Buying a boat in Norway... Looking for a surveyor -

[dunedin]

Looking at boats on Apollo Duck. Most of them look older and more beaten up than ones I am viewing in Scandinavia. Surly they don’t meet RCD or UKCA regs or have had their perfectly good engines ripped out and replaced with brand new more environmentally destructive ‘environmentally friendly’ engines?

Don’t start trying to apply logic, it will just get too depressing.

But as others have said, boats already in the UK and staying here are fine, ditto boats in the EU and staying there.

But we have just added lots of bureaucratic idiocies by narrowing our horizons, so the pools of free circulation of boats are smaller.
And we have always had world class bureaucrats here - indeed many of the ex-EU rules were invented here

 

[mrming]

Has anyone actually head of or know of a case of an import that has attracted HMRC or Trading standards RCD grief .
Talking about a guy sailing into a U.K. marina , or muddy creek berth flying a red with a part 3 SR number freshly stuck on the stern .For the sake of argument either U.K. basic 3 P or the seller’s remaining insurance still running .

Sounds a bit like it’s a U.K. only key board warriors issue .Technically correct but no one’s that should be bothered actually is bothered .

Bit like if you are burgled calling for the cops .They can’t be bothered coming out just issue a crime number to loose you on the system .

Probably broadly correct but one issue is if you did want to later sell the boat in the UK. The buyer will be looking for evidence of UK VAT paid, partially because said keyboard warriors have made a big deal about it on the internet.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Has anyone actually head of or know of a case of an import that has attracted HMRC or Trading standards RCD grief .
Talking about a guy sailing into a U.K. marina , or muddy creek berth flying a red with a part 3 SR number freshly stuck on the stern .For the sake of argument either U.K. basic 3 P or the seller’s remaining insurance still running .

Sounds a bit like it’s a U.K. only key board warriors issue .Technically correct but no one’s that should be bothered actually is bothered .

Bit like if you are burgled calling for the cops .They can’t be bothered coming out just issue a crime number to loose you on the system .

As pretty much every inch of the UK coastline is covered by radar run by official bodies (e.g. VTS), the chances of getting in without being "on the radar" (sorry!) are pretty slim. All the short crossings are being monitored for illegal immigrants. Further, unless you anchor up a lonely creek, places like harbours and/or marinas are also required to be on the lookout for illegal entries (you'll see inconspicuous notices at most places)

 

[Portofino]

As pretty much every inch of the UK coastline is covered by radar run by official bodies (e.g. VTS), the chances of getting in without being "on the radar" (sorry!) are pretty slim. All the short crossings are being monitored for illegal immigrants. Further, unless you anchor up a lonely creek, places like harbours and/or marinas are also required to be on the lookout for illegal entries (you'll see inconspicuous notices at most places)

Again in theory.
But there must be 1000 of crossings form PVT small boats that simply just enter a marina / creek .
Remember this has a SSR number and Eng mother tongued ( White male - if that’s the correct terminology in theses woke days ? ) crew .

Bit like car travel in / out , ferry or tunnel they don’t look into every boot or strip every vehicle.

In fact a well reputed marina say like one in Poole Harbour is probably better , least riskier of officialdom snooping .Just sail in on a busy Saturday and disappear amid the 1000 s of boat movements.

 

[Portofino]

Probably broadly correct but one issue is if you did want to later sell the boat in the UK. The buyer will be looking for evidence of UK VAT paid, partially because said keyboard warriors have made a big deal about it on the internet.

If it’s an old one beyond a certain date or under a certain price then who cares ? Who’s asking ?

 

[westernman]

Has anyone actually head of or know of a case of an import that has attracted HMRC or Trading standards RCD grief .
Talking about a guy sailing into a U.K. marina , or muddy creek berth flying a red with a part 3 SR number freshly stuck on the stern .For the sake of argument either U.K. basic 3 P or the seller’s remaining insurance still running .

Sounds a bit like it’s a U.K. only key board warriors issue .Technically correct but no one’s that should be bothered actually is bothered .

Bit like if you are burgled calling for the cops .They can’t be bothered coming out just issue a crime number to loose you on the system .

Yes. My boat when it first arrived in the UK.

 

[Wansworth]

Charter a yacht and go sailing with your nearest and dearest,if you actually like it buy a boat in the Uk and go sailing meanwhile your gaining knowledge of what your perfect boat could be and also have a thougher understanding of the rules,who kno

 

[Tranona]

Has anyone actually head of or know of a case of an import that has attracted HMRC or Trading standards RCD grief .
Talking about a guy sailing into a U.K. marina , or muddy creek berth flying a red with a part 3 SR number freshly stuck on the stern .For the sake of argument either U.K. basic 3 P or the seller’s remaining insurance still running .

Sounds a bit like it’s a U.K. only key board warriors issue .Technically correct but no one’s that should be bothered actually is bothered .

Bit like if you are burgled calling for the cops .They can’t be bothered coming out just issue a crime number to loose you on the system .

Yes. In the immediate post 1997 period when the RCD was introduced a number of yachts were impounded while the owners tried to arrange certification. One solution was to certify in Category D which is self certification, but typically this would cause problems selling a boat down the line.

People soon twigged that importing a secondhand boat from outside the EU unless it was built in the EEA was not viable, so doubt in reality there have been many cases - indeed the RYA who offered a certification service dropped it pretty quickly due to lack of demand.

What has changed now of course is EU/EEA boats will now need certification whereas before there was free movement. Add to this, the UK government in its stupidity has removed the exemption for pre 1997 boats (seemingly even if they were UK built). Previously it was on theory viable to bring boats like the OP wants without hassle, although in reality few did because they soon found with low priced boats the costs of actually getting it to the UK killed any cost savings. In a different sector of the market with higher value boats it may still be viable to import even with paying VAT, but certification will kill older boats because as Westerman says engine replacement will be required.

Whether the law is enforced more rigorously only time will tell, but now everybody entering the UK in a pleasure boat has to gain clearance it would be surprising i more attention is not paid to suspect boats. After all one of th big benefits of leaving the EU is the freedom to control our borders and as most is a sea border that is where the control takes place.

 

[Portofino]

Yes. In the immediate post 1997 period when the RCD was introduced a number of yachts were impounded while the owners tried to arrange certification. One solution was to certify in Category D which is self certification, but typically this would cause problems selling a boat down the line.

People soon twigged that importing a secondhand boat from outside the EU unless it was built in the EEA was not viable, so doubt in reality there have been many cases - indeed the RYA who offered a certification service dropped it pretty quickly due to lack of demand.

What has changed now of course is EU/EEA boats will now need certification whereas before there was free movement. Add to this, the UK government in its stupidity has removed the exemption for pre 1997 boats (seemingly even if they were UK built). Previously it was on theory viable to bring boats like the OP wants without hassle, although in reality few did because they soon found with low priced boats the costs of actually getting it to the UK killed any cost savings. In a different sector of the market with higher value boats it may still be viable to import even with paying VAT, but certification will kill older boats because as Westerman says engine replacement will be required.

Whether the law is enforced more rigorously only time will tell, but now everybody entering the UK in a pleasure boat has to gain clearance it would be surprising i more attention is not paid to suspect boats. After all one of th big benefits of leaving the EU is the freedom to control our borders and as most is a sea border that is where the control takes place.

Yes but did they court ( no pun intended) officialdom?
Same with Westermans experience, did he go knocking on there door or did they come tapping on his hull nicely tucked away ?

Sorry for not making that clear.

 

[Tranona]

Yes but did they court ( no pun intended) officialdom?
Same with Westermans experience, did he go knocking on there door or did they come tapping on his hull nicely tucked away ?

Sorry for not making that clear.

The latter. Immediately post 97 there was a lot of activity as the new rules came in. Boats sailing in from the US have always had to clear customs so sneaking in with a big (expensive?) boat is not easy. If it comes by ship it has o clear customs at the port. The sneaking in by sea is clearly more likely to avoid attention, particularly in an "ordinary" boat. Remember that over the last 5 years or so Border Force has been ramped up considerably and since B day so has customs. The last 2 years are not typical in terms of the volume of boats criss crossing the channel and north sea whereas before that with freedom of movement and effectively no checks and it was easier to "hide".

Even before B day and Covid plenty of forum reports of being stopped by Border Force, particularly in the western approaches as they get to try out their new toys

 

[thvoyager]

Sorry to keep this thread going.
but quick key question.

UKCA / RCD certs.

The boat I am viewing and viewed now had a new Volvo Penta 2-40 engine in 1997. It sounds solid.
What is Busy Bob’s cut off date for ‘out dated environmentally destructive’ engines?
I’m wondering if the engine is fine, and sure I have to pay some vat as well as maybe update electrical and add a few more fire extinguishers if it’s still possible.
Here is the boat. An impulsive trip but was good to see and stand on her.

 

[Wansworth]

If your still doubtful see if you can find an official horses mouth to give reliableinfo

 

[thvoyager]

If your still doubtful see if you can find an official horses mouth to give reliableinfo

Yes I will contact RYA on my return and go from there.
Thanks.

 

[jlavery]

Sorry to keep this thread going.
but quick key question.

UKCA / RCD certs.

The boat I am viewing and viewed now had a new Volvo Penta 2-40 engine in 1997. It sounds solid.
What is Busy Bob’s cut off date for ‘out dated environmentally destructive’ engines?
I’m wondering if the engine is fine, and sure I have to pay some vat as well as maybe update electrical and add a few more fire extinguishers if it’s still possible.
Here is the boat. An impulsive trip but was good to see and stand on her.
View attachment 142328

The picture is intriguing. What design/model is she? Don't think you've mentioned that (or I've missed it).

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Sorry to keep this thread going, but quick key question.

UKCA / RCD certs.

The boat I am viewing and viewed now had a new Volvo Penta 2-40 engine in 1997. It sounds solid. What is Busy Bob’s cut off date for ‘out dated environmentally destructive’ engines?

RCD 1 became compulsory in 1998. RCD 2 became compulsory in 2016. The chances that an engine dating from before the first version of RCD came into force is compliant with the latest version is not high. There is no cut-off date. An older engine may be compliant with the latest standards on emissions, noise, vibration and documentation when it was built, or may not.

RCD is also not just about the engine emissions and a few fire extinguishers. Here is a summary of the areas it covers...

Craft identification and builder's plate
Protection from falling overboard and means of reboarding
Visibility from helm position
Owner's manual
Structure
Stability and freeboard
Hull, deck and superstructure openings and integrity
Risk of down flooding, bulkheads, sealed compartments
Liferaft stowage
Anchoring, mooring and towing
Engine identification, emissions, noise, vibration, exposed moving parts, durability, emissions over the expected life, maintenance manual
Fuel supply filling and venting
Electrical systems
Steering and emergency steering
Gas system
Fire protection and fire fighting equipment
Nav lights

So, for example, no CE mark on hatches and portlights? Replace them all. Similar with all fire fighting equipment and nav lights. Volvo did not specify in 1997 how emissions vary over engine life? Scrap it. Boarding ladder not to RCD spec? Get a new one made and fitted. No owner's manual? Better write one for yourself that is sufficient to pass inspection. That's just some of the things that can be changed. If the structure and stability are not compliant with the RCD level commensurate with the use you intend to put the boat to, give up. There's a reason why people very rarely go through this process unless the boat is very special.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Yes I will contact RYA on my return and go from there.

All the information is online, albeit some of the official EU documentation a bit difficult to follow.

 

[thvoyager]

Sorry. EDIT.
Engine was new in 2007.
I was just googling and found an old Ybw thread from 2006 about RCD.

“
These are the main 'exclusions below'
A boat DOES NOT need to comply with the RCD if:-
It was built in the EEA [European Economic Area -- bigger than EU] prior to 16 June 1998
It was in use in the EEA prior to 16 June 1998
It is only visiting the EEA for reasons of tourism or in transit (time scales are undefined)”

That first point still stand?

 

[Refueler]

A lot of good info to go on here, and I appreciate every angle and aspect of it all.

I will definitely get to grip with the technicals and the legals, given that I want to be sailing for the foreseeable.

But with that said, let's say I go Norway, I see the boat, do my due diligence (I am currently binge watching boat survey related videos but know 100% that it is no substitute for decades in the industry - but I am acquiring knowledge), let's say I strike a deal with the owner to give me 14 days (maybe a small deposit paid to hold is normal??) , and then maybe I get a surveyor to do a survey and it comes back clean... so far so good.

Now I decide to get it chartered back and moor it up in the UK for say 6 months, insurance paid and survey of boat was done in August 2021.. Now during which time I am off to Greece or Croatia to work, do an intensive sailing course and work. Come back in Spring and get boat and go sailing (my plan is to live aboard, travel and work in the EU and when needed dip out of the EU for Brexit reasons!

So, getting the boat from Norway to UK initially, there is no reason why I can't just bring it back for a set time? If I don't register the boat or pay vat, or even inform HMRC, what is the issue, without sounding like a petty criminal, no one will know will they..? Just get it moored up and do my thing. I have no allegiance to a corrupt, failing / failed government and the less money they can steal off me the better, there I said it.

If I can save myself £10,000 on a new engine that is not needed and £3000 on VAT and £2000 on iso this and iso that then I am all for it.
This does not mean I don't want a safe vessel for myself and other sea goers. I very much do, but I can't stand bureaucracy and unnecessary protocols. Or is this what sailing is?

Let me tell you a story :

Pal of mine bought a Westerly 33 in Channel Isles ... because of my work commitments - had to travel to Singapore - I could not help him get it back to Falmouth. The boat was well equipped by a seller who had cruised the boat extensively.
He engaged a 'Delivery Skipper' ... who IMHO went OTT on gear my pal had to provide ... refused to sail when weather window was fair - causing unnecessary hotel costs ... when arrived in Falmouth - Delivery Skipper immediately informed Customs and Excise of the boats arrival and location.... without telling my pal.

Marvelous !

 

[thvoyager]

Let me tell you a story :

Pal of mine bought a Westerly 33 in Channel Isles ... because of my work commitments - had to travel to Singapore - I could not help him get it back to Falmouth. The boat was well equipped by a seller who had cruised the boat extensively.
He engaged a 'Delivery Skipper' ... who IMHO went OTT on gear my pal had to provide ... refused to sail when weather window was fair - causing unnecessary hotel costs ... when arrived in Falmouth - Delivery Skipper immediately informed Customs and Excise of the boats arrival and location.... without telling my pal.

Marvelous !

Well that was a bit of a Karen thing to do. I guess they didn’t get on. What was your friend aiming to do? Just give himself some time to sort the legal stuff out etc. What happened to the vessel? And how did he get it all sorted.

 

[doug748]

Yes I will contact RYA on my return and go from there.
Thanks.

In your case you would do well to join, seek out people who have actually imported boats and, above all, don't do anything in a hurry.

Retrospective application of regulations is daft and unjust but we are stuck with it right now. Thousands of used vehicles are imported into the UK every year, some with engines so antiquated they make your Volvo look like an Infinite Probability Drive but there we are.

If you are just starting your boating career, the boat in the picture has all the signs of being a severe baptism.

.