EU rules on UK boats and the 18 months - latest

[Tranona]

That was not my reading of the question posted by the OP.

@alex23299 is trying to clarify if passing the 12 nm limit by say 2 chains for an undisclosed length of time resets the 'out of Schengen/EU clock'. I was suggesting by that having your passport stamped plus some invoices proving the vessel was in a non-Schengen/EU nation this would be better evidence should a Schengen/EU nation wish to apply VAT to a UK vessel after 18 months, than a Ships Log/Chart plotter Screenshot/GPS or AIS plot. I am fully aware that AIS was developed to 'monitor the movement of shipping'.

I can't understand why the RYA Legal team are 'dithering', @alex23299 's word not mine, over this. I assume that they are lawyers and understand the weight of documentary evidence, especially when part of that documentary evidence is a passport; one of the oldest legal documents on the planet. They should be monitoring the situation in the EU as a service to their members or are they leaving that to other organisations, e.g. the Cruising Association?

Visiting a non EU port (not Schengen - that is for people NOT boats) would certainly seem better evidence than just going outside territorial waters - but you have now first hand accounts (post#14) that this is acceptable in some states. A passport is irrelevant in this situation. The key evidence required is related to the boat - that is it has to be owned by a non EU RESIDENT and be registered in a non EU state. To be eligible for TA the owner needs to apply on entry from outside the EU and leave within 18 months. There are no restrictions on re-entry at a later date, BUT there is no prescription about what happens between clearing out and re-entering as this is left to the individual state to manage through its state systems. Hence to variations.

I really don't see why you have so much difficulty in accepting that there is not a definitive answer to the question and that it is unreasonable to expect the RYA to somehow magically create one. You are probably right that the CA has more knowledge on current practice simply because their membership is more likely to have direct experience. Members can access a wide range of information, particulrly related to issues post Brexit theca.org.uk/public/ratsThe RYA has said on many occasions that its focus is on the UK and it does not have the resources to be up to date with the application of laws in the 27 member states of the EU.

BTW post #20 describes practices in one EU state that not only break both EU and UK law but seem not to be challenged. Make of that what you will.

 

[Sandy]

Try reading post #4, slowly if necessary.

I have. Over the years @Tranona has posted a huge amount of useful information and I take his posts seriously.

Back in the day, @Tranona ticked me off some time ago for mentioning it too often, I was involved with stuff that was complex, national, international (EU and worldwide), technical and legal, hence apply that weltanschauung to some of my posts here. I read he has posted later in the thread about passports, EU and Schengen (I mentioned Schengen to cover my arse as my wife is the technical accountant and more up to date on VAT than me), but hear me out.

The legal system and governments take great interest in paper work as it can be cross checked. It can drop you in the 'do do' or get you out of it. Hearsay, while is interesting to hear/read is just that, hearsay.

Actually, @Tranona and I are not that far apart, recall post #11 where I mentioned either being legal, sailing close to the wind or going to jail.

What I am suggesting to the OP is he build a watertight paper trail.

'We checked out of Port A on Day 1 checked and into Port B in the non EU nation on Day D+1 and spent some time there. Here is my evidence: stamped passports (they really are worth there weight in gold); invoices from marinas; fuel; food and wine. On Day D+3 we departed from Port B and arrived back at Port A 48 hours later where you stamped us all back into the EU.' The not going to jail outcome.

Or
​

'We checked out of Port A on Day 1 and went out to sea and faffed about for a bit then came back. Here is my evidence: a GPX passage track (we can all edit a GPX file) and my log book (remember what Donald Crowhurst did with both his log book and celestial navigation calculations). I don't have any third party to collaborate my evidence.' The sailing close the wind outcome.

I submit to the court of the YBW Forum that a paper trail is far stronger evidence.

Just a couple of points that need clarification. What I am frustrated with is the OP stating that the RYA Legal Department were not clearer after a member asked for advice and guidance, and to reply to @dunedin I don't have a personal issue with the RYA just no longer a Gold Member - I choose to spend my beer tokens elsewhere.

 

[dunedin]

…..

Just a couple of points that need clarification. What I am frustrated with is the OP stating that the RYA Legal Department were not clearer after a member asked for advice and guidance, and to reply to @dunedin I don't have a personal issue with the RYA just no longer a Gold Member - I choose to spend my beer tokens elsewhere.

So pray how do you think the RYA could have given a clearer answer to the OP about a matter that appears not to have any definitive legal answer, and in practice is up to the discretion of the local officials? Do tell?
It is very easy to criticise others for not giving the answer you want. Rather more difficult to give a definitive answer to something which does not have any definitive legal answer - other than it seems to work in some instances but not accepted by others.

 

[Sandy]

So pray how do you think the RYA could have given a clearer answer to the OP about a matter that appears not to have any definitive legal answer, and in practice is up to the discretion of the local officials? Do tell?
It is very easy to criticise others for not giving the answer you want. Rather more difficult to give a definitive answer to something which does not have any definitive legal answer - other than it seems to work in some instances but not accepted by others.

Today is my birthday. Last Wednesday I launched for the 2025 season.

I think we are all grown up and can make our own minds up.

I'm going sailing and everybody can ponder this question further.

 

[Blue Seas]

Today is my birthday. Last Wednesday I launched for the 2025 season.

I think we are all grown up and can make our own minds up.

I'm going sailing and everybody can ponder this question further.

Lovely day, enjoy your sail. See you in 17 months & 29 days.

 

[Tranona]

This berthoninternational.com/about-berthon-international/berthon-publications/yacht-market-report/the-other-side-of-brexit-vat-customs/ originally posted by Irish Rover on a related thread explains the operation of TA in detail - and reflects much of what has been said about it here. The section on UK RGR is out of date as it was written before the 3 year rule was abolished.

 

[alex23299]

You clearly have a personal issue with the RYA.
They are not "dithering" but have simply indicated (correctly) that they cannot give a definitive response as to whether going 12m offshore will work - for the reasons indeed that you yourself have given, as well as Tranona, I and others. There appears to be no hard and fast EU legal ruling, and it depends on local interpretation of the rules by the officials in the location and on the day. And a boat owner arguing that they are right and the official is wrong, as you and others have said, rarely works.
For the same reasons, I don't think you would get anything more definitive from the CA.

Yes - 'dithering' a bit unfair. Obviously leaving the EU and getting some marina receipts, an entry certificate or whatever (as I've done in Tunisia myself, exiting and re-entering the EU from the Balearics) works... but going 12 miles n.m. offshore, photographing the plotter screen and the date, and then returning to port is clearly cheaper and a lot less hassle.

Any actual info, rather than all this (very sensible) conjecture? Has anyone been checked or challenged over this issue - UK-registered boats and the EU 18 months rule - by customs or other authorities in France, Italy or Spain recently...?
(Yes, the CA gets its advice from RYA).

 

[alex23299]

I have. Over the years @Tranona has posted a huge amount of useful information and I take his posts seriously.

Back in the day, @Tranona ticked me off some time ago for mentioning it too often, I was involved with stuff that was complex, national, international (EU and worldwide), technical and legal, hence apply that weltanschauung to some of my posts here. I read he has posted later in the thread about passports, EU and Schengen (I mentioned Schengen to cover my arse as my wife is the technical accountant and more up to date on VAT than me), but hear me out.

The legal system and governments take great interest in paper work as it can be cross checked. It can drop you in the 'do do' or get you out of it. Hearsay, while is interesting to hear/read is just that, hearsay.

Actually, @Tranona and I are not that far apart, recall post #11 where I mentioned either being legal, sailing close to the wind or going to jail.

What I am suggesting to the OP is he build a watertight paper trail.

'We checked out of Port A on Day 1 checked and into Port B in the non EU nation on Day D+1 and spent some time there. Here is my evidence: stamped passports (they really are worth there weight in gold); invoices from marinas; fuel; food and wine. On Day D+3 we departed from Port B and arrived back at Port A 48 hours later where you stamped us all back into the EU.' The not going to jail outcome.

Or
​

'We checked out of Port A on Day 1 and went out to sea and faffed about for a bit then came back. Here is my evidence: a GPX passage track (we can all edit a GPX file) and my log book (remember what Donald Crowhurst did with both his log book and celestial navigation calculations). I don't have any third party to collaborate my evidence.' The sailing close the wind outcome.

I submit to the court of the YBW Forum that a paper trail is far stronger evidence.

Just a couple of points that need clarification. What I am frustrated with is the OP stating that the RYA Legal Department were not clearer after a member asked for advice and guidance, and to reply to @dunedin I don't have a personal issue with the RYA just no longer a Gold Member - I choose to spend my beer tokens elsewhere.

Yeah, thanks very much, nicely put, I was aware that 'a watertight paper trail' is stronger evidence. I've done that before - Spain to Tunisia and back.

But some aren't able to take the boat to North Africa easily, or in time. - so it would be nice to know if anyone has positive evidence that the plotter + log approach doesn't work. Or that it does.

 

[Tranona]

Yes - 'dithering' a bit unfair. Obviously leaving the EU and getting some marina receipts, an entry certificate or whatever (as I've done in Tunisia myself, exiting and re-entering the EU from the Balearics) works... but going 12 miles n.m. offshore, photographing the plotter screen and the date, and then returning to port is clearly cheaper and a lot less hassle.

Any actual info, rather than all this (very sensible) conjecture? Has anyone been checked or challenged over this issue - UK-registered boats and the EU 18 months rule - by customs or other authorities in France, Italy or Spain recently...?
(Yes, the CA gets its advice from RYA).

Watch the video in post#14. It is clear that some states, particularly Italy are more aggressive in their policing of TA and other VAT related reliefs - not surprising when you consider that the boat in question was worth well over 1m euros. The link in post#26 summarises the received wisdom on the ways in which leaving and entering can be evidenced, but there is nothing AFAIK in EU law that lays down an agreed procedure so it is really left to the individual state and even individual customs offices to decide what is acceptable. Remember that the whole TA process was intended for non EU resident tourists, not to enable people to keep boats permanently in the EU without paying VAT effectively using a "loophole". As the number of people using this loophole will increase it is not surprising that member states will be more active.

With regards to experiences "on the ground", i expect there has been some discussion on the CA forum (I am not a member so don't have access) and no doubt on other forums more focused on international cruisers

 

[benjenbav]

Yeah, thanks very much, nicely put, I was aware that 'a watertight paper trail' is stronger evidence. I've done that before - Spain to Tunisia and back.

But some aren't able to take the boat to North Africa easily, or in time. - so it would be nice to know if anyone has positive evidence that the plotter + log approach doesn't work. Or that it does.

UK boatowners that can’t be bothered to do the hard yards to organise good evidence in order to refresh their TA exemption must look like free cash dispensers to any customs official.

‘Give ‘em a shake down. Probably can’t prove they’re compliant… If they can; move on to the next one.’

 

[stranded]

To be eligible for TA the owner needs to apply on entry.

When we visit we just check in - usually at Brest douanes. They note our details and stamp our passports. They may or may not ask to see the boat’s registration document - though once when I had left it on board they just shrugged and said never mind.

There has never been any mention of TA or whether the boat will leave with us when our time is up. Until now (post-Brexit) it always has, but from this summer we will be keeping the boat in Atlantic France indefinitely.

To your knowledge, is there an additional TA process we have to go through, or will it be sufficient to notify the douanes of our intentions?

 

[doug748]

I've never heard a straight answer from any legal question I've asked the RYA! Note: I am no longer a member......

Some areas are tricky to explain with total clarity. Recently I asked a few direct questions to try and sort out some on the vague areas of law concerning VAT, imported boats and certification. They made an effort but the replies were no more helpful than many on this forum.

I left one question till last;

'Given that the legislation is vague, shrouded in conjecture and absurd when compared for the importation rules for cars and other vehicles.
Will the RYA (as the national body representing Yachtsmen) be mounting a campaign to have these anomalies corrected? '

It was ignored. I could have asked a similar one about the RYA stance on Studland Bay. All we can do is depart and tell them why.

.

 

[alex23299]

UK boatowners that can’t be bothered to do the hard yards to organise good evidence in order to refresh their TA exemption must look like free cash dispensers to any customs official.

‘Give ‘em a shake down. Probably can’t prove they’re compliant… If they can; move on to the next one.’

As I said - this is just conjecture. And there's no evidence - so far - that any customs official has behaved like this.
( 'Can't be bothered to do the hard yards'? - if you want to be rude rather than helpful, Elon Musk has a site for you.)

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Maybe being “vague” is best, as it allows flexibility.

From another perspective I do not want the RYA working on areas like import, export of yachts. There are more pressing needs that impact all of UK coastal sailing.

 

[benjenbav]

As I said - this is just conjecture. And there's no evidence - so far - that any customs official has behaved like this.
( 'Can't be bothered to do the hard yards'? - if you want to be rude rather than helpful, Elon Musk has a site for you.)

I have no desire to cause offence either generically or individually.

The use of TA to allow UK boatowners to keep their pleasure vessels permanently in EU (subject to moving them out of EU once every 18 months) is what one might call a loophole.

It might be expected that officialdom would police that loophole vigorously particularly when it is taken into account that:

1. Boats are expensive units. It isn’t necessary to catch many at 20% a go to make it worthwhile bothering.

2. Especially when every European country is going to have to find more money to sustain its position in the new world order.

3. And when the only folk who are upset by having their boats arrested in such circumstances are foreign nationals who can’t down-vote your own political lords and masters.

Absent these factors I’m sure customs would happily take a glance at a plotter log and move on.

In the present-day world I think they will want ever more solid proof and that they will make boat owners work quite hard to come within the strict boundaries of the loophole.

But, that’s just my opinion. Everyone should feel free to ignore it.

 

[Tranona]

When we visit we just check in - usually at Brest douanes. They note our details and stamp our passports. They may or may not ask to see the boat’s registration document - though once when I had left it on board they just shrugged and said never mind.

There has never been any mention of TA or whether the boat will leave with us when our time is up. Until now (post-Brexit) it always has, but from this summer we will be keeping the boat in Atlantic France indefinitely.

To your knowledge, is there an additional TA process we have to go through, or will it be sufficient to notify the douanes of our intentions?

The "application" can take many forms - as explained in the Berthon link earlier. As many have said, there is not an EU wide formal procedure with probably most states being fairly relaxed and just relying on the "physical presence" - that is as a non resident you have checked your boat into the EU. Others where there is a lot of activity related to non VAT paid boats such as Italy will have more formal procedures. The key thing about TA is the boat is not subject to VAT while it is in use in the EU but cannot be sold without paying VAT based on when the boat entered. For the vast majority of visitors this is irrelevant but for those who use TA to keep their boat for extended periods in the EU ensuring they comply with the rules is important.

 

[IamDiscoDad]

This berthoninternational.com/about-berthon-international/berthon-publications/yacht-market-report/the-other-side-of-brexit-vat-customs/ originally posted by Irish Rover on a related thread explains the operation of TA in detail - and reflects much of what has been said about it here. The section on UK RGR is out of date as it was written before the 3 year rule was abolished.

Very useful. Looking forward to our boat being delivered in June to Gib. Will then use TA in the med initially.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

As someone who used this "loophole" for many years, it exists to allow boats, like cars, to travel between customs areas without paying import duty or VAT. It makes perfect sense for cruisers and has been in existence as long as I can remember and it's pretty much a global thing. I have imported a boat to the EU during Croatia's accession to the EU, and recently purchased another boat that was also imported to the EU at that time, but under different rules.

Post-Brexit, the number of yachts in the Med, that are owned and used by non-EU nationals has increased substantially as all UK flagged boats owned by UK residents are now eligible to use TA - I say eligible because if they are EU VAT paid then they don't need TA.

My boat is EU-VAT paid, I'm a German resident, I have German/British citizenship, and that pesky red ensign has caused me no end of grief as I no longer fit the norm for UK registered boats. Unfortunately, the "authorities" now look at a UK flagged boat and assume TA and no EU-Vat paid - then it gets difficult if you are EU resident.

For UK residents, if built in the EU, boats need to be exported first before they can re-enter the EU under TA - if brought in from elsewhere, they can enter under TA without issue.

Looking to the future, this has created one of the very few Brexit benefits for UK residents I have experienced. The ability to buy VAT free boats and keep them in one of the best cruising grounds in the world - assuming you can afford it, and assuming you do it by the book. Most EU charter companies also dispose of VAT unpaid boats which a UK resident can buy, export, and then re-enter under TA. Done that too, the export took about 6 hours in total, the re-entry took a morning.

Of course nothing comes for free, and the downside is that UK residents now need to get used to the "Schengen Shuffle" if they want to spend significant time aboard their shiny VAT free boats. For those that just use their boats for short holidays, this is not an issue, but it affects long term cruisers far more.

 

[oldbloke]

I have no idea whether this has any relevance to the OP's beef with the RYA but.. Over the decades have had a couple of dealings with the RYA legal department on matter concerning in.and sailing clubs. On both occasions they were approachable and helpful but very reluctant to give definitive opinion and certainly very reluctant to get involved in any legal proceedings. Their unofficial explanation was that whilst we might win our case against officialdom, if we didn't then there would be case law which would affect all sailing clubs for ever. And even if we did win, the matter having been highlighted then officialdom might well change the rules.