boat brands - prejudice or reality

[Laser310]

Are they not all epoxy these days?

epoxy is not common in production boats - it's quite expensive.

For example, I think at X-yachts all their boats are now vinylester, except the XP44 which is an epoxy layup, and I imagine the new XR 41 might also be epoxy.

But most X-yachts are built to order.

 

[Baddox]

A different angle…

Yes there is a difference between the bespoke Scandinavian marques and Average White Boats, but there is also a big difference between an older AWB and new one.

We have a 2006 Bavaria, bought on a whim and we love the boat. It has served us well however when we retired I wanted a larger boat. We have toured boat shows since pre-covid are left with the opinion that the newer boats aren’t made as well as our older one. This applies to all AWB brands where lower quality and design is becoming common. Furniture has square corners whereas in the past they were rounded which costs more and be better at sea. Plastic trim is replacing veneered wood which in turn replaced solid edged wood on doors, frames and fittings. Handholds are missing, cabin soles creak, raw edged plywood hides in lockers, etc.

 

[Bobc]

A _real_ difference that I didn't see mentioned is that some of the higher end boats are laid up with vinylester resin, vs polyester resin for the cheaper boats.

Bavarias have all been made using vinylester since the early 90s.

 

[Tranona]

Bavarias have all been made using vinylester since the early 90s.

And with Kevlar in the layup at the bow. Latest models are resin infused. Quality of mouldings is not an issue in the same way as it was 30-50 years ago when they were highly variable both in the quallity of materials, and production methods.

 

[wonkywinch]

Even the comparison with Renault is outdated. They're winning plenty of awards now for the 4 and 5 model EVs eg "Best Value EV" at the Electrifying.com Awards 2026 and "Electric Car of the Year" by TopGear.com.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

One of my friends bought a Sunbeam 37 a few years back that was in excellent condition up in the Baltic. He stuck it on a truck and moved it to Northern Croatia. I sold my old Bavaria 36 from 1999 (I'd had it for 11 years) around the same time and bought a replacement Bavaria 44 Vision for a few grand less than he paid for his Sunbeam .... we met up in Rovinj which was his first time aboard my boat. His experience of AWBs had been modern charter boats which are pretty soulless .... he was very surprised when he got aboard and has now sold the Sunbeam because he realised, after the fact, that a smaller centre cockpit was not the ideal mediterranean boat for him .... he had dreams of "robust" and "seaworthy" and he thought he had "done the right thing" in buying a quality boat that ticked all the boxes and had a sound reputation. It was a very nice, well finished boat, but the fact was it was still 20 years old, the maintenance was the same, the systems on board were the same, it had the disadvantage of less accomodation, a smaller cockpit, poor access to the water, and it couldn't make the same passage times as mine, but cost the same money (ignoring marina fees and other size related costs). He is now looking for a larger well loved AWB after spending a lot of money flirting with the wrong boat for him.

What went wrong? He wasn't honest with himself about what he wanted to do, and maybe he didn't realise what living with and on the boat he chose actually meant in the cruising ground he was in. AWBs are simply good value - you get a lot for your money. They aren't lusted after on forums or in the clubhouse - the question is do you care? They are capable and certainly fit for purpose, but I always knew I wasn't going to head off into the southern Ocean or up to the Arctic, and it wouldn't matter which boat I was in, I don't like being cold and wet ... I did plenty of that sailing the West Coast of Scotland in my childhood. My current boat is easily ARC capable and that is probably the limit of my ambition.

So my advice, be honest with yourself. What features of a boat are going to make sailing more enjoyable for you and your crew? Base your decision on that and that alone .... and don't listen to people on forums who recommend a particular boat - they probably have different circumstances, different usage patterns, different budgets, and maybe value image more or less than you .... no good having all the bragging rights afforded by a quality "blue water" boat when your family won't go near it. For most people, a boat is a compromise, don't get me wrong, if I had the budget for a brand new Oyster 495 I'd have one in a heartbeat, but life isn't like that for most people.

 

[potentillaCO32]

Are they not all epoxy these days?

Way too expensive.

 

[rotrax]

So my advice, be honest with yourself. What features of a boat are going to make sailing more enjoyable for you and your crew? Base your decision on that and that alone .... and don't listen to people on forums who recommend a particular boat - they probably have different circumstances, different usage patterns, different budgets, and maybe value image more or less than you .... no good having all the bragging rights afforded by a quality "blue water" boat when your family won't go near it. For most people, a boat is a compromise, don't get me wrong, if I had the budget for a brand new Oyster 495 I'd have one in a heartbeat, but life isn't like that for most people.

Excellent advice, bang on.

 

[Frogmogman]

One of my friends bought a Sunbeam 37 a few years back that was in excellent condition up in the Baltic. He stuck it on a truck and moved it to Northern Croatia. I sold my old Bavaria 36 from 1999 (I'd had it for 11 years) around the same time and bought a replacement Bavaria 44 Vision for a few grand less than he paid for his Sunbeam .... we met up in Rovinj which was his first time aboard my boat. His experience of AWBs had been modern charter boats which are pretty soulless .... he was very surprised when he got aboard and has now sold the Sunbeam because he realised, after the fact, that a smaller centre cockpit was not the ideal mediterranean boat for him .... he had dreams of "robust" and "seaworthy" and he thought he had "done the right thing" in buying a quality boat that ticked all the boxes and had a sound reputation. It was a very nice, well finished boat, but the fact was it was still 20 years old, the maintenance was the same, the systems on board were the same, it had the disadvantage of less accomodation, a smaller cockpit, poor access to the water, and it couldn't make the same passage times as mine, but cost the same money (ignoring marina fees and other size related costs). He is now looking for a larger well loved AWB after spending a lot of money flirting with the wrong boat for him.

What went wrong? He wasn't honest with himself about what he wanted to do, and maybe he didn't realise what living with and on the boat he chose actually meant in the cruising ground he was in. AWBs are simply good value - you get a lot for your money. They aren't lusted after on forums or in the clubhouse - the question is do you care? They are capable and certainly fit for purpose, but I always knew I wasn't going to head off into the southern Ocean or up to the Arctic, and it wouldn't matter which boat I was in, I don't like being cold and wet ... I did plenty of that sailing the West Coast of Scotland in my childhood. My current boat is easily ARC capable and that is probably the limit of my ambition.

So my advice, be honest with yourself. What features of a boat are going to make sailing more enjoyable for you and your crew? Base your decision on that and that alone .... and don't listen to people on forums who recommend a particular boat - they probably have different circumstances, different usage patterns, different budgets, and maybe value image more or less than you .... no good having all the bragging rights afforded by a quality "blue water" boat when your family won't go near it. For most people, a boat is a compromise, don't get me wrong, if I had the budget for a brand new Oyster 495 I'd have one in a heartbeat, but life isn't like that for most people.

Buying in the Baltic seems like a top tip, regardless of whether the boat is a bespoke Scandinavian exotic or a mundane AWB. My perusal of yacht porn, (or should I say boats-for-sale ads) seems to show that the standard of secondhand boats on offer up there is extremely high. The immaculate 2002 Malo 43 one of my friends bought from Sweden certainly backs this theory up. You could have been excused for thinking she was brand new.

I guess combination of a short season, less UV, and boats wintered ashore (often under cover) add up to nicely looked after yachts.

 

[LittleSister]

No, the reputational differences are not justified, they are just biases . . .

But my biases are one of my few pleasures in life!

. . . maintain an open mind.

This forum would be rather quiet if we all did that!

 

[michael_w]

You have to decide what you want the boat to achieve and be good at. Make a list of what is important and stick to it, That way you'll get a boat suitable for the job in hand with the minimum number of compromises. Beware of rose coloured binoculars!

Once, I ignored my own advice and bought a boat, that within the first afternoon of ownership, I decided I hated it and it was utterly unsuitable for the job I wanted it to do! Fortunatley, some other mug loved the S&S looks.

 

[benjenbav]

One of my friends bought a Sunbeam 37 a few years back that was in excellent condition up in the Baltic. He stuck it on a truck and moved it to Northern Croatia. I sold my old Bavaria 36 from 1999 (I'd had it for 11 years) around the same time and bought a replacement Bavaria 44 Vision for a few grand less than he paid for his Sunbeam .... we met up in Rovinj which was his first time aboard my boat. His experience of AWBs had been modern charter boats which are pretty soulless .... he was very surprised when he got aboard and has now sold the Sunbeam because he realised, after the fact, that a smaller centre cockpit was not the ideal mediterranean boat for him .... he had dreams of "robust" and "seaworthy" and he thought he had "done the right thing" in buying a quality boat that ticked all the boxes and had a sound reputation. It was a very nice, well finished boat, but the fact was it was still 20 years old, the maintenance was the same, the systems on board were the same, it had the disadvantage of less accomodation, a smaller cockpit, poor access to the water, and it couldn't make the same passage times as mine, but cost the same money (ignoring marina fees and other size related costs). He is now looking for a larger well loved AWB after spending a lot of money flirting with the wrong boat for him.

What went wrong? He wasn't honest with himself about what he wanted to do, and maybe he didn't realise what living with and on the boat he chose actually meant in the cruising ground he was in. AWBs are simply good value - you get a lot for your money. They aren't lusted after on forums or in the clubhouse - the question is do you care? They are capable and certainly fit for purpose, but I always knew I wasn't going to head off into the southern Ocean or up to the Arctic, and it wouldn't matter which boat I was in, I don't like being cold and wet ... I did plenty of that sailing the West Coast of Scotland in my childhood. My current boat is easily ARC capable and that is probably the limit of my ambition.

So my advice, be honest with yourself. What features of a boat are going to make sailing more enjoyable for you and your crew? Base your decision on that and that alone .... and don't listen to people on forums who recommend a particular boat - they probably have different circumstances, different usage patterns, different budgets, and maybe value image more or less than you .... no good having all the bragging rights afforded by a quality "blue water" boat when your family won't go near it. For most people, a boat is a compromise, don't get me wrong, if I had the budget for a brand new Oyster 495 I'd have one in a heartbeat, but life isn't like that for most people.

I agree but the badge might be an important factor in a subjective decision.

If pretty much any boat will do the job it might make the OP feel happier to buy a particular brand.

In another life I had clients in the fast food business. There’s endless data to show that folks will simply walk past a no-brand outlet with an otherwise identical offer to the market leader. And many fortunes have been made on the back of this. I imagine the phenomenon is not limited to this sector.

 

[paulbrown22]

You could absolutely make the case that the ballast ratios tell a story, but if you are quantifying "better built" in terms of the layup thickness of the hull, there really isn't much in it at all.

It's not just "thickness" of GRP that might make something "better built" though, it's the whole lamination process, choice of cloths/resins, choice of rib/stringer designs, are bulkheads fully bonded vs. just tabbed in, the hull/deck bonding/joint, etc.