Caught by the scamera

[ShinyShoe]

.if you are coming in to dock...you need to disconnect your kill cord to get up and tie up....otherwise you will possibly kill the engine when going for the mooring rope...and if you need to readjust your position then it’s several steps to regain power...leaving you in a worse position

Almost all of the RYA Powerboat Level 2 course involves close quarters manoeuvres like that. You fail if you remove KC with the engine on.

It is VERY clear that our sport's governing body both on these courses and in places where they use RIBs like Dinghy racing, expect the KC on before the engine is turned on and until it is off. No negotiation.

What worry's me is that the they mention no kill cord in use and not wearing a lifejacket as though it is a criminal offence.

So before it was illegal to drive with a mobile phone, you could still be prosecuted for driving without due care.

The standard by which you are judged when something goes wrong and negligence is claimed is that of the normal boater - who would be wearing both and probably not on a phone at 3x the speed limit. So it might not be criminal. But it may well be a mitigating factor. I'm not sure it's strictly illegal to drive a car from the passenger seat with a plank of wood holding down the accelerator... But I guess it might get mentioned in court if you were!

The fine was £961 and he was charged costs of £2100 - a quirk of the English legal system where you get charged for the inefficiencies of the prosecution! I am assuming he plead guilty. Had CPS been the prosecution authority a guilty plea would have been about £85 costs; a trial would have been about £600-900. Moreover, fixed penalties would be considered before it even got to court.


Only using the CCTV. Presumably that means there is quite a high bar - the precision can’t be great, and the limit is supposed to be speed through water… don’t think it would be difficult to show beyond reasonable doubt that someone was exceeding 6 knots if actually doing 18 though.

I’m not sure that either LJs or Killcord should have been mentioned in court - they aren’t criminal and are clearly trying to present aggravation in the mind of a non-expert audience. That said, I’ve helmed ribs from 3 to 11m and it’s never been essential to remove a kill cord to bring an open rib alongside. A bit of planning and preparation is all you really need - but if the boat is too big for you to manage the helm and the lines without leaving the console when engine is in gear you probably need crew.

And certainly not to be travelling at 18kts!

Whilst I don’t want to see people racing through moorings I’m not convinced that reflects the actual risk/harm.

If we compare to a car... The speed limit in pedestrian area is 20-30mph. A Harbour like this is probably not that different to one of those pedestrianised shopping stteets where various road users (bikes, kids, grannies etc) can cross from one side to the other without kerbs etc and cars are only allowed for access. Speed limit likely 20mph. Now - if a car drove through there on a Sunday afternoon with very few people out shopping, doing 60mph... Would we expect £100 fine because 'people don't often die when people drive like dicks through streets like that'... Because when someone does die... We expect far worse...

The magistrates have no guidelines for marine offences so we should all be conscious that the perception that boaters are wealthy makes us vulnerable to possibly punitive sentencing.

Or the sentencing we usually hear for other offences that we think of as pathetic takes into account the person's earnings and we should all be worried, all the time!

Personally I’d appeal those - but the press reports are so vague it’s not clear if the accused even turned up or just wrote a letter, or if he was legally represented, provided details of his means etc.

They are facts. It may have been stated that they aren't legally required but would represent best practice. It may have been pointed out that if he was knocked overboard at 18kts the boat keeps going unlike a car...

* the victim surcharge is essentially a tax levied on those who are convicted to pay for victims services - even for offences like this where there appears to be no obvious victim and the “complainer” is paid £2100 directly too…

The victim surcharge isn't for the victim of today's crime. It's for the victim of all crimes. People have died in boating "accidents" so there are victims..

The £2100 can pay for their fancy CCTV...

I don't consider not wearing an LJ in Falmouth harbour to be stupid, it's personal choice. I would never wear one within the harbour as I feel safer being able to swim to shore and dive down if a boat comes at me.

You do know you can deflate or remove a LJ. You do know that ejection from a RIB at 18kts means you don't hit the water ready to swim. You do know that diving down below whatever is coming for you and getting low enough in your oilskins etc is very likely not happening.

Completely different. It’s not an offence to do any of those things, and even if he’d been drunk it would only be harbour bylaws used against him.

MCA could prosecute in or out of harbour.

Boats aren’t cars and overreacting to an incident where nobody was even remotely harmed isn’t good and will lead to ever increasing legislation and cost for boaters.

So when I'm travelling at 70mph past my local 30mph speed camera on the road and no-one gets hurt, will you come to court with me..?

Three times the speed limit here is 18kt assuming that’s not an exaggeration and that ride wasn’t with him. Hardly a crazy speed where he couldn’t react by turning either direction or throttling back. Even the Welsh are ok with 20mph!

Welsh cars usually have brakes.
You've obviously never hit a submerged log.
And the speed limit is at least in part there for wake.

RIBs have more wake when slow. At 18kt it would be planing and would have done no damage.

I can assure you, if I stand on a inland water beach waste deep in water and RIB goes past at 6kts I get a bit of wake. If it goes past at 18kts I get MORE wake. The wake is different. But there is significant wake. It may be no more than your ferry at 6kts...

The very definition of planning is that you are riding your own wake. There is wake.

If I was paddle boarding an 18kt rib wake is likely to knock me off (I'm not exactly good at paddle boarding). At 6kts - I might stay "dry". No life harmed. But the law isn't just about life harm it's about dicks on RIBs and JetSkis not ruining it for everyone else.

lol I’ve been below boiling the kettle on my boat before. It’s not a car and it’s not on a road. Have some perspective.
Dame Ellen MacArthur was asleep for a good deal of her solo trips, and she was given an honour!

Did Dame Ellen sleep while in harbour?
That's the point. You can do 18kts in open sea. You make the judgement based on the others around you. In a harbour you can't see everyone

Was there any dialogue with the HM?

I've never known a HM take penalty action for a first offence. Even though the costs are high, I bet they didn't cover all their legal costs (it's not like they just hand a case to the CPS). So speculating - he has been told before, OR, when he was told this time he displayed premium dickery...

But harbour probably resembles the ocean than the A30 so we shouldn't lose our minds if someone only has one hand on the wheel.

He should only have one hand on the wheel, the other should be on the throttle. With no kill cord, this is more like he is driving at 30mph through the local Tesco car park, with cruise control enabled and his feet on the dashboard while talking on his phone.

And your argument seems to be that no-one got hurt because all the old ladies heard his banging tunes and so stayed away...

 

[westernman]

If it's the same case I'm thinking of, he didn't just stray into the lanes in a momentary loss of concentration. That happens all the time, and no one gets prosecuted.

What this chap did was to sail almost the entire length of the TSS going NE in the middle of the SW lane.

Whilst there is no mandatory requirement to monitor the VHF, had he done so he would have heard all the calls from Dover CG and shipping trying to get him to move out of the lane.

My understanding is that it is obligatory to monitor VHF channel 16 while underway.

 

[Bouba]

Almost all of the RYA Powerboat Level 2 course involves close quarters manoeuvres like that. You fail if you remove KC with the engine on.

It is VERY clear that our sport's governing body both on these courses and in places where they use RIBs like Dinghy racing, expect the KC on before the engine is turned on and until it is off. No negotiation.

I think that is an example where the rigidity of the rules and rule makers, show how they fail in the real world. A kill cord that is short enough to be effective will pull out when reaching for the mooring rope, cleat or boat hook....if you stop the engine before securing the boat there is a risk that the situation will deteriorate...for example the boat blowing off the dock..leading to a situation where a person might lean too far over the side to reach something and put themselves at risk.
I appreciate that them is the rules..but following the rules blindly has led to many a sticky end

 

[wonkywinch]

Never had a problem with the kill cord clipped to my leg.

 

[oldbloke]

Being on the phone while driving boat = bad
Not being on the radio while driving boat = bad

 

[lustyd]

Being on the phone while driving boat = bad

Define "driving a boat". Do you include the time when you're down below using a paper chart? Personally I think talking on a phone at the helm is far safer.

 

[lustyd]

A Harbour like this is probably not that different to one of those pedestrianised shopping stteets where various road users (bikes, kids, grannies etc) can cross from one side to the other without kerbs etc and cars are only allowed for access

It's wholly different in every way imaginable. If you can't see that I imagine you've not spent a lot of time on the water.

 

[oldbloke]

Define "driving a boat". Do you include the time when you're down below using a paper chart? Personally I think talking on a phone at the helm is far safer.

Sorry,maybe too much brevity and not enough emoji. My point was that people were being simultaneously lambasted for either doing, or not doing, what is essentially the same thing

 

[[193211]]

Define "driving a boat". Do you include the time when you're down below using a paper chart? Personally I think talking on a phone at the helm is far safer.

Stop it with the false equivalence! As previously stated, being below for a short period while single-handing off shore is not comparable with poor control of a rib driving through a busy harbour.

 

[Bouba]

Not having control of a boat is nothing new...as the wind increases we all start to lose control...until eventually everything is controlled by the conditions....and I certainly could make a case where being three times over the limit is the only way to be in control in certain circumstances. I’m not defending the rib owner...or anyone...but the overriding rule is not to have a collision...he didn’t.
But just to be absolutely clear... I ALWAYS obey the speed limit in confined waters

 

[capnsensible]

Define "driving a boat". Do you include the time when you're down below using a paper chart? Personally I think talking on a phone at the helm is far safer.

When you are helming a high speed vessel, at what speed do you find that dickin about on a mobile phone becomes a bit stupid?

 

[capnsensible]

I think that is an example where the rigidity of the rules and rule makers, show how they fail in the real world. A kill cord that is short enough to be effective will pull out when reaching for the mooring rope, cleat or boat hook....if you stop the engine before securing the boat there is a risk that the situation will deteriorate...for example the boat blowing off the dock..leading to a situation where a person might lean too far over the side to reach something and put themselves at risk.
I appreciate that them is the rules..but following the rules blindly has led to many a sticky end

How come I've never had that problem? Can you tell me how to get things wrong?

 

[Bouba]

How come I've never had that problem? Can you tell me how to get things wrong?

You have long arms

 

[lustyd]

When you are helming a high speed vessel, at what speed do you find that dickin about on a mobile phone becomes a bit stupid?

Personally I find it's more based on conditions than speed. Just playing devil's advocate really though, the thread was a bit thick with virtue signalling and I was a bit bored.

 

[capnsensible]

Personally I find it's more based on conditions than speed. Just playing devil's advocate really though, the thread was a bit thick with virtue signalling and I was a bit bored.

Well it's about poor skippering on a high speed vessel. So when you helm a high speed vessel, at what speed does not concentrating by being on the helm with a phone start to be daft for you? For me, it's as soon as I slip the first line from the dock. For the last few months we've had a zillion dinghy here at Olympic level practising and racing. There's been dozens of so called coaches and safety ribs in and out of the harbour entrance. So many times the helm has been gobbling off on their phone. Bozos who of all people should know better.

I do. So...I do it better.

Even on a flat calm day, high powered vessels, in my opinion, need respect and control. Basic seamanship.

 

[SaltyC]

Good to hear another eejitt has been fined.

I am not a violent man, but wonder if harbour masters would consider arming their vessels with Barrett 50 calibre rifles as it might act as a deterrent?

Very effective on RIBS!

 

[Bouba]

Well it's about poor skippering on a high speed vessel. So when you helm a high speed vessel, at what speed does not concentrating by being on the helm with a phone start to be daft for you? For me, it's as soon as I slip the first line from the dock. For the last few months we've had a zillion dinghy here at Olympic level practising and racing. There's been dozens of so called coaches and safety ribs in and out of the harbour entrance. So many times the helm has been gobbling off on their phone. Bozos who of all people should know better.

I do. So...I do it better.

Even on a flat calm day, high powered vessels, in my opinion, need respect and control. Basic seamanship.

I get that a lot with the Olympic trials etc etc and those darn dinghies.....they hold circular races in front of the harbor entrance and think that I should give way I even got in a row with the Kiwi support boat

 

[Birdseye]

I'm not sure about that. I don't think that any of my posts, for instance, have shown any sympathy for law-breakers of any kind, with the possible exception of those where the law or markings were unclear.

Thats a bit pious John. I would be surprised if you didnt break some law every day. Might be parking or speeding, or something else fairly trivial. We all do it. We dont steal or murder or rape etc because those are real crimes. But if my dog, on a walk in the country, craps in the middle of a patch of stinging nettles, do I pick it up and get badly stung? You guess.

Even our legal system, a crude effort if ever there was one, recognises a difference between say 36 in a 30 limit and 100 in a 30 limit. One is a going through the motions penalty, the other is a something that matters penalty.

 

[johnalison]

Thats a bit pious John. I would be surprised if you didnt break some law every day. Might be parking or speeding, or something else fairly trivial. We all do it. We dont steal or murder or rape etc because those are real crimes. But if my dog, on a walk in the country, craps in the middle of a patch of stinging nettles, do I pick it up and get badly stung? You guess.

Even our legal system, a crude effort if ever there was one, recognises a difference between say 36 in a 30 limit and 100 in a 30 limit. One is a going through the motions penalty, the other is a something that matters penalty.

I can’t remember what point I was replying to but I’m fairly sure that I don’t break any laws every day, and if I have done so it was inadvertently, such as the time last year when I drove in a bus lane on a dark wet night with the sign partly obscured. I have never had a parking or speeding ticket, and since I don’t own a dog I am unlikely to leave plastic bags of faeces on or beside footpaths. I doubt if anyone would suggest sending you to prison for slightly exceeding the limit, but 100 in a 30 limit might make me change my mind, and the relative speed is not far removed from the appalling behaviour referred to in the OP that some people seem to wish to excuse, though I am not inviting a direct comparison.

 

[MisterBaxter]

Don't see the problem with this myself. There is a speed limit, for a wide range of good reasons, which comes with a scale of penalties depending on the details of the offence. This guy was going three times the speed limit with other actions compounding the offence, so he got a penalty at the upper end of the scale. What else would you expect?
Very often drivers argue against the enforcement of a law (eg by speed cameras) because they don't want to come out and actually argue against the law. Is there an element of that here?