Atalanta of Chester/Hanne Knutsen trial

[jrc1983]

So do you think that oil prices are a rip-off with $60 mil profit in every 10 days in 2003

Oil prices aren't too bad bearing in mind market conditions - it's the duty we have to pay on that oil which is the rip off.

 

[sailorman]

Oil prices aren't too bad bearing in mind market conditions - it's the duty we have to pay on that oil which is the rip off.

So $60 mil in 10 days for one ship, is neither here nor there then @ 2003 prices

 

[lpdsn]

... trips that were unobstructed by individuals effectively blocking a commercial port for the sake of a jolly.

Cowes Week isn't a jolly, it's a serious economic event, which is why said commercial port has to co-exist with them rather than telling then to f off and do it somewhere else.

 

[lw395]

There speaks someone who doesn't work in the oil industry.

I don't, but I do have first hand knowledge of what it cost to delay a cable laying ship for a week in 2002. About $100,000 per day I believe.

I feel there may be some willy-waving going on by ABP wanting more control of the water, and some bad decisions made by Cowes Week in planning the races such that competitors end up facing down tankers.
Must get the racing over for cocktail hour on the lawn, what?
To some extent the muppet on the racing boat is caught between two contradictory sets of rules.

 

[l'escargot]

It also involves tens of thousands of people in various ways which isn't trumped by commercial interests. There is no legislation that says commercial interests take priority.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Hanne Knutsen is a shuttle tanker which will have delivered her cargo from a North Sea oilfield, so she will have loaded it at most a few days prior to the incident concerned - we're talking hours, not weeks. Being a North Sea shuttle tanker she will be on a highly preferential charter to the producer, the destination of her cargoes varying as markets require it, with cargo being moved as expeditiously as possible for export. Basically the sooner the cargo gets to the refinery the sooner the money starts rolling in.
When I worked on shuttle tankers time most certainly was money, and yes we are talking seven figures here. The last time I did it in anger was back in 2003 and the producer was earning $60 million in clear profit every ten days. That was only possible by my ship making as many trips as was physically possible between the export terminal and back to the field within that time period, trips that were unobstructed by individuals effectively blocking a commercial port for the sake of a jolly.

Many thanks. I am still finding the economics confusing, though. If it takes "a few days" to get from the North Sea to the Solent, and if she carries £70m worth, that sounds roughly as if she is a pipeline carrying £10m - £20m worth of oil per day, which seems quite a lot less than millions per hour.

As a metter of interest, have you any idea what the current charter rates would be like for something like the HK?

Note: I know stuff-all about the oil industry, save that one of my ex students runs oil rigs for a living. She's apparently very good at it. Tough woman.

 

[rotrax]

Well, I don't think racing should stop, but in any conflict of interests between merchant shipping and yacht racing, I'm afraid I can't see yacht racing winning. Merchant shipping has national interest and commercial value on its side. Yacht racing has the sporting interests of a few thousands of people - less than a football stadium full, I am sure. OK, there are communities round the Solent who make money from yacht racing, but it must pale into insignificance compared with cash flowing from merchant shipping.

I'd certainly suggest that it is in the racing community's interests to ensure that such conflicts don't happen - because they'll lose if push comes to shove.

Well put-thank you.

 

[dom]

The profits of oil companies are not that great in relation to the risks and magnitude of capital tied up. That's why their stocks have underperformed. And remember it's more than just oil companies: container ships, car carriers and the like are all feeding into Just-in-Time UK supply chains. Much as Cowes Week is a wonderful historical event - it would not be justifiable to disrupt UK foreign trade as its industrial wheels creak wearily back into life. Remember: these wheels = someone's job!

 

[JumbleDuck]

There is no legislation that says commercial interests take priority.

I agree completely. there is a very odd and dangerous notion around that people making money from something should have rights over those doing it for fun. See the occasional claims, for example, that yachts should give precedence to fishing boats at all times (and not just in the IRPCS "give way" sense) because fishermen are earning a living. Well, what about charter yachts, or sea school yachts? Should the rest of us feel obliged to give them special rights too?

 

[l'escargot]

Well, I don't think racing should stop, but in any conflict of interests between merchant shipping and yacht racing, I'm afraid I can't see yacht racing winning. Merchant shipping has national interest and commercial value on its side. Yacht racing has the sporting interests of a few thousands of people - less than a football stadium full, I am sure. OK, there are communities round the Solent who make money from yacht racing, but it must pale into insignificance compared with cash flowing from merchant shipping.

I'd certainly suggest that it is in the racing community's interests to ensure that such conflicts don't happen - because they'll lose if push comes to shove.

I'm not so sure. Commercial shipping recently got pushed into second place during the start of the RTIR, Cowes Week has far more influence.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I cannot see how the charge of failing to maintain a proper lookout can be made to stick - UNLESS in one of his statements to the MCA the skipper said something along the lines of "it came up on my blind side/never saw it until it hit me guv". Presumably the onus is on the prosecution to PROVE the charge.

As I've just posted, keeping a proper lookout is more than just seeing.

The fact that the conclusion resulting from "a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision" is wrong does not show the watch was not adequate to provide "a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision".

You've failed to cite a single case of the rule being interpreted in your way. The obvious reason for that is that it simply isn't.

AFAICT it's perfectly possible to collide with something without having broken Rule 5.

I'm not entirely sure why so are so worried that I haven't produced evidence to back up your claim, with which I in any case agree.

No doubt there will be great joy that the penny has dropped.

 

[Giblets]

I'm not so sure. Commercial shipping recently got pushed into second place during the start of the RTIR, Cowes Week has far more influence.

I would have thought that was more of a safety issue than a commercial one.

 

[rotrax]

My point re races across well known-and well used- navigation channels was that these channels are used by large ships when tidal condition are in their favour as to depth.
It is surely not beyond the wit of a race organiser to put the course elsewhere during these times.Especially when a prohibited zone surrounds large vessels.
The "We were here first" argument smacks of arrogance. It is sensible to avoid conflict if possible-especialy with BIG stuff.
The point about Chichester is that race organisers often run the course across the channel that large deep keeled craft are exiting so they clear the bar.
Often causes situations that need not happen.

 

[l'escargot]

I would have thought that was more of a safety issue than a commercial one.

Yes and it could be argued that there are equally strong safety issues during Cowes Week.

 

[l'escargot]

My point re races across well known-and well used- navigation channels was that these channels are used by large ships when tidal condition are in their favour as to depth.
It is surely not beyond the wit of a race organiser to put the course elsewhere during these times.Especially when a prohibited zone surrounds large vessels.
The "We were here first" argument smacks of arrogance. It is sensible to avoid conflict if possible-especialy with BIG stuff.
The point about Chichester is that race organisers often run the course across the channel that large deep keeled craft are exiting so they clear the bar.
Often causes situations that need not happen.

And races during Cowes Week take into account tidal conditions - indeed the dates of Cowes Week are dictated by tidal conditions. I think "we were here first" is far less arrogant than "but we are making money".

I think you would also be surprised to see that ships access Southampton these days at pretty much all states of the tide - particularly the cruise liners which seem to arrive/depart more on a commercial schedule than taking into account tidal considerations.

 

[JumbleDuck]

No doubt there will be great joy that the penny has dropped.

I accept your apology.

 

[l'escargot]

Intermission...

The crime scene was quiet this afternoon...

 

[rotrax]

And races during Cowes Week take into account tidal conditions - indeed the dates of Cowes Week are dictated by tidal conditions. I think "we were here first" is far less arrogant than "but we are making money".

I think you would also be surprised to see that ships access Southampton these days at pretty much all states of the tide - particularly the cruise liners which seem to arrive/depart more on a commercial schedule than taking into account tidal considerations.

Not my recent experience.
No doubt some ships not constrained by draught can go at almost any time but it is clear to me from personal observation that most large deep draught vessels arrive and leave the Solent nearer high water than low water.
Not only that, but when listening to Southampton VTS it appears they have a pretty good idea of ship movements prior to their departure.
Be interesting to hear from a pilot......................

 

[Uricanejack]

Just a few questions for those of you fammiliar with the Solent.

When Tankers are proceding into or out of the Solent are they required to have Escort Tugs?

When tankers are proceding into or out of the Solent are any Port authority vessels required to transit ahead of the Tanker to ensure Channel is clear.

Do tankers and or Port Controle make security call on 16 and VTS Channel about Tanker movment and requirment to keep Clear.

If not perhalps they ought to consider doing so, prior to closing cowes or banning racing. all above is common practice in some other parts of the world

 

[prv]

When Tankers are proceding into or out of the Solent are they required to have Escort Tugs?

Don't know about 'required', but certainly they often do have tugs, yes.

When tankers are proceding into or out of the Solent are any Port authority vessels required to transit ahead of the Tanker to ensure Channel is clear.

VTS aim to have their launch precede all clear-channel vessels, but don't guarantee it if the launch is not available for some reason. It is usually there.

Do tankers and or Port Controle make security call on 16 and VTS Channel about Tanker movment and requirment to keep Clear.

They talk on ch12; if you're listening you can easily keep yourself aware of what's happening. They don't make announcements as such, and they don't talk on 16 as a rule. I don't think VHF warnings are really necessary to be honest - the ships are hoofing massive, you can't miss them.

Pete