Caught by the scamera

[lustyd]

I'm having trouble actually finding out what the speed limit is in Falmouth. They do state 6kt but I can't find reference to what they intend to measure, nor can I see reference to how it was measured in this instance from the static camera. I can only assume it's STW which would be sensible since relative speed will be consistent and traditionally that's all boats would have been able to measure. I assume it can't be SOG since not all boats can measure that and in many instances tides would have you breaking limits just drifting. As such, I am curious whether he was "going three times the limit" or perhaps he was going less than that but with the tide, making him seem more reckless than he was.

If we're going to prosecute purely for speeding offences then perhaps these little details need more coverage.

 

[westernman]

I'm having trouble actually finding out what the speed limit is in Falmouth. They do state 6kt but I can't find reference to what they intend to measure, nor can I see reference to how it was measured in this instance from the static camera. I can only assume it's STW which would be sensible since relative speed will be consistent and traditionally that's all boats would have been able to measure. I assume it can't be SOG since not all boats can measure that and in many instances tides would have you breaking limits just drifting. As such, I am curious whether he was "going three times the limit" or perhaps he was going less than that but with the tide, making him seem more reckless than he was.

If we're going to prosecute purely for speeding offences then perhaps these little details need more coverage.

My understanding is that boating speed limits are STW not SOG.

 

[ShinyShoe]

I think that is an example where the rigidity of the rules and rule makers, show how they fail in the real world. A kill cord that is short enough to be effective will pull out when reaching for the mooring rope, cleat or boat hook....if you stop the engine before securing the boat there is a risk that the situation will deteriorate...for example the boat blowing off the dock..leading to a situation where a person might lean too far over the side to reach something and put themselves at risk.
I appreciate that them is the rules..but following the rules blindly has led to many a sticky end

You need to get someone to check your technique. Because I drive various RIBs most weekends, and unless it's dreadfully set up it's not a problem. we bring our painter (aka bow mooring line) in board and slip knot it to lifeline. The line is just short of the boat length so can't chop in the prop. It's tied to the tube lifeline near the helm so very accessible without leaving the helm. You should be able to hold alongside a cleat if you did PB2. So just loop line through or over depending on design. Sorted.

Define "driving a boat". Do you include the time when you're down below using a paper chart? Personally I think talking on a phone at the helm is far safer.

If you are doing 18kts down below with no-one at the helm, with or without a phone in harbour you need your head read.

It's wholly different in every way imaginable. If you can't see that I imagine you've not spent a lot of time on the water.

I've spent plenty time on the water. Explain the difference. A Harbour is effectively a boat car park. Mixed users. Mixed risks. All mitigated with reduced speeds. You can't see every water user because of other boats. You can't tell what people on moorings etc are doing.

I'm having trouble actually finding out what the speed limit is in Falmouth. They do state 6kt but I can't find reference to what they intend to measure, nor can I see reference to how it was measured in this instance from the static camera. I can only assume it's STW which would be sensible since relative speed will be consistent and traditionally that's all boats would have been able to measure. I assume it can't be SOG since not all boats can measure that and in many instances tides would have you breaking limits just drifting.

I assume boats nowadays are more likely to measure SOG with GPS. But no requirement to be able to measure either

Speed limit is defined here:Falmouth Harbour General Bye Laws - Falmouth Harbour, Cornwall and by defined, I mean, not specifically defined.

So you can go to court and argue the case and let court tell us which they believe applies... But 18kts is well off the mark... Does it matter if you are doing 12kts, 15kts or 18kts in a 6kt limit?

But in terms of enforcement - unless they come out and drive alongside you in a RIB, they will be measuring SOG with radar gun, video, radar/ais tracks etc.

There aren't huge numbers of places with 6kts of tide and a harbour with 6kts sounds rather unpleasant.

 

[Bouba]

You need to get someone to check your technique. Because I drive various RIBs most weekends, and unless it's dreadfully set up it's not a problem. we bring our painter (aka bow mooring line) in board and slip knot it to lifeline. The line is just short of the boat length so can't chop in the prop. It's tied to the tube lifeline near the helm so very accessible without leaving the helm. You should be able to hold alongside a cleat if you did PB2. So just loop line through or over depending on design. Sorted.

So tell me this...what if you have a small motorboat with a covered helm...and you have to walk outside through the rear doors, then up the side of your boat to the cleat....would you use a 15 foot kill cord ?....what if you had a very large RIB ?...or are people who pass their PB2 only qualified to pilot small ribs to their home dock in calm weather ?

 

[ShinyShoe]

I don't think use of a KC is considered standard in a boat with a low(ish) risk of falling overboard such as boats with stanchions, or raised gunwales. Not saying they never have a KC (I've certainly used sailing club committee boats where this would apply and they have KCs). Some of them are not ideally set up to secure a line - a crew tends to be a useful addition.

If none is available, and no space on a pontoon where I can come alongside rather than bow to - then yes - in a strong blow things can get "fun" - of course that's the one time I am higher risk for swimming.. but im not doing 18kts ...

I've yet to go to any marina, harbour, or sailing club pontoon that my PB2 didn't give me the skills to handle.

If it was my 10m Cabin RIB like you suggest... I'd be making sure I can secure my boat... Without going for a swim and if I do making sure the engine can't mince me.

At least 2 others on this thread have said they don't have a problem doing the same. And I've not seen anyone else agree with your statement for a RIB which is what the case involved.

 

[Bouba]

I don't think use of a KC is considered standard in a boat with a low(ish) risk of falling overboard such as boats with stanchions, or raised gunwales. Not saying they never have a KC (I've certainly used sailing club committee boats where this would apply and they have KCs). Some of them are not ideally set up to secure a line - a crew tends to be a useful addition.

If none is available, and no space on a pontoon where I can come alongside rather than bow to - then yes - in a strong blow things can get "fun" - of course that's the one time I am higher risk for swimming.. but im not doing 18kts ...

I've yet to go to any marina, harbour, or sailing club pontoon that my PB2 didn't give me the skills to handle.

If it was my 10m Cabin RIB like you suggest... I'd be making sure I can secure my boat... Without going for a swim and if I do making sure the engine can't mince me.

At least 2 others on this thread have said they don't have a problem doing the same. And I've not seen anyone else agree with your statement for a RIB which is what the case involved.

What are you saying ?....in a large RIB or enclosed helm, you would leave the engine idling, disconnect the kill cord from your wrist or thigh and then proceed to the side deck to tie up ?

 

[ShinyShoe]

What are you saying ?....in a large RIB or enclosed helm, you would leave the engine idling, disconnect the kill cord from your wrist or thigh and then proceed to the side deck to tie up ?

Not sure there is ANY value in idling
If you can idle. You can stop the engine as idle does nothing.
If you can't stop the engine because you need some forward way on, then that unfortunately is what you need. Be much better to have a crew or someone ashore to take your line.

I can only see it ever being an issue where you need to go bow to the jetty against tide or wind and, have nothing alongside or you physically can not reach from the wheel to alongside.

This does not reflect boat work on an open boat which is where kill cords are expected

 

[Bouba]

Not sure there is ANY value in idling
If you can idle. You can stop the engine as idle does nothing.
If you can't stop the engine because you need some forward way on, then that unfortunately is what you need. Be much better to have a crew or someone ashore to take your line.

I can only see it ever being an issue where you need to go bow to the jetty against tide or wind and, have nothing alongside or you physically can not reach from the wheel to alongside.

This does not reflect boat work on an open boat which is where kill cords are expected

Once you are manning your ropes, you are in the open...regardless if it’s a RIB or fishing boat....while underway wearing a kill cord is essential...but when docking single handed...you may have to remove the kill cord...and it is wiser to keep the engine idling in neutral in case you need to quickly readjust your position.
A small RIB with conviently positioned cleats on a calm day might not be a problem....a larger boat...or even a small open boat with a tiller outboard...might require you to disconnect the kill cord to tie up

 

[ShinyShoe]

Your risk assessment is dodgy as fk. The time your throttle gets bumped your full force rib is now trying to jump the jetty, you are imbalanced and in the water. Alone (coz otherwise someone else was doing your line)

Just turn the key.

I accept a pull start is a pita. But I doubt a pull start is on a boat so big you can't hold on with a hand.

Why can't you hold on to whatever is beside you with your tiller steer engine.

 

[lustyd]

I've spent plenty time on the water. Explain the difference. A Harbour is effectively a boat car park. Mixed users. Mixed risks. All mitigated with reduced speeds. You can't see every water user because of other boats. You can't tell what people on moorings etc are doing.

They are entirely different. Show me a carpark where the cars are 100 yards apart with no markings to guide your direction. People don't generally just wander through moorings like they do in carparks, and if they do they are usually in some kind of craft. Upon seeing someone or something in the water you can turn any which way you please. Stop trying to pretend it's the same thing, it's clearly not. If I turn sharply in a carpark I will almost certainly hit a car - not so in a mooring field.

Does it matter if you are doing 12kts, 15kts or 18kts in a 6kt limit?

From a legal perspective, yes it matters quite a bit. Either they know what speed you were doing compared to the speed limit, or they don't. If you can't measure STW on board and the limit is STW then it might be reasonable to be slightly over the limit if you need to for manoeverability (quite common in wind and/or tide). If you're slightly over and then also have 4-5kt tide then you might well appear to be exceptionally over the limit. The important bit is that you would not be, and any reasonable skipper would accept that you were manoevering in weather.

 

[ylop]

Lustyd - I agree 100%, you will never get a toddler being lifted out of a car seat and darting in front of your tender, you will never meet a swimmer who is more focussed on their phone than the traffic, equally in a car park your wake is not going to bounce scalding tea over an octogenarian, or unbalance someone stepping in a dinghy. Its a totally false equivalence as is saying 3x6 is like 3x20 or 3x30… it doesn’t mean what he was doing was right or not worthy of prosecution, but trying to equate the road and sea is a mistake.

I also agree that the camera evidence becomes a bit dodgy to ascribe specific numbers to, especially as the limit is STW and the camera is fixed to land. Those are issues he could have raised either in defence, or as part of mitigation and appear not to have - so perhaps he accepted that he was actually doing about 18 kts through the water. The magistrates may have got the impression that was flat out - the boat is probably capable of double that - maybe even more.

 

[ShinyShoe]

They are entirely different. Show me a carpark where the cars are 100 yards apart with no markings to guide your direction. People don't generally just wander through moorings like they do in carparks, and if they do they are usually in some kind of craft. Upon seeing someone or something in the water you can turn any which way you please. Stop trying to pretend it's the same thing, it's clearly not. If I turn sharply in a carpark I will almost certainly hit a car - not so in a mooring field.

You are trying to be far too literal. I could add show me a car park that the cars move as I drive past or rotate at the whim of the wind, tide or a passing car.

But the reason a car park doesn't have a 70mph speed limit is the same- the users are vulnerable. There is a risk of those users being in the wrong place at the wrong time

From a legal perspective, ... any reasonable skipper would accept that you were manoevering in weather.

If it was important... He'd have made a case in court. Perhaps the details like not wearing a life jacket and being on his phone were there to help say "nah mate, if you were struggling in the conditions, unless you were on the phone to HMCG you were not paying enough attention"

Lustyd - I agree 100%, you will never get a toddler being lifted out of a car seat and darting in front of your tender, you will never meet a swimmer who is more focussed on their phone than the traffic, equally in a car park your wake is not going to bounce scalding tea over an octogenarian, or unbalance someone stepping in a dinghy. Its a totally false equivalence as is saying 3x6 is like 3x20 or 3x30… it doesn’t mean what he was doing was right or not worthy of prosecution, but trying to equate the road and sea is a mistake.

But your court is likely not sea folk. So you have to help them understand. Because 18kts sounds like it's <20mph which is an OK speed for a Welsh road and look at all the space. So the court needs to understand that this 6kt speed limit is there for a reason and that exceeding it by 3 times is not like doing 22mph in a 20mph street...

The rationale that you don't speed in areas of higher risk to OTHER users remains.

I also agree that the camera evidence becomes a bit dodgy to ascribe specific numbers to, especially as the limit is STW and the camera is fixed to land. Those are issues he could have raised either in defence, or as part of mitigation and appear not to have - so perhaps he accepted that he was actually doing about 18 kts through the water. The magistrates may have got the impression that was flat out - the boat is probably capable of double that - maybe even more.

Or the harbour already compensated for that... And he knows full well he was doing 25kts and so he will take being told it was 18!

Equally if he was not making a single passage but instead rounded a bouy and returned you can take averages etc.

I doubt a 8kts in 6kt limit would stick in court. I'm sure he probably gave some thought to trying to defend it... I'm which case if he felt he wasn't really doing anything like 18kts he might have tried...

The NtM that defines the limit doesn't say it's STW... So it may have been interesting to see what the HM said if challenged in court. If I was the HM I'd say "if you drive on a road do we we say speed over the ground or wind speed..."

 

[ylop]

You are trying to be far too literal. I could add show me a car park that the cars move as I drive past or rotate at the whim of the wind, tide or a passing car.

But the reason a car park doesn't have a 70mph speed limit is the same- the users are vulnerable. There is a risk of those users being in the wrong place at the wrong time

If it was important... He'd have made a case in court. Perhaps the details like not wearing a life jacket and being on his phone were there to help say "nah mate, if you were struggling in the conditions, unless you were on the phone to HMCG you were not paying enough attention"


But your court is likely not sea folk.

Bold assumption. The whole point of magistrates courts is they are local to the offence - difficult to imagine a bench in Cornwall that had no connection to the sea.

So you have to help them understand.

Its either judicial knowledge or it should be evidence led from experts and open to cross examination - the prosecutor is not a witness.

The NtM that defines the limit doesn't say it's STW... So it may have been interesting to see what the HM said if challenged in court. If I was the HM I'd say "if you drive on a road do we we say speed over the ground or wind speed..."

The NTM doesn’t define the law, the legislation and bylaws does which defines speed as Speed Through The Water.

However you seem insistent that it was the worst possible crime and therefore should essentially carry the maximum possible penalty. What penalty would you propose if he is caught this summer maxed out at nearly 40 knots?

 

[ShinyShoe]

He didn't get the worst possible fine. Did he?

If the charge is only speeding... Do I expect if I drive at 110mph on the motorway to tell the madj that they should just slap my wrists and send me on my way because I could have done 150mph in the fog?

Or... ...do I expect that if I drive at 150 in fog I will be charged with dangerous driving instead?

I don't think it would be unreasonable to consider a merchant shipping act rule if that brings a higher punishment.

But maybe my bias lies as the potential vulnerable user of the car park and the harbour...

 

[Pye_End]

Moorings aren't 100 yards apart. Much, much closer. Falmouth is littered with moorings, tenders etc.

A couple of years ago I was on a mooring and a jet ski was treating our line as a slalom (6kn speed limit ho ho ho). He came within a few cm of my boat. If I had been in the water, or just setting out in my dinghy, or another dingy passing astern, there would have been another death.

I wish somebody would start policing the speed in the Medway and the Swale. Glad for Falmouth that the authorities care enough. There are plenty of safer, legal waters to play in - no need to take this increased risk, or be so anti-social.

 

[ylop]

He didn't get the worst possible fine. Did he?

he did - max fine is £1000 for the offence, but he was entitled to 1/3rd off for pleading guilty.

your analogies are getting ever more ridiculous. Nobody had advocated he should have got a slap on the wrist, but its likely he'd have got less for a fine for doing 110 mph on the motorway; certainly combined with the costs order he'd have paid less - and the max fine for speeding on the motorway is £2500 (which has never made sense as its £1000 on other roads).

But maybe my bias lies as the potential vulnerable user of the car park and the harbour...

I'd suggest your bias lies in your inherent assumption, which may or may not be valid, that you will never be on the wrong side of the Harbour Authorities.

 

[fisherman]

I was right in the (tongue in cheek) premise of my OP: there is a very different response to the use of a camera from that often displayed towards road speed cameras.

 

[lustyd]

He came within a few cm of my boat. If I had been in the water, or just setting out in my dinghy, or another dingy passing astern, there would have been another death.

Or perhaps he'd have avoided you, he was clearly in control enough to do a very close pass without hitting or causing any damage.

 

[Stemar]

Or perhaps he'd have avoided you, he was clearly in control enough to do a very close pass without hitting or causing any damage.

If he's ignoring the speed limit and going that close to a boat, I'd guess it was more by good luck than good judgement. I'd throw the book at him just as hard as at the original subject of discussion. It's unseamanlike and dangerous.

Not to mention that being on a jetski is a hanging offence anyway

 

[fisherman]

My neighbour was a fixed wing pilot at Culdrose, and was seconded to the Bahamas to instruct their flyers. He went to visit Amos, his temp OC, who lived on the seashore. He had a large catapult and fired coconuts at any jetski daft enough to come near.