Atalanta of Chester/Hanne Knutsen trial

[flaming]

Ok, so you're both saying there was a period where she wasn't wallowing while she was on a Sly course 30 odd seconds before the collision ie after the ship would obviously pass behind if Atlanta bore right off. The video seems to confirm that.

The bit I can't comprehend is is why she didn't get back on course then. (At least four people have used the word inexplicable, and I think it's that bit they can't explain - the flying along Sly towards a point where a ship is about to be, when the course they want is downwind & totally safe).

At seven knots the "lack of way theory" doesn't explain that.

My theory, as I've stated since 2011... is simply that the skipper knew the tanker is about to turn to starboard. It's already aborted one turn. The further West it sails towards him, the more it must be just about to turn. In that situation he's got it into his head that he really does not want to be on its starboard bow. And it seems to be chasing him. It sounds to turn to starboard, so he turns starboard, but then it turns port - to the south. So he keeps turning South. Only at some point he ran out of ability to turn south, as he broached.

If you'd dropped a new skipper on board half way through, it's possible that you might have got a different outcome from someone with a fresh perspective on the situation. But when you've made up your mind which way you're going to avoid something it's just human nature to keep running that way even when it's not necessarily the best course of action any more.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

In that situation he's got it into his head that he really does not want to be on its starboard bow.

Might be right. Especially if the patrol boat had said something that clouded their judgement and made that imperative.

I'm not sure I buy it though. Every fibre of their being must have been getting out of the ship's way and onto the NE-ish course they wanted.

They'd have been desperately looking for magic point where the ship had got far enough west that they could resume they Ely course. If it had been me that would have been my greyhound starting gate, "Right, we're off again.".

All guesswork of course, I fear we'll never know the truth.

 

[rotrax]

Going back to a point I bought up much earlier about organisers running courses across busy shipping and navigation channels, surely, as in Motorsport, the organiser will have a "Duty of care" on them to keep competitors as safe as is possible bearing in mind the normal hazards of the sport.

I wonder how this incident would be viewed had there been a fatality and a court case bought by dependants against the organisers.

Just speculating-negligence after all is the one thing in English Law which cannot be written out by carefully worded clauses on entry forms.

 

[fireball]

Going back to a point I bought up much earlier about organisers running courses across busy shipping and navigation channels, surely, as in Motorsport, the organiser will have a "Duty of care" on them to keep competitors as safe as is possible bearing in mind the normal hazards of the sport.

I wonder how this incident would be viewed had there been a fatality and a court case bought by dependants against the organisers.

Just speculating-negligence after all is the one thing in English Law which cannot be written out by carefully worded clauses on entry forms.

Far more hazards onboard - so the risk of being run over by a ship is negligible compared to other injuries.

You'd be better off comparing sail racing to other similar speed racing - such as marathons, 1/2 marathons and to a point - cycle road racing.
We've had a half marathon race come through our village just this weekend (although we weren't there to see it) - it's just along the road - nothing to demark a race track to the normal road - normal highway code applies.

Organisers will give competitors the usual warnings of hazards and what to expect - and that's how it should be. Adults taking part in such events shouldn't need mollycoddling and should be responsible for their own safety.
For children it is different - they are not old enough to understand the ramifications of their actions and should be guided - but adults ... ?!

A phrase I've heard springs to mind ... I say "phrase" .. it's two words ...

GROW SOME

 

[blackbeard]

Most of the half marathons I have been involved with close the roads, or at least some of them, for the duration of the race.
I do take your point, though.

According to the latest Yachting Monthly, the learned judge will be a yachtsman.

 

[rotrax]

Far more hazards onboard - so the risk of being run over by a ship is negligible compared to other injuries.

You'd be better off comparing sail racing to other similar speed racing - such as marathons, 1/2 marathons and to a point - cycle road racing.
We've had a half marathon race come through our village just this weekend (although we weren't there to see it) - it's just along the road - nothing to demark a race track to the normal road - normal highway code applies.

Organisers will give competitors the usual warnings of hazards and what to expect - and that's how it should be. Adults taking part in such events shouldn't need mollycoddling and should be responsible for their own safety.
For children it is different - they are not old enough to understand the ramifications of their actions and should be guided - but adults ... ?!

A phrase I've heard springs to mind ... I say "phrase" .. it's two words ...

GROW SOME

After a 45 year career in Motorcycle racing where I competed against the top riders and on the most dangerous circuits around the world I am affronted by your remark.

Any time you fancy a few laps on a Speedway bike, 80 BHP, no brakes, just PM me.....................

 

[l'escargot]

Going back to a point I bought up much earlier about organisers running courses across busy shipping and navigation channels, surely, as in Motorsport, the organiser will have a "Duty of care" on them to keep competitors as safe as is possible bearing in mind the normal hazards of the sport.

I wonder how this incident would be viewed had there been a fatality and a court case bought by dependants against the organisers.

Just speculating-negligence after all is the one thing in English Law which cannot be written out by carefully worded clauses on entry forms.

Just need to do a risk assessment - how many yachts involved in Cowes week have collided with commercial shipping since 1826? Approximately 1. Risk? So low as to be ignored...

 

[Uricanejack]

New info, I think:

http://www.pbo.co.uk/news/535446/trial-of-cowes-week-yachtsman-roland-wilson

Richard Twitchen, Commodore RN, had written an expert report. In his opinion the escort of one boat was insufficient to police the prohibited zone. He thought the ship's speed was on the borderline of speeding.

He agreed the Corby 33 was manoeuvrable and that if Atalanta had retained her Easterly course there would have been no collision but maintained that had she done so she would have passed across the ship's bow from port to starboard. Slowing the rate of turn was the cause of the accident.

Confirmation the Atlanta's ideal course was easterly:

Captain Towner thought that if Atlanta had continued on its easterly course it would have sailed clear.

So who is Richard twitchen

 

[rotrax]

Just need to do a risk assessment - how many yachts involved in Cowes week have collided with commercial shipping since 1826? Approximately 1. Risk? So low as to be ignored...

I dont know if that is true or you are just making it up.

But my point still stands-had there been a fatality and a case bought against the organisers for negligence in setting a course across a busy shipping channel would the organisers have some sort of cover for this possibility?
It is certainly the case in Motorsport-unless the rules are broken the national body has linked insurance to cover Clubs and licenced officials, as well as part time marshalls who sign on for that days event.

As I said previously I am just speculating about a Sport which is new to me.
The Americas Cup and the training fatality bring the possibility of Clubs having to examine their procedures in what is becoming a more dangerous sport at the highest levels.

 

[Giblets]

So who is Richard Twitchen

A great buddy and colleague of the defendant perhaps?

Does anyone know the speed limit for commercial vessels at that point of the Solent?

 

[l'escargot]

I dont know if that is true or you are just making it up...

Probably guilty of over-simplification but that is the gist. The risk could not come out as anything but low. There is more than enough information in the racing instructions and the whole week is co ordinated with VTS & Cowes HM to address that low risk.

How many other boats were in the vicinity and at risk of colliding with the tanker in this situation? At the end of the day what needs addressing? Basically a handful of well spaced ships passing through when there may or may not be a handful of boats in same part of the main channel at the same time...

 

[DownWest]

I dont know if that is true or you are just making it up.

But my point still stands-had there been a fatality and a case bought against the organisers for negligence in setting a course across a busy shipping channel would the organisers have some sort of cover for this possibility?
It is certainly the case in Motorsport-unless the rules are broken the national body has linked insurance to cover Clubs and licenced officials, as well as part time marshalls who sign on for that days event.

As I said previously I am just speculating about a Sport which is new to me.

Don't see the comparison. Motor sports follow fairly well marked lines a few yards wide, whereas boats choose the course between some fixed points. He was the only one to decide that his course needed to be close to a large, not very wieldy ship. With published conditions on how to engage such objects. Suing the race organiser for your own choice of actions seems a non starter.

To add: I missed L'Escargot's post due to slow fingers. But if the guy who went over the side had not been recovered (alive) then his dependents would have been suing the skipper, not the race committee. The buck normally stops with the skipper

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

A great buddy and colleague of the defendant perhaps?

It reads a bit like that, doesn't it.

I really liked "ship's speed was on the borderline of speeding".

Which AFAICT is just a prejudicial way of saying: "Not speeding.".

 

[prv]

Does anyone know the speed limit for commercial vessels at that point of the Solent?

I don't think there is one. Southampton's limit doesn't start until Hythe Pier near the top of Southampton Water, and Portsmouth enforces some limits in the central / eastern area but only within half a mile of the shore. Cowes limit ends more or less across the entrance.

I believe the pilots aim to bring the ships in at just over the minimum speed needed to retain effective manoeuvrability.

Pete

 

[Stork_III]

So who is Richard twitchen

The son of unimaginative parents. Fancy calling your son DICK, with that surname.

Commodore Richard Christoper Twitchen CBE RN one time Commodore Portsmouth Flotilla and ex Maritime Warfare Centre.

 

[lw395]

I'm not sure what, if anything, this adds - probably not a lot!

The detail isn't great and the turn, from which the data in the yellow box is generated, seems awfully sharp!
Copied from http://www.shipais.com/shiptrail.php?map=solent&mmsi=235598000&date=20110806

That is join the dots with dots at intervals of many seconds I think!

 

[lw395]

Probably guilty of over-simplification but that is the gist. The risk could not come out as anything but low. There is more than enough information in the racing instructions and the whole week is co ordinated with VTS & Cowes HM to address that low risk.

How many other boats were in the vicinity and at risk of colliding with the tanker in this situation? At the end of the day what needs addressing? Basically a handful of well spaced ships passing through when there may or may not be a handful of boats in same part of the main channel at the same time...

What's low risk?
One in a million?
Take several hundred yachts passing Cowes two or more times per race, times 8 days of Cowes Week times a few years....

 

[l'escargot]

What's low risk?
One in a million?
Take several hundred yachts passing Cowes two or more times per race, times 8 days of Cowes Week times a few years....

Extremely low risk probably so low as to be negligible - by far the vast majority of them won't even be in a shipping channel at the time a boat is passing.

Say 5 incoming and 5 outgoing movements a day during race times. What are the odds of any one of those yachts being in the area of concern or the shipping channel at the time of a ship passing? And they are not on rails they are choosing their route too, they can actually avoid each other. The best indicator of risk is past events. As I said, how many collisions have there been between yachts and commercial shipping since 1826?

 

[DJE]

I dont know if that is true or you are just making it up.

But my point still stands-had there been a fatality and a case bought against the organisers for negligence in setting a course across a busy shipping channel would the organisers have some sort of cover for this possibility?
It is certainly the case in Motorsport-unless the rules are broken the national body has linked insurance to cover Clubs and licenced officials, as well as part time marshalls who sign on for that days event.

As I said previously I am just speculating about a Sport which is new to me.
The Americas Cup and the training fatality bring the possibility of Clubs having to examine their procedures in what is becoming a more dangerous sport at the highest levels.

But there have been fatalities and serious injuries in organised yacht races and regattas. They have been caused by collisions between yachts, crew falling overboard, crew being hit on the head by the boom, crew falling and striking hard objects, etc, etc. None that I know of due to collisions with shipping. Dealing with other vessels is just one of a number of hazards that the skippers and crews have to content with along with weather, rocks, shallow water, gear failure, etc. And it is demonstrably a much smaller risk than many of the others.

 

[chewi]

Extremely low risk probably so low as to be negligible - by far the vast majority of them won't even be in a shipping channel at the time a boat is passing.

Say 5 incoming and 5 outgoing movements a day during race times. What are the odds of any one of those yachts being in the area of concern or the shipping channel at the time of a ship passing? And they are not on rails they are choosing their route too, they can actually avoid each other. The best indicator of risk is past events. As I said, how many collisions have there been between yachts and commercial shipping since 1826?

I think if the skippers of all those boats had not actively avoided those "negligible" risks there would have been a lot more accidents.
The fact is that the risk is there and it is real, the consequences are dire, so mostly skippers respond to that risk rather than neglect it.

You could look at cars on the roads in the same way. The risk is much greater than the accident rate would suggest because drivers try to avoid one another.
It is a long way from negligible.