Atalanta of Chester/Hanne Knutsen trial

[flaming]

Wind was SW or SSW? Seems to be from the other vessels in the area.

This is my take

So for sailing eastwards the At(a)lanta would've been deep downwind on starboard tack(gybe) as seen by the SS F40 boats later in the footage - his choice best course to sail would've been to carry on or gybe - carry on wasn't an option as HK would turn to starboard - to gybe could've seen them taken up towards Calshot as they'd have to wait for the HK to pass.
I would think Lt R Wilson decided to carry on as deep as possible so as not to loose too much ground due to the passing ship (iirc they were heading to a buoy just south of Bramble bank). Possibly here the HK sounded the horn to say it was turning starboard and the Atlanta changed course to pass down the port side?
The HK altered course to port (as part of the intended course or to avoid the NUC mobo?) - possibly cutting across the Atlanta's intended new course - so the Atlanta headed up (ie to starboard) but with such a big kite up they couldn't handle the new heading - ended up beam on to the wind with a flogging kite and very little speed. It can take a lot of work using sail and rudder alone to get out of such a position - during that time the skipper had to deal with the oncoming HK as well. With the engine controls down below (just start/stop or levers too?) he didn't (have time to?) order the engine to be started, forget the flogging kite and motor clear.

IMHO, whatever the intricacies of movements, sound signals and other distractions in the last 60 seconds before impact, Lt R Wilson was sailing a course too close to the planned and well known manoeuvring area of a large ship that he was obliged to keep clear of. Why he took such a course is unclear - it's been reported he was at the tail end of the fleet - but race series can be won/lost from the back and he may have been just trying to finish in front of his closest competitor which may have clouded his judgement.

The exclusion zone is strange - 1km in front is a long way - but seems to be a sensible safety margin - but 100m to the side and stern do not seem sufficient - as ships sterns swing out during course changes and a small boat skippers planned 100m gap could rapidly disappear. However, there are remarkably few incidents - so perhaps the current rules are sufficient and small boat skippers just need to be a little more prudent when navigating in the vicinity of shipping.

Agree 100%.

That version of events is nearly exactly what I suggested had occurred way back in 2011...

Of course I was drowned out by the lynch mob.

I keep putting myself in his shoes, and I keep thinking that the only thing he knows for certain is that at some point very soon that big ship is going to turn to Starboard. And especially once it sounds Starboard. I cannot honestly imagine myself turning from a near head on situation to pass down its starboard side once any big ship is past Prince consort.

Clearly he made a mistake, as he was far from the only boat in the vicinity sailing the same course, and the only one who hit the tanker. I think it was principally in not dealing with the situation earlier and leaving a much healthier margin for error, but once he was past a certain point I think he was in a very difficult situation.

 

[Keen_Ed]

Does anybody know if his engine panel is in the cockpit, or below on the engine box?

 

[flaming]

Does anybody know if his engine panel is in the cockpit, or below on the engine box?

Down below. Exactly where I don't know, but it is not on deck.

 

[fireball]

Down below. Exactly where I don't know, but it is not on deck.

But what about the levers?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

The HK altered course to port (as part of the intended course or to avoid the NUC mobo?) - possibly cutting across the Atlanta's intended new course - so the Atlanta headed up (ie to starboard) but with such a big kite up they couldn't handle the new heading - ended up beam on to the wind with a flogging kite and very little speed.

Sounds plausible.

Unfortunately, if that's what happened and I were the magistrate, I'd be finding them guilty of the rule 8d charge and if HK was impeded I'd be finding Atlanta guilty of those charges too. That version seems more of a confession than a defence.

 

[fireball]

Agree 100%.

That version of events is nearly exactly what I suggested had occurred way back in 2011...

Of course I was drowned out by the lynch mob.

I keep putting myself in his shoes, and I keep thinking that the only thing he knows for certain is that at some point very soon that big ship is going to turn to Starboard. And especially once it sounds Starboard. I cannot honestly imagine myself turning from a near head on situation to pass down its starboard side once any big ship is past Prince consort.

Clearly he made a mistake, as he was far from the only boat in the vicinity sailing the same course, and the only one who hit the tanker. I think it was principally in not dealing with the situation earlier and leaving a much healthier margin for error, but once he was past a certain point I think he was in a very difficult situation.

Thank you - that means quite a bit to know another experienced skipper holds very similar views on this as me.

 

[flaming]

But what about the levers?

On deck.

I think the engine is a red herring though. He was doing 7+ knots until shortly before the collision.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6CjpHFNteI

Watch this video, the broach is at 9 seconds. The collision at 31 seconds. That's 22s to realise things have gone totally wrong, start the engine and get out of the way. I'm not sure you could do that with the engine controls right at hand.

 

[l'escargot]

It's all far too academic to really matter to us i think, but the significance of a cut for me is that it could mean 2 cameras, not necessarily co-located. i.e. the view of the collision itself might be from a point which is not on the Power Station roof / Luttrell tower transit after all...

As you say, pretty academic but the two transits easily identifiable from the video come back to one point, or as near as damn it, so the east/west limits of the area where the collision occurred can be plotted with reasonable accuracy - it occurred nearer to the eastern limit using the video timeline.

Now just the north south to work out.

 

[A1Sailor]

It's all far too academic to really matter to us i think, but the significance of a cut for me is that it could mean 2 cameras, not necessarily co-located. i.e. the view of the collision itself might be from a point which is not on the Power Station roof / Luttrell tower transit after all...

I wonder if Judge Anthony Calloway believes in the Magic Bullet theory, and thinks Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK...

 

[l'escargot]

... I cannot honestly imagine myself turning from a near head on situation to pass down its starboard side once any big ship is past Prince consort...

I think that is the crux of the matter - it would go against every instinct.

 

[fireball]

Sounds plausible.

Problem is, if that's what happened and I were the magistrate, I'd be finding them guilty of the rule 8d charge and if HK was impeded I'd be finding Atlanta guilty of those charges too. That version seems more of a confession than a defence.

I wasn't offering it as a case for the defence or prosecution - it was a suggested scenario of what could've happened and possible reason of why the collision occurred.

 

[flaming]

Thank you - that means quite a bit to know another experienced skipper holds very similar views on this as me.

To be fair I've said nothing except that opinion since it happened!

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

the Atlanta headed up (ie to starboard) but with such a big kite up they couldn't handle the new heading - ended up beam on to the wind with a flogging kite and very little speed. It can take a lot of work using sail and rudder alone to get out of such a position

Agree 100%.

He was doing 7+ knots until shortly before the collision.

Which is it? Wallowing with no way, or doing 7 knots? It's quite important to understanding what might have happened.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I wasn't offering it as a case for the defence or prosecution - it was a suggested scenario of what could've happened and possible reason of why the collision occurred.

I wasn't suggesting you were. I've already changed my post to make that clearer.

 

[flaming]

Which is it? Wallowing with no way, or doing 7 knots? It's quite important to understanding what might have happened.

Watch the video I've just posted. For the second time in this thread, and god knows how many times in other similar threads. It show's him broaching as he enters the shot. Then 22s later a collision.

 

[fireball]

On deck.

I think the engine is a red herring though. He was doing 7+ knots until shortly before the collision.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6CjpHFNteI

Watch this video, the broach is at 9 seconds. The collision at 31 seconds. That's 22s to realise things have gone totally wrong, start the engine and get out of the way. I'm not sure you could do that with the engine controls right at hand.

I posted that one in the other thread I think - or may have been earlier in this one - I can see the Atlanta coming into shot - I wasn't sure if that was their first broach or just part of their losing control. If it were my boat (with engine controls at the helm) 22 seconds could've been just enough to get it started and out of there. Not that I would've been in that location to start with - but I've done some quick engine starts when a sailing manoeuvre goes wrong and not changing course would see us aground.

 

[Alan ashore]

I've just had a Doh.... moment. For some reason it never occurred to me that it was purely the depth of the leg, and Atalanta's relatively high optimum gybe angle (with an asymmetric kite), that caused her to be heading well to the south of her next mark, per VicS's dotted line.

 

[fireball]

Which is it? Wallowing with no way, or doing 7 knots? It's quite important to understanding what might have happened.

It doesn't take long to go from speed with the kite pulling hard to the kite flogging and the boat dead in the water.

 

[flaming]

I posted that one in the other thread I think - or may have been earlier in this one - I can see the Atlanta coming into shot - I wasn't sure if that was their first broach or just part of their losing control.

It's hard to know for sure, but my instinct is that's the first broach. 2 reasons - first the kite seems well trimmed then is eased as it comes into shot, and second I spent half a season racing against that boat, and it didn't seem to do broaching by half measures, and once gone it would stay gone (as you then see).

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

It doesn't take long to go from speed with the kite pulling hard to the kite flogging and the boat dead in the water.

Ok, so you're both saying there was a period where she wasn't wallowing while she was on a Sly course 30 odd seconds before the collision ie after the ship would obviously pass behind if Atlanta bore right off. The video seems to confirm that.

The bit I can't comprehend is is why she didn't get back on course then. (At least four people have used the word inexplicable, and I think it's that bit they can't explain - the flying along Sly towards a point where a ship is about to be, when the course they want is downwind & totally safe).

At seven knots the "lack of way theory" doesn't explain that.