Atalanta of Chester/Hanne Knutsen trial

[DJE]

...too unsafe for racing to take place from the squadron line whilst tankers are entering and exiting then why is it assumed that this should mean racing would stop?

No need for it to stop. But if push comes to shove it is much easier to move the start line than the deep water channel!

 

[AntarcticPilot]

You misunderstand - not priority under COLREGS - obviously they have that inside the Solent. But if it's deemed too unsafe for tankers to enter and exit the Solent whilst racing is taking place (I don't think it is btw), or conversely too unsafe for racing to take place from the squadron line whilst tankers are entering and exiting then why is it assumed that this should mean racing would stop?

Well, I don't think racing should stop, but in any conflict of interests between merchant shipping and yacht racing, I'm afraid I can't see yacht racing winning. Merchant shipping has national interest and commercial value on its side. Yacht racing has the sporting interests of a few thousands of people - less than a football stadium full, I am sure. OK, there are communities round the Solent who make money from yacht racing, but it must pale into insignificance compared with cash flowing from merchant shipping.

I'd certainly suggest that it is in the racing community's interests to ensure that such conflicts don't happen - because they'll lose if push comes to shove.

 

[bedouin]

The only thing known is that yesterday the Daily Echo was reporting proceedings, court was due to sit at 10am today and no proceedings have been reported today.
Maybe the reporter has a broken finger. Maybe the court has restricted reporting. Which seems more likely?

More likely he isn't there today. I think it is fairly common for local reporters just to turn up on the first day - it would hardly justify a reporter full time for a week

 

[flaming]

I'd certainly suggest that it is in the racing community's interests to ensure that such conflicts don't happen - because they'll lose if push comes to shove.

I'd agree with that. Though I think you could make a pretty convincing case that the economic damage to Cowes from losing Cowes week would be greater than the damage to the national economy from limiting tanker traffic in the Solent to outside 1000 - 1600 for 1 week of the year!

 

[jrc1983]

I'd agree with that. Though I think you could make a pretty convincing case that the economic damage to Cowes from losing Cowes week would be greater than the damage to the national economy from limiting tanker traffic in the Solent to outside 1000 - 1600 for 1 week of the year!

Depends how you look at it. At todays prices, the value of a crude cargo carried by a ship the size of Hanne Knutsen is worth almost $70 million. Now, every hour that cargo is delayed 'getting to market' and thus being refined and re-exported runs to millions by the hour.
When it comes to financial scrutiny in terms of economic effect, I rather suspect the racing community would lose. All they have to do to coexist happily is move the racing courses slightly West or East, away from the Brambles turn, as that is the critical point for all large ships entering or leaving the Port of Southampton.

 

[benjenbav]

I'd agree with that. Though I think you could make a pretty convincing case that the economic damage to Cowes from losing Cowes week would be greater than the damage to the national economy from limiting tanker traffic in the Solent to outside 1000 - 1600 for 1 week of the year!

Lovely thought! On a similar theme would it be ok to stop the traffic on the M1 for a week or so at the end of September so that old herding trails can be followed to get the livestock to michaelmas fairs? That was going on for hundreds of years before they tarmacced it over and invented the car.

 

[l'escargot]

The only thing known is that yesterday the Daily Echo was reporting proceedings, court was due to sit at 10am today and no proceedings have been reported today.
Maybe the reporter has a broken finger. Maybe the court has restricted reporting. Which seems more likely?

There is no restriction in reporting, the case isn't significant enough to warrant it. More likely the reporter had a day off or couldn't be arsed to sit through another day of a case that didn't interest him.

 

[lw395]

Snail, I think you should be defending Mr/Lt Wilson. Your postulations are putting a lot of doubt in my mind as to whether a guilty vedict is deserved. Far more than yesterday's "HK was speeding" and "why didn't the HK just stop and do a 180".

My impression of yesterday's court reporting was 'an idiot being defended by an idiot, as reported by an idiot.

 

[lw395]

I was thinking myself that if this prosecution fails then more onerous rules may be introduced in the Solent and possibly elsewhere. It can be difficult to predict what vessels may do when manoeuvring in confined waters, that could apply to both commercials and yachts, at least some of the case may rest on whether the yacht could or should have foreseen the movements of the ship. Easiest way out of the problem would be to ban yachts entering channels where ships go and make yachts cross as per TSS's, ie at right angles.

Likewise if this prosecution succeeds, it may set some precedents.
In my view, Cowes Week is already seriously challenged as a regatta.
Knowing that the burden of proof for an error of judgement being criminal is set at a low level might finish it off. Along with a lot of other racing.
People will go to Cork or Torquay/Dartmouth, or maybe somewhere in France.

 

[JumbleDuck]

You've failed to cite a single case of the rule being interpreted in your way.

You introduced the idea of an adequate watch several pages ago and then quoted the section of IRPCS which (effectively) defines that. I'm not entirely sure why so are so worried that I haven't produced evidence to back up your claim, with which I in any case agree.

 

[lw395]

I thought that entering the exclusion zone was an offence in itself. If so I don't see why they didn't charge him with that? Or is 'impeding' what you do if you enter the exclusion zone? [1] If so is the ship required to hold a steady speed and course as required by Rule 17? Or is there some doubt if the exclusion zone applied or not?

Anyone provide a linky to the legal consequences of entering the exclusion zone?

[1] Impede sounds a bit IRPCS to me, rather than local by laws.

It seems to me that the Atlanta's best course of action would have been to turn to starboard earlier.
Because the ship was always going to turn right.
That might well have implied entering the zone, or looking like entering the zone as viewed from the yacht.
How well can you judge a distance of 1000m? If you underestimate the size of the ship, you may think you are 1000m off quite early.

There is no way I would have turned to port unless I could have stayed out of the deepwater buoyed channel in doing so, except in the last 20 seconds or so.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Why would he have thought that? He would have been disqualified for entering the MPZ, it was no advantage to him.

The thought processes of racers are not always rational. That's not meant as a criticism, but as an expansion of my phrase "the excitement of racing". Thank you, however, for explaining that.

I have only once been a vague similar situation, when a US submarine in Clyde was, as US submarine were wont to do in these days, playing silly buggers with me. Changing course constantly, zooming past and then finally taking a straight run at me and diving underneath. I trust that the man with the headphone on appreciated the brisk tattoo I played with a lump hammer on a keel bolt as she went under.

But I digress. If the ship was behaving unpredictably, and if the yacht was not in the MPZ - which is there, I presume, to allow a bit of scope for unpredictability - I have complete sympathy with the yachtsmen in this case, whatever their motives initially.

 

[JumbleDuck]

What!!! Have you seen how big it is!

Ships dont jink!

It was the HANNE KNUTSEN-not the GARETH EDWARDS!

There is that, of course. What is the maximum rate of turn of something that size?

Boy, would I love to see a GPS plot of the routes taken by both vessels. I presume we'll get an MAIB report in due course, and they are generally pretty good about including such details.

 

[bedouin]

It seems to me that the Atlanta's best course of action would have been to turn to starboard earlier.
Because the ship was always going to turn right.
That might well have implied entering the zone, or looking like entering the zone as viewed from the yacht.
How well can you judge a distance of 1000m? If you underestimate the size of the ship, you may think you are 1000m off quite early.

There is no way I would have turned to port unless I could have stayed out of the deepwater buoyed channel in doing so, except in the last 20 seconds or so.

There should have been no need to turn at all - the tanker had begun a turn to starboard that should have taken it well clear, it was only because the tanker changed her mind that the collision happened.

I can't imagine anything more frightening in a small boat than crossing ahead of a large vessel that alters course towards your bows!

 

[lw395]

Depends how you look at it. At todays prices, the value of a crude cargo carried by a ship the size of Hanne Knutsen is worth almost $70 million. Now, every hour that cargo is delayed 'getting to market' and thus being refined and re-exported runs to millions by the hour......

Really?
Even if the cargo is worth $70m, unless the UK has run out of crude oil, the value of it being delayed by a tide would be fairly trivial.
There is usually plenty of oil sat on tankers doing sweet FA.
The real issue is probably a few hundred quid in overtime to dock it at night.

Compare with the number of roads that are shut for marathons, bicycle races etc the cost to business it isn't much.
Cowes week generates a lot of money for the local economy, as I've noticed, having been ripped off by it myself.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Depends how you look at it. At todays prices, the value of a crude cargo carried by a ship the size of Hanne Knutsen is worth almost $70 million. Now, every hour that cargo is delayed 'getting to market' and thus being refined and re-exported runs to millions by the hour.

I'm not sure I believe that. Oil doesn't go off, and the stuff on the HK will have been in transit for weeks before getting to Southampton. There will be delay costs of course, but they will be the charter rate of the tanker plus loss of interest on $70m worth of oil and any change in oil prices if the cargo had not already been sold. Even though crude prices were apparently falling that week[1], I doubt that that total of that lot comes to millions per hour.

[1] http://oilprice.com/Energy/Oil-Prices/Crude-Oil-Analysis-For-The-Week-Of-August-8-2011.html

 

[l'escargot]

Delaying a couple of cargo boats for an hour or two would have no more significance than closing London, Liverpool, Manchester etc. for their marathons

 

[jrc1983]

I'm not sure I believe that. Oil doesn't go off, and the stuff on the HK will have been in transit for weeks before getting to Southampton. There will be delay costs of course, but they will be the charter rate of the tanker plus loss of interest on $70m worth of oil and any change in oil prices if the cargo had not already been sold. Even though crude prices were apparently falling that week[1], I doubt that that total of that lot comes to millions per hour.

[1] http://oilprice.com/Energy/Oil-Prices/Crude-Oil-Analysis-For-The-Week-Of-August-8-2011.html

Hanne Knutsen is a shuttle tanker which will have delivered her cargo from a North Sea oilfield, so she will have loaded it at most a few days prior to the incident concerned - we're talking hours, not weeks. Being a North Sea shuttle tanker she will be on a highly preferential charter to the producer, the destination of her cargoes varying as markets require it, with cargo being moved as expeditiously as possible for export. Basically the sooner the cargo gets to the refinery the sooner the money starts rolling in.
When I worked on shuttle tankers time most certainly was money, and yes we are talking seven figures here. The last time I did it in anger was back in 2003 and the producer was earning $60 million in clear profit every ten days. That was only possible by my ship making as many trips as was physically possible between the export terminal and back to the field within that time period, trips that were unobstructed by individuals effectively blocking a commercial port for the sake of a jolly.

 

[jrc1983]

Really?
Even if the cargo is worth $70m, unless the UK has run out of crude oil, the value of it being delayed by a tide would be fairly trivial.
There is usually plenty of oil sat on tankers doing sweet FA.
The real issue is probably a few hundred quid in overtime to dock it at night.

Compare with the number of roads that are shut for marathons, bicycle races etc the cost to business it isn't much.
Cowes week generates a lot of money for the local economy, as I've noticed, having been ripped off by it myself.

There speaks someone who doesn't work in the oil industry.

 

[sailorman]

Hanne Knutsen is a shuttle tanker which will have delivered her cargo from a North Sea oilfield, so she will have loaded it at most a few days prior to the incident concerned - we're talking hours, not weeks. Being a North Sea shuttle tanker she will be on a highly preferential charter to the producer, the destination of her cargoes varying as markets require it, with cargo being moved as expeditiously as possible for export. Basically the sooner the cargo gets to the refinery the sooner the money starts rolling in.
When I worked on shuttle tankers time most certainly was money, and yes we are talking seven figures here. The last time I did it in anger was back in 2003 and the producer was earning $60 million in clear profit every ten days. That was only possible by my ship making as many trips as was physically possible between the export terminal and back to the field within that time period, trips that were unobstructed by individuals effectively blocking a commercial port for the sake of a jolly.

So do you think that oil prices are a rip-off with $60 mil profit in every 10 days in 2003