Buying a UK flagged boat in the EU: issues, advice and Brexit.

[Refueler]

What no one has mentioned is that to keep the boat on the SSR you must have an address in the UK which is a point to consider if you are thinking of becoming a liveaboard. You can always re-register but this can lead to a lot of (annual) beurocracy.

I explained all this in another thread where someone wanted to register to a child.

The item that people miss is that a non resident cannot be on the SSR listing even as a part owner. But you can have this on Part 1 ... strange !

 

[Graham376]

I'm going to Spain soon; hopefully get can residency before 31st of December. Not sure if this will then grant me rights to live freely in the EU or just Spain? I've spoken to British colleagues and they had to renounce their UK passports to get Spanish ones, as Spain, apparently, does not allow dual citizenship.

You're mixing up residency and citizenship. Anyone in an EU State for >3 months has to register their presence so the local authority (in the case of Portugal) give you a certificate valid for 5 years saying you are resident here. This allows unlimited time in the State but still 90/180 in other States. Normally, after 5 years, permanent residence can be applied for if you meet the terms but by then we will be third country citizens so most likely new rules will apply.

Best to pick a country which allows dual residence (there and UK) and has a double taxation agreement with UK. Some States such as Spain insist you matriculate the boat, others don't.

Citizenship is a different ball game, not to be contemplated lightly.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Citizenship is a different ball game, not to be contemplated lightly.

Amen! My wife is a citizen of Hong Kong with a BN(O) passport. It was fairly straightforward (but expensive) for her to gain Permission to Remain (i.e. residency) in the UK. However, parlaying that into UK citizenship was a minefield; one that we got wrong once! She is now a UK citizen, but it took us nearly 10 years and a LOT of money to sort it out. And note that the main problem was a car accident that resulted in a fine and points on her license - it counts as a criminal conviction, and blocks citizenship applications until it expires!

 

[25931]

I explained all this in another thread where someone wanted to register to a child.

The item that people miss is that a non resident cannot be on the SSR listing even as a part owner. But you can have this on Part 1 ... strange !

Not really strange when you consider how much more Part 1 costs

 

[ross84]

God, this all just sounds like a nightmare. I think the dream of owning a boat and living the med for 6 months a year is over. Surly this sorry business is going to disrupt a lot of people's lives who were already doing this?

This is assuming we no deal exit, rather than agreeing some sort of Norway like deal?

 

[ross84]

PS if I marry an EU Citizen as a third country status Brit, do I then get to live/travel in the Schengen?

 

[25931]

God, this all just sounds like a nightmare. I think the dream of owning a boat and living the med for 6 months a year is over. Surly this sorry business is going to disrupt a lot of people's lives who were already doing this?

This is assuming we no deal exit, rather than agreeing some sort of Norway like deal?

Nothing to do with it, most of the rules haven't changed much for years, it's only the vat status that has made people aware that what they have been doing wrongly has been tolerated and in countries such as Portugal with strong ties to England going back for more than 600 years will in all probability still be overlooked. Don't forget that England has been at war with most other countries at one time or another.

 

[ross84]

Not sure what you mean.

 

[Refueler]

God, this all just sounds like a nightmare. I think the dream of owning a boat and living the med for 6 months a year is over. Surly this sorry business is going to disrupt a lot of people's lives who were already doing this?

This is assuming we no deal exit, rather than agreeing some sort of Norway like deal?

I think you are over-imagining the whole thing - maybe partly driven by some of the rubbish spouted on some threads about status after Dec 31st.

 

[Graham376]

PS if I marry an EU Citizen as a third country status Brit, do I then get to live/travel in the Schengen?

No, your status won't change,residence rules + 90/180 elsewhere still apply.

I have the right to citizenship here my wife being a citizen but I don't want to go down that route.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Nothing to do with it, most of the rules haven't changed much for years, it's only the vat status that has made people aware that what they have been doing wrongly has been tolerated.

Not sure what you mean here .... there was no 90/180 rule for Brits in the Schengen area before Brexit so you could travel from country to country as a tourist indefinitely - as long as you had your UK passport with you and your EHIC you could be a permanent tourist in Europe - even get a job if you like - in any country.

As of 01.01.2021 it looks like that all ends, and Brits will have to follow the same rules as all other third country nationals - tourist only, 90 days in 180, not allowed to work and must be able to sustain themselves without recourse to any social security support from the EU.

Those are the consequences of ending free movement of people.

The VAT issues are the consequences of ending free movement of goods by leaving the customs union/single market.

I used to work in Germany as a UK citizen ... I built a house, raised my kids, they got schooling and healthcare and the only requirement was to register my presence and address with the local authority and the tax office - they had no opportunity to say "computer says no" because I was from an EU member country. Similarly, I got my job by applying for it - no visas or permits, just an application, interview and start work. When I wanted to travel or go on holiday, just a passport was needed and I could go.

It all worked fine for 20 years .... then as the first Brexit deadline approached, my employer informed me that I would no longer be employable due to my nationality and the barriers started to be put up as German employers began to send e-mails and letters to Brits informing them that they would no longer be employable and we needed to sort out work visas and residency. To do this we needed all sorts of income statements, proof of employment, and the possibility that our children - who were between study and jobs - may not be granted residency due to income limits. So the whole family went for German Citizenship, it was granted, and the whole mess and stress just went away overnight.

I now carry on as before but as a German citizen instead of a UK one.

Make no mistake, being in europe as a third country citizen instead of an EU citizen is a whole different kettle of fish.

EDIT: This is all very specific to your personal and family circumstances - rich/poor, married/single, dependents/no dependents, secure job/no job/retired .... your mileage will also vary based on which EU country you are in.

 

[Graham376]

I think you are over-imagining the whole thing - maybe partly driven by some of the rubbish spouted on some threads about status after Dec 31st.

+1

The basic rules are fairly simple but different countries have their own interpretation as well. Everything has been know for a long time and I've no sympathy for those who've been burying their heads until now.

 

[Graham376]

Amen! My wife is a citizen of Hong Kong with a BN(O) passport. It was fairly straightforward (but expensive) for her to gain Permission to Remain (i.e. residency) in the UK. However, parlaying that into UK citizenship was a minefield; one that we got wrong once! She is now a UK citizen, but it took us nearly 10 years and a LOT of money to sort it out. And note that the main problem was a car accident that resulted in a fine and points on her license - it counts as a criminal conviction, and blocks citizenship applications until it expires!

My wife arrived in UK with me in 1970, passport stamped "British husband multiple entry ". It was then just a case of visiting local Commissioner of Oaths for half an hour to swear Oath of Allegiance and she became UK citizen. 50 years next month, I'm still waiting for parole

 

[AntarcticPilot]

My wife arrived in UK with me in 1970, passport stamped "British husband multiple entry ". It was then just a case of visiting local Commissioner of Oaths for half an hour to swear Oath of Allegiance and she became UK citizen. 50 years next month, I'm still waiting for parole

You wouldn't get away with that these days!

 

[Baggywrinkle]

+1

The basic rules are fairly simple but different countries have their own interpretation as well. Everything has been know for a long time and I've no sympathy for those who've been burying their heads until now.

In some cases it is forced on you. For example ... until very recently there was no process for a Brit to get an residence permit or a work visa in Germany while the UK was still an EU member and the future relationship with the EU was unknown - it just wasn't possible, you could go to the Landratsamt and ask for one 'till you were blue in the face, but the computer just said you didn't need one and there was no process in place because the UK/EU relationship hadn't been finalised - stalemate - there was no way to start the process or know in good time whether it was going to be granted or not - particularly a problem for those on low or no income. It was a waiting game, just watching the clock tick closer to the Brexit deadline. Citizenship could be started immediately so we went down that route because we fulfilled the "time in Germany" rule - for those that have arrived in the last 5 years they are in limbo.

Like I said in my previous post, it is so dependent on your personal circumstances, what can be easy for one, can be a totally different story for someone else - the lack of empathy, the assumption it is easy for everyone is egocentric to say the least.

There are thousands of people with stories like this one ....



#InLimboVoices

My wife arrived in UK with me in 1970, passport stamped "British husband multiple entry ". It was then just a case of visiting local Commissioner of Oaths for half an hour to swear Oath of Allegiance and she became UK citizen. 50 years next month, I'm still waiting for parole

Congratulations on 50 years with no parole! ? ... if only it was that easy today since the introduction of the current hostile immigration environment.

 

[25931]

Not sure what you mean here .... there was no 90/180 rule for Brits in the Schengen area before Brexit so you could travel from country to country as a tourist indefinitely - as long as you had your UK passport with you and your EHIC you could be a permanent tourist in Europe - even get a job if you like - in any country.

As of 01.01.2021 it looks like that all ends, and Brits will have to follow the same rules as all other third country nationals - tourist only, 90 days in 180, not allowed to work and must be able to sustain themselves without recourse to any social security support from the EU.

Those are the consequences of ending free movement of people.

The VAT issues are the consequences of ending free movement of goods by leaving the customs union/single market.

I used to work in Germany as a UK citizen ... I built a house, raised my kids, they got schooling and healthcare and the only requirement was to register my presence and address with the local authority and the tax office - they had no opportunity to say "computer says no" because I was from an EU member country. Similarly, I got my job by applying for it - no visas or permits, just an application, interview and start work. When I wanted to travel or go on holiday, just a passport was needed and I could go.

It all worked fine for 20 years .... then as the first Brexit deadline approached, my employer informed me that I would no longer be employable due to my nationality and the barriers started to be put up as German employers began to send e-mails and letters to Brits informing them that they would no longer be employable and we needed to sort out work visas and residency. To do this we needed all sorts of income statements, proof of employment, and the possibility that our children - who were between study and jobs - may not be granted residency due to income limits. So the whole family went for German Citizenship, it was granted, and the whole mess and stress just went away overnight.

I now carry on as before but as a German citizen instead of a UK one.

Make no mistake, being in europe as a third country citizen instead of an EU citizen is a whole different kettle of fish.

EDIT: This is all very specific to your personal and family circumstances - rich/poor, married/single, dependents/no dependents, secure job/no job/retired .... your mileage will also vary based on which EU country you are in.

I agree with all that you say, I was referring to the case in point i.e. buying a boat in France and becoming a part-time liveaboard which is rather different from fixing residence and working iand raising a family in Germany.

 

[Graham376]

Like I said in my previous post, it is so dependent on your personal circumstances, what can be easy for one, can be a totally different story for someone else - the lack of empathy, the assumption it is easy for everyone is egocentric to say the least.

Most who post here are looking to retire and sail, those seeking to work are in a minority and that's a different and harder subject as far as officialdom is concerned.

Yes, personal circumstances do vary but we get weekly posts with wannabe liveaboards who haven't bothered researching just what Brexit means and how restrictive it will be unless resident in EU, despite all the publicity for the last few years. I've met three people in the last week with boats here who still haven't bothered to start the residence process, another one who's been here 30 years under the radar, thinking nothing will change, says no need for residence. Unless there's a last minute deal, which I can't see happening, some could be in for a nasty shock. Next year will be too late to plan for those who want to spend their retirement in the Med without many restrictions

 

[Refueler]

My wife arrived in UK with me in 1970, passport stamped "British husband multiple entry ". It was then just a case of visiting local Commissioner of Oaths for half an hour to swear Oath of Allegiance and she became UK citizen. 50 years next month, I'm still waiting for parole

2004 ... I approached Brit Consul about my Russian Wife to be granted UK Passport etc.

1. She would be required to have first a visitors Visa, regardless of my Brit status.
2. I would need to return to UK full time - reverting to full UK Tax status.
3. She would then apply for temp residence visa.
4. Then for temp work visa.
5. She would only be granted UK Passport and Residence / Citizenship once we have both completed 5 years qualifying period of actual living in UK.

Needless to say - I'll consider it later if really needed !.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Most who post here are looking to retire and sail, those seeking to work are in a minority and that's a different and harder subject as far as officialdom is concerned.

Yes, personal circumstances do vary but we get weekly posts with wannabe liveaboards who haven't bothered researching just what Brexit means and how restrictive it will be unless resident in EU, despite all the publicity for the last few years. I've met three people in the last week with boats here who still haven't bothered to start the residence process, another one who's been here 30 years under the radar, thinking nothing will change, says no need for residence. Unless there's a last minute deal, which I can't see happening, some could be in for a nasty shock. Next year will be too late to plan for those who want to spend their retirement in the Med without many restrictions

I agree with you, Brits wanting to cruise Europe in retirement really need to get on sailing sites full of Aussies and Americans to get an idea of what it will entail. Like Noonsite ....

Mediterranean Bound? Some Useful Noonsite Articles and Links | Noonsite

 

[greeny]

Who was Bobby McGee?

Quote = "Me and Bobby McGee" has become a rock classic over the years. Co-written by Kris Kristofferson and Fred Foster, this iconic song was first conceptualized with just a title -- inspired by a real person.
Foster had a bit of a crush on Barbara "Bobbie" McKee who was a secretary on Nashville's music row. When he pitched the title to Kristofferson, he misheard the name as "Me and Bobby McGee," and the name stuck." Google tells all.