

 

[fredrussell]

...Since this event, I have now fitted an emergency rope ladder that can be reached whilst in the water which I hope I will never have to use.

That rope ladder will be almost impossible to use, even as an aid to reach the stainless ladder. I’ve tried - as you push with your foot on rung the ladder just swings away from you under boat until your body is practically horizontal. Why don’t you just extend your stainless ladder? That’s what I did after I had a very similar experience to you trying to get someone out of the water using a too short boarding ladder. Mine now extends three or four rungs below water surface.

 

[25931]

I remember spending 4 hours searching for a man overboard. He'd gone over the side from a yacht adjacent to the Shingles, not sure of the exact circumstances but was around sunrise. We just happened to be in the area and brought into the search; we were released from task after 4 hours as by then as likelihood of survival had passed. The body was eventually found washed up on a beach, every time I go past there I see his ghost. Needless to say in our boat kids are almost always clipped on and adults too unless the conditions are benign.

At last- a balanced view "almost always" "conditions are benign"

 

[Birdseye]

When I started sailing, I was told that falling off the boat is one of the most high risk events that can happen at sea, and even in relatively benign conditions, it can be hard to recover a MOB.

As a result, I've always been quite diligent about "clipping on", when on passage, Recently, I was told that if you find yourself overboard but attached to the boat which carries on sailing, you may quickly drown due to water being forced down your throat. Sounds grim.

I also note that the Vendee Globe sailors (and many others) seem rarely to bother attaching themselves to their boat, even when its blasting along at 20 knots in the Southern Ocean, which would seem like exactly the sort of situation when you would want to be clipped on.

So, what are people's views? Do the risks and inconvenience of being clipped on actually outweigh the benefits, unless you are doing something specific such as working at the mast in rough conditions? In that situation, you can use a line that would prevent you from leaving the deck, but when attached to jackstays, it's impractical to have a short enough line that you couldn't end up over the side if something unexpected happens.

I have turned a blind eye to the risk. I clip on when single handing at night but then I never go forward at night anyway.

If I clipped on and went forward I would use the windward deck side and have a tether that was less than the beam of the boat

 

[NotBirdseye]

Not quite sure what you mean ? boarding without wearing one or without possessing one

Both.

 

[25931]

Both.

If when I'm in a marina and someone who came for dinner turned up wearing an LJ I would be a touch surprised

 

[NotBirdseye]

If when I'm in a marina and someone who came for dinner turned up wearing an LJ I would be a touch surprised

I wouldn't. But then, I have a standing rule on my boat, no life jacket, no boarding. I'd have a slightly different opinion if my boat was at least 160ft long but even then I'd have a 'noone on deck without a life jacket' rule. To be fair my boat is 30ft, there isn't much room to invite anyone for dinner... that's what the Yacht Club is for.

 

[25931]

If when I'm in a marina and someone who came for dinner turned up wearing an LJ I would be a touch surprised

Likewise, of course if he were to turn up wearing a DJ

 

[Never Grumble]

At last- a balanced view "almost always" "conditions are benign"

Everyone has to have their own view on risk, in part that depends on past experience, mine is associated with tragic death. With the kids almost always means generally when we are under way, I know benign is rather a wide meaningless measure.

 

[25931]

Everyone has to have their own view on risk, in part that depends on past experience, mine is associated with tragic death. With the kids almost always means generally when we are under way, I know benign is rather a wide meaningless measure.

Far from criticizing In was complimenting you after some unbalanced posts and your adjective was very suitable.

 

[Daydream believer]

I sail solo. I have a line rigged over the side from near the bow to the transom that can be easily reached from the water. If one falls from a dinghy there is nothing one can grab and in any tide one can be quickly swept away from the boat. A line gives one a chance to hold on & work along to the stern & climb aboard.
If I go on deck I do not do it unless really necessary. All lines lead to the cockpit. If I do have to go I just slow the boat down first. generally it is to get fenders in or get lines ready to enter port & drop sails. So there is no need to blast along at 6 kts. If I do these things close to or in ports ( ie Cherbourg, Dieppe Boulogne, river Orwell, etc etc) I could grab the side lines Hook a 150mm tether that I have on my LJ, Cut the main tether & slide to the back of the boat. I will be dragged along clear of the boat but the way the line is rigged, high up at the stern, it should lift me a little. If i cannot climb aboard the boat will eventually hit a wall or run aground somewhere & hopefully someone will start asking questions & come & look. If it runs aground in the Orwell or Blackwater or a sandbank I can walk ashore. It is just a last roll of the dice but worth giving it a go.