Blue ensign dick'ed

[jac]

Any particular reason why you should be so affronted by the traditions of a club that you have no affiliation with? You then go on to state that you don't give a fig, which is it?. Why don't you go fly what flags you like, and leave others to do the same. Our club, our traditions. The blue ensign is not forced upon anyone.

These look like fairly standard rules on flag use. Some are enshrined in law (i.e. what ensigns may be flown) - others are laid down by regulations - IIRC Burgee and Blue / Defaced at the same time whereas others are simple convention based in practicality - e,g, No ensign flying when it's dark as no bugger can see it and it doubles the number of years it survives. Scruffy ensigns the same - most people polish their boats to make them look smart, replace tired looking covers etc - why would you not replace a knackered ensign and retire the old one to a place of honour amongst the countless trophies you have won!!!!!

And yes we have a blue - first season with it. Got it to signify membership of the club we joined that we're very happy with. ( and also saves us thousands on mooring fees!!!)

 

[Magaz97]

My dear chap, I am not sniggering at all at your expense. Unless you wrote that bit about flag officers and commissioning pennants, in which case, yes, a wry smile may have flitted across my face.

Not written by me....but it is written about the traditions of club to which I belong. Most of the members are quite happy to abide by the 'guidelines'...some are not. But; my dear chap I am pleased that you have a wry smile on this gloomy Monday. Flitting or not. Each to their own eh?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Not written by me....but it is written about the traditions of club to which I belong. Most of the members are quite happy to abide by the 'guidelines'...some are not. But; my dear chap I am pleased that you have a wry smile on this gloomy Monday. Flitting or not. Each to their own eh?

Thank you. In the interests of harmonious co-existence, I have amended my original post to say that I find the rules odd. It was unnecessarily rude to say that they were snobbish. My apologies.

 

[AuntyRinum]

This subject has come up many times over the years and always results in disagreement. Sniggering at ensigns indicates an unconscious sense of superiority:
Quote -
"The counterpart of an inferiority complex, a "superiority complex" is a psychological defense mechanism in which a person's feelings of superiority counter or conceal his or her feelings of inferiority." - Wikipedia

 

[Magaz97]

Thank you. In the interests of harmonious co-existence, I have amended my original post to say that I find the rules odd. It was unnecessarily rude to say that they were snobbish. My apologies.

Many thanks....and I tend to agree that some of the rules are indeed odd. But if we get into oddities at yacht clubs, we could be here all day!

 

[jac]

I have amended my original post to say that I find the rules odd.

AIUI the "rules" were originally naval rules and were specified for example so that ships could tell which division of the fleet the other ship was in and also why the hierarchy of positions was established as it ensures a uniform approach.

Merchant ships aped the navy and again when clubs started drawing up rules the only really starting place was those of the Navy. Add in the fact that the ministry of defence has to authorise clubs to have any ensign other than red and the oddity starts to make sense as the MoD naturally wants to ensure that private vessels don't pretend to be something they are not. ISTR that there was an incident in the 19th Century of a large RYS schooner putting down a rebellion in some colony by sailing in - showing her colours and firing some signalling cannon then landing some crew.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Many thanks....and I tend to agree that some of the rules are indeed odd. But if we get into oddities at yacht clubs, we could be here all day!

Ain't dat de troof?

Merchant ships aped the navy and again when clubs started drawing up rules the only really starting place was those of the Navy. Add in the fact that the ministry of defence has to authorise clubs to have any ensign other than red and the oddity starts to make sense as the MoD naturally wants to ensure that private vessels don't pretend to be something they are not. ISTR that there was an incident in the 19th Century of a large RYS schooner putting down a rebellion in some colony by sailing in - showing her colours and firing some signalling cannon then landing some crew.

i think it's the application of quasi-military rules and titles which I find oddest. Yacht clubs have all sorts of "commodores", but gliding clubs don't have air vice-marshals and hiking clubs don't have generals. Most peculiar. Still, if people want to play, fine, as long as they don't expect everybody else to join in.

I wonder what the rebellion incident was? I thought it might refer to the Anglo-Zanzibar war, which lasted for 38 minutes on 27th August 1896 (and therefore takes the record as the shortest ever war; a remarkable feat for one not involving Italy) but in that case it was a yacht, the Sultan of Zanibar's, which sank, not which did the sinking.

 

[Shakemeister]

The only ensign that really winds me up is the white ensign of the RYS - that ensign belongs on warships, not some exclusive club of self-selected members.

Daft ensigns such as red ones with EU flags in the corner, rainbow flags 'cos you're in the LGBT, Jolly Rogers etc - well, I'd just leave that to the Harbour Master to deal with.

 

[Lakesailor]

I posted a pertinent observation on this matter some 3 years ago http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...-and-have-you-got-one-)&p=3564364#post3564364

 

[prv]

Ensigns have a very practical role on Ariam -

If you should see her out and about flying a red ensign and the forum burgee, that means it's me sailing her.

If she is flying a light-blue ensign defaced with eagle, crown and roundel, and the RAFSA burgee, that means my parents are using the boat instead.

Pete

 

[Woodlouse]

I hope so

I have heard that the coolest flag amongst the group who care about these things is a defaced red. I intend to get a large red from eBay and draw/print an obscure defacement on it, whenever anyone asks what it signifies I shall reply that I can't tell them as it's one of those need-to-know things. Should drive them mad. Any suggestions for the defacement?

I'd go with a big smilie face with the motto 'sh*t happens'.

 

[Serin]

Hello. I have been around on these forums for, maybe, 23 years.....but rarely post these days, after re-registering. Plenty of groundhog threads, I see!

As far as blue ensigns are concerned, it seems to me that people who attribute ideas and attitudes to whole groups of other people on the basis of no, or, at best, extremely limited evidence, reveal far more about themselves than about the people they choose to label.

Why do certain clubs have the right to confer the right to wear "privileged" ensigns? (Is it that word that so inflames some people?) The answer is that they, or their members have been recognised for some specific service. That may be for services to small boat seamanship (e.g. the Cruising Association) or the fact that their members made up the backbone of the coastal defence forces (a very hazardous service) during two world wars (e.g. many of the "Royal" clubs) Or, of course, because they have links with the armed forces or other government services(e.g. RNSA) Naturally, these tend to be old established clubs.

I have often seen the statement "the red duster is good enough for me!", with references to pride in the achievements of the merchant service during the wars. Fair enough, but it wasn't those people who did the deeds. So is it less worthy that the clubs that have been honoured for past services should also take pride in their history?

Each tae their ane, as the auld wife said when she kissed the coo! That's what my granny would have said. It's beyond me why people feel the need to denigrate others who don't see things the same way.

 

[T_C]

Was intrigued yesterday, looking to leave Blagdons boatyard at Plymouth, to see the 21,500 tons bulk of HMS Ocean - Britain's biggest warship - sliding past heading upriver, with four tugs and a Pilots' launch in attendence, and a big Police boat rushing about ahead like a yellow/black collie dog.

She'd just commenced her swing to starboard to round the Rubble Bank when a yacht darted out across her bows, between the Police boat and Ocean's bows. The 'Five blasts' on her horn seemed to awaken Plymouth as far as Plympton....

And I swear I could hear Commanding Officer Captain Timothy Henry RN's own blast turn the Hamoaze air blue!

The little yacht was, of course, wearing a blue defaced ensign.

Saw this whole thing as we waited off Mashfords yard for Ocean to pass through so that we could cut in astern of her and cut the corner rather than going all the way around West Mud.
I know the boat concerned and, defaced blue or not, the skipper is a member of the RNSA. Also a rather senior committee member of one of the near by yacht clubs so we figured Ocean was giving him a friendly "five toot salute"! ;-)

 

[JumbleDuck]

I have often seen the statement "the red duster is good enough for me!", with references to pride in the achievements of the merchant service during the wars. Fair enough, but it wasn't those people who did the deeds.

It wasn't current members of the blue ensign clubs what did their derring-do either, unless they are jolly old.

Note: I still don't really care what ensigns people fly, though i was quite glad to see that La Malouine has a Scottish merchant flag now that she is based in Dumfries.

 

[Colvic Watson]

I love this thread! I think it's brilliant that some people can fly special flags and that some can't, it's so wonderfully British. I don't sneer or carp or belittle anyone's choice of ensign and I love that someone said the harbourmaster would sort me out for flying an incorrect ensign - one chap even suggested a prosecution was a possibility. Since the thread started I've bought two new ones off ebay, this is my latest

And I love that it's legal to fly it, apparently the 'old' ensigns weren't retired when the good-old-red-duster was brought in. I also secretly hope that it is a tiny bit illegal. I did fly an undefaced blue for a couple of years to see what it felt like but I kept getting knowing looks and the occasional wink from gentlemen of a certain age; I explained that I'd been a Chief Petty Officer in the school CCF and that we all serve our country, in my case by defending the school from soviet attack using a Lee Enfield .303 and some blank drill rounds. I baulk at flying the white ensign, mainly because it seems so white captains hat and matching anchor motif scarf.

I hope that anyone who is offended by my choice of ensign will feel free to come aboard and berate me for it, I shall offer them a slug of scotch to placate them and change the flag to the pink pirate flag - which the children prefer anyway.

 

[BrianH]

I posted a pertinent observation on this matter some 3 years ago http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...-and-have-you-got-one-)&p=3564364#post3564364

I notice that in the same thread I wrote:

As a Brit abroad I have lost count of the number of times I have been called upon to explain how, unlike other countries, one sovereign entity can have so many different ensigns of so many colours and what is their meaning.

I usually begin by asking how much time they have available and if they really want to know. By the time I get to the defaced variants I can see eyes glazing over and even heads shaking in disbelief so I tend to wrap it up. At that point a common reaction is to express the opinion that the class system must still be alive and well in the UK.​

​

 

[Robin]

It wasn't current members of the blue ensign clubs what did their derring-do either, unless they are jolly old.[/B]

Note: I still don't really care what ensigns people fly, though i was quite glad to see that La Malouine has a Scottish merchant flag now that she is based in Dumfries.

Totally irrelevant, it was recognition for the Yacht clubs in general not just for particular individuals. One of our (I'm still an overseas member) YC members was a merchant navy Captain who had been torpeedoed twice and rescued in the north Atlantic convoys after which he moved inshore and thereafter only captained inshore coasters but was unbelievably sunk yet again by enemy action off the western UK coast. He then sailed many more miles as a civilian in his own small boats but sadly died of cancer about 15 years back although his lovely second wife I believe is still an honorary club member. RIP Captain Bill.

 

[Serin]

It wasn't current members of the blue ensign clubs what did their derring-do either, unless they are jolly old.

All these flags have their histories and some people think they are worth celebrating, as you obviously do with the Scottish flag as worn by the magnificent Malouine. If you really don't care, then why all the blether?

Incidentally, referring to another post above, the Royal Cork is, of course, a club that was established before Ireland became a republic. If anyone thinks it might be "snobbish" because of its name and history, then they don't know the Royal Cork! (That is one fun club!)

 

[Lakesailor]

So he was a gallant man but is now dead. Why exactly should someone who has joined the club recently get the "honour" of flying a Blue Ensign? Because he has paid his membership?

 

[prv]

it seems so white captains hat and matching anchor motif scarf.

I've only ever seen one white captain's hat worn on a leisure vessel. It was a small "peche promenade" type motorboat and it was drifting down the river bumping into things having run out of fuel

We gave him a tow back to his marina and he gave us thirty quid :encouragement: - happy all round.

We still privately mocked his captain's hat though

Pete