boat brands - prejudice or reality

[geem]

Only if you're making the mistake of comparing the Contessa - which was a competitive cruiser racer built to withstand the rigors of a RORC season when new - to pure cruising boats from the big manufacturers. If you instead compare it to the cruiser racers of the modern era - boats with essentially the same design brief but half a century apart.... Then you see clear evolution. Probably the closest thing available to buy new now to the design brief of the Contessa is the J99. Which despite being somewhat sedate by modern standards is a lot faster than the Contessa, nearly 20% according to IRC, has better accommodation, is easier to sail with non-overlapping jibs and A-sail kites, And is also a boat built to a standard, as evidenced by the price! And it's still a volume production boat, with well over 100 built now.

If you want to compare older boats, in this case 1970s designs, to the modern volume cruising offerings, then you need to pick a boat from that era that was actually volume built to a pure cruising brief. Westerly Conway family maybe?

What would you rather cruise as a family around the South Coast of the UK in 2026, a Conway or the brand new Oceanis 34.1? Or a Hanse 348? Or a Sun Oddesy 350? The new boats will be faster, more comfortable to live on, much bigger galley, better electronics, proper fridges, shore power built in, much easier handling rigs, more comfortable cockpit, bigger heads with shower etc. (To be fair I have no idea if the Conway had a shower or hot water as standard, but we know that the new boats all will)

Claiming that you cannot see progress in design, when you're actually talking about the same design brief then... That's just perverse.

Your own boat, it is fantastic. Honestly, it clearly is, and you're absolutely right to be so proud of it. But it's also not a volume production boat, is it? So saying it's better than the modern volume production boats is also fundamentally missing the point of comparing like with like. The modern equivalent of your boat (because of course the yard didn't make enough money making and selling them) is probably the JPK45FC or maybe a Pegasus etc. High end boats from small semi-bespoke yards. All of which have their niche and are equally desirable and suitable for the role of liveaboard cruiser with all the things you suggested. And all of which cost significantly more than the same sized AWB. As of course did yours when it was new. A good condition JPK45FC is currently on JPK's website for 600,000 Euros. No wonder that most cruising isn't done in that type of boat. And you absolutely could argue that design has moved on from your boat to the newer equivalent boats.

At the end of the day, however much you personally deride the AWB, for the vast majority of people who dream about sailing over the Horizon they are basically the only affordable option. And they are doing the job. People are sailing across oceans in them. People are living their dreams in them. At a fraction of the cost of a new equivalent of your boat.

Fixed that typo. It was never about a Contessa and my tablet would rather write Contessa than Contest

 

[geem]

Ok, yes I can see that does look likely. Point still stands though. The Contest, which is clearly a great boat, also wasn't a high volume production boat of its day, see my point about Geem's Trintella. Compare like with like, same design brief with same design brief, then compare "new to old".

But that's the point I was making. It was a response to the OP that his boat isn't trying to compete with the market for charter boats

 

[geem]

Here we go again.
Regarding Contest Yachts they are very much now in the modern idiom, twin wheels wide stern etc - and all the better for this. Contest Yachts | Building dreams together

Yes they maybe. Just like HR but they aren't selling to the charter market like Ben Bav and Jean

 

[flaming]

But that's the point I was making. It was a response to the OP that his boat isn't trying to compete with the market for charter boats

But you did get somewhat sidetracked into the "new boat bad" stick....

 

[geem]

But you did get somewhat sidetracked into the "new boat bad" stick....

Not really. Just trying to give a balanced view. I firmly believe that their is some fantastic improvements in technology but to assume all of these improvements find their way into every new yacht is nieve. A quality built boat will always stand the test of time. I cheaply built boat will always be cheap. Lagoon is a modern boat builder who turn out some appalling quality boats. Have a look at Parley Revivals latest vid on grp quality. Or their bulkhead issue.

 

[SaltyC]

I sit on the fence! I appreciate the seakindliness of older designs, I appreciate the speed and accommodation of the newer designs.
I do not appreciate the slamming and dental bills to replace displaced fillings of the newer desings in moderate weather . But like the speed in moderate conditions.
As an engineer, I liked glassed in Bulkheads not glued (bonded - they pop).
The Industry now appears driven by the charter market and maxim of most accommodation / sunbathing / deckspace for the price - only need 5 years use then someone elses problem.
Unfirtunately, the likes if HR are having to cut costs and compete, hence twin wheels and flatter hulls, yet quality (& longevity?) Plus comfort is possibly being reduced.
For many this is irrelevant, for some it is. The old saying of horses for courses could never be more relevant.

 

[Dutch01527]

I think (might be wrong; often am) that geem’s reference to a Contessa might have been the result of autocorrect. Geem’s post was in response to Dutch01527 who, I believe, has a Contest 41.

That is correct, my boat is a Contest 41. A long distance cruiser of a similar type to a Halberg Rassy, which is better known. Defiantly not a racer.

To me the discussion is not about new boats vs old. If I had the money I would buy a brand new Contest, Halberg Rassy or similar ect in a heart beat.

The original discussion was about a c.20 year old mass production boat vs a c.35 year old limited production boat given the same c.£100k budget.

Both are valid options with advantages and disadvantages. Both will do the job for 99% of people. People will make different personal choices.

 

[Concerto]

Sorry flaming, but geem does say that higher quality boats are designed for a different market. His description in post #57 of the charter market leading the mass production boats, compared to higher quality boats being created for specific owners who probably intending to do long term cruising. They are different buyers and thankfully everyone is satisfied.

I feel sure that the OP has found most of the comments in the thread useful. Although I have a preference for an older boat, at the time I purchased my Fulmar I could have bought a similar sized brand new AWB, unfortunately there are too many features and construction methods that clash with my experience of sailing over decades. This is not that I am averse to changes in design or materials. In my younger days I sailed twin keeled boat, log keel boat, through a variety of race boats including an extreme boat laid up using kevlar and a number of pure cruising yachts, plus some motorboats. Over the years I have been in many boat building yards, but not a mass production AWB factory. The pressure of the cost saving in AWB yards and some design trends make them less appealing to me, but that does not mean that AWB's do meet many buyers requirements.

 

[potentillaCO32]

Fixed that typo. It was never about a Contessa and my tablet would rather write Contessa than Contest

You tablet has taste.