flaming
Well-known member
Of course not.
Atalanta of Chester/Hanne Knutsen trial
- Thread starter woodstock
- Start date
Of course not.
l'escargot
New member
The ones that have caught me out are the ones that look as if they are incoming but have probably left Portsmouth. You expect them to turn towards Calshot and then they don't, carrying on down to go out at the Needles Channel.
A1Sailor
...
I'm surprised the briefings don't include information about ship movements. Surely these are taken into account?
l'escargot
New member
He also races in a keelboat class so is very familiar with the Solent.
l'escargot
New member
You wouldn't be able to predict the time to the minute that any given ship is to pass through a race any more than racers can give the time the will pass the finish line - these are basically crossing situations that exist for a few minutes if they occur at all.
prv
Well-known member
They do take a different route depending on the tide. The VTS website has a diagram showing the various curves they might do from neap flood to spring ebb. Some of them go quite a long way west!
I know what you mean though - the one that caught me out was a smallish bulker (but still quite large enough, thanks!) that never did turn. Came through the bottom of the precautionary area but carried on into the western Solent - I guess going to anchor up somewhere to wait for a berth at the docks. Obviously I didn't come close enough to be a real concern, much less wrap my forestay round his anchor, but it was definitely confusing wondering why he still wasn't turning.
Pete
colingr
Active member
Easily available and tells you whether the vessel is using east ow west Solent. (Nab or Needles)
Also announced on CH12
http://www.southamptonvts.co.uk/Liv...s_and_Cruise_Ship_Schedule/Planned_Movements/
flaming
Well-known member
The briefing takes place on the Friday evening before racing. At this point the course for the next day isn't known, let alone the course for the rest of the week. As has been pointed out elsewhere there is a Pilot on the squadron platform to assist, and I would imagine that he would be taking an interest when the courses are set. Cowes is somewhat unusual in that the courses are decided very shortly before the start, and broadcast at the 10 minute gun.
Worth remembering though that the average spread in a fleet at the end of a Cowes week course can be over half an hour, often more, so planning a course to avoid all anticipated traffic is going to be nigh on impossible where the course crosses the shipping channel. Planning a course in the Solent that does not cross a channel is also nigh on impossible, especially with the larger boats.
That said... Cowes week did have unusual issues that year, as they had the Extreme 40s racing off the green. This meant that the traditional run past the green to finish was out, and all races coming from the Western Solent were being routed past Cowes, turning round a mark (often Prince Consort) then coming at the line from the East. It was this leg that Atalanta was on when it hit the ship.
fireball
New member
TBH, I can't see racing skippers being interested in that level of detail. They won't be able to know what time they'll be in the precautionary area any more than the race committee will - so will just deal with the situation as it develops.
The race committee will be more interested (but now have an ABP pilot to hand anyway) - I'm assuming to ensure they don't organise any starts around the time the ships are in the area.
Considering the amount of sailing that takes place in the Solent and the amount of commercial traffic I'm surprised that we haven't had more incidents like this - I guess cruising sailors will generally keep well clear as their path doesn't matter too much, plus they can use their engines to their hearts content. Not sure about racing sailors - I know some generally like to cut it fine with other sailing vessels (and can get quite uppity when colregs are shouted back at them) - but would they cut in front of a tanker?
I surmise that the Atalanta skipper didn't intend to be quite so close to the tanker, but how close to the 100m to the side did he try and get ?
ancient mariner
New member
Although not at Southampton myself, I am a big ship pilot and also a keen yachtsman who has been following this particular thread with interest. This simply is not a question of a 'Them v Us' situation - as with so many things, there needs to be a sensible and rational balance and not a conflict of interest in the commercial and leisure activities taking place out on the water... be it the Solent or anywhere else for that matter. It is encouraging to see that an ABP pilot is now seconded to the Cowes Week Race Committee briefings etc (maybe this should have been done some years ago), which will certainly go a long way in creating a better understanding of what us marine pilots are sometimes up against with these large vessels, especially in restricted channels. As a suggestion to local forumites who have a vested interest in this case, it might be worth inviting an ABP Southampton pilot to give a talk at your club sometime, which I feel can only be a good thing in helping to appreciate each other's constraints and responsibilities out on the water.
DJE
Well-known member
The one I always remember gave one long blast at Old Castle Point then turned through 180 degrees around West Ryde Middle buoy and anchored to the North of the Ryde Middle bank. Sometimes thinking you know where they are going makes it worse. Listening to Ch12 would be a good idea!
npf1
Active member
Agreed, it can be quite tricky. On a similar note, a couple of weeks ago (dark night, 25-30 knots of wind and lashing down with horizontal stinging raid) we were heading NW using the mid line of the channel to the East of Bramble (North channel?). We were just approaching Calshot when a coaster coming down SOTON water and appeared to be turning to starboard suddenly turned to port into the channel we were in. Bit of a surprise as we had assumed (wrongly!), because it begun to turn to starboard, that it would be going SW after Calshot! It was going at quite a pace too. We did a sharp turn to port towards the shallow water and it passed us by a two/three of boat lengths. He took the East side of the channel, I guess to avoid us a bit, so there was no option to do a port to port pass. All worked out well, but literally 30 seconds of indecision could have had a very different outcome and thankfully we could easily make the rapid turn to port.
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sarabande
Well-known member
I've had a quick look at the prelim notice for the 2014 Cowes Week.
12 RISK STATEMENT
Rule 4 of the Racing Rules of Sailing states: “The responsibility for a boat’s decision to participate in a race or to continue
racing is hers alone.” Sailing is by its nature an unpredicatable sport and therefore inherently involves an element of risk.
By taking part in the event, each competitor agrees and acknowledges that:
a. They are aware of the inherent element of risk involved
in the sport and accept responsibility for the exposure of
themselves, their crew and their boat to such inherent risk
whilst taking part in the event;
b. They are responsible for the safety of themselves, their crew,
their boat and their other property whether afloat or ashore;
c. They accept responsibility for any injury, damage or loss to
the extent caused by their own actions or omissions;
d. Their boat is in good order, equipped to sail in the event and
they are fit to participate;
e. The provision of a race management team, patrol boats and
other officials and volunteers does not relieve them of their
own responsibilities;
f. The provision of patrol boat cover is limited to such
assistance, particularly in extreme weather conditions, as can
be practically provided in the circumstances.
Now the Risk Statement for 2013 reads:
B29 RISK STATEMENT
Rule 4 of the Racing Rules of Sailing states: “The responsibility for a boat’s decision to participate in a race or to continue
racing is hers alone.”
Sailing is by its nature an unpredicatable sport and therefore inherently involves an element of risk. By taking part in the
event, each competitor agrees and acknowledges that:
a. They are aware of the inherent element of risk involved
in the sport and accept responsibility for the exposure of
themselves, their crew and their boat to such inherent risk
whilst taking part in the event;
b. They are responsible for the safety of themselves, their
crew, their boat and their other property whether afloat
or ashore;
It looks as if there has been discussion on the collision
IIRC when I sailed in RORC races and at Cowes, the SIs had a clause which said something like: nothing in these instructions shall take priority over good seamanship or IRPCS.
I can't find that in the Cowes Week docs - perhaps I have missed it ? The nearest is in the 2014 prelim doc
"
Navigation Restrictions
Don't get caught out! Every year, many boats are penalised unnecessarily because they go through restricted areas - read the SI's. It's just as important for regular Aberdeen Asset Management Cowes Week competitors as it is for newcomers to read the SI's thoroughly as changes are made each year."
12 RISK STATEMENT
Rule 4 of the Racing Rules of Sailing states: “The responsibility for a boat’s decision to participate in a race or to continue
racing is hers alone.” Sailing is by its nature an unpredicatable sport and therefore inherently involves an element of risk.
By taking part in the event, each competitor agrees and acknowledges that:
a. They are aware of the inherent element of risk involved
in the sport and accept responsibility for the exposure of
themselves, their crew and their boat to such inherent risk
whilst taking part in the event;
b. They are responsible for the safety of themselves, their crew,
their boat and their other property whether afloat or ashore;
c. They accept responsibility for any injury, damage or loss to
the extent caused by their own actions or omissions;
d. Their boat is in good order, equipped to sail in the event and
they are fit to participate;
e. The provision of a race management team, patrol boats and
other officials and volunteers does not relieve them of their
own responsibilities;
f. The provision of patrol boat cover is limited to such
assistance, particularly in extreme weather conditions, as can
be practically provided in the circumstances.
Now the Risk Statement for 2013 reads:
B29 RISK STATEMENT
Rule 4 of the Racing Rules of Sailing states: “The responsibility for a boat’s decision to participate in a race or to continue
racing is hers alone.”
Sailing is by its nature an unpredicatable sport and therefore inherently involves an element of risk. By taking part in the
event, each competitor agrees and acknowledges that:
a. They are aware of the inherent element of risk involved
in the sport and accept responsibility for the exposure of
themselves, their crew and their boat to such inherent risk
whilst taking part in the event;
b. They are responsible for the safety of themselves, their
crew, their boat and their other property whether afloat
or ashore;
It looks as if there has been discussion on the collision
IIRC when I sailed in RORC races and at Cowes, the SIs had a clause which said something like: nothing in these instructions shall take priority over good seamanship or IRPCS.
I can't find that in the Cowes Week docs - perhaps I have missed it ? The nearest is in the 2014 prelim doc
"
Navigation Restrictions
Don't get caught out! Every year, many boats are penalised unnecessarily because they go through restricted areas - read the SI's. It's just as important for regular Aberdeen Asset Management Cowes Week competitors as it is for newcomers to read the SI's thoroughly as changes are made each year."
Alan ashore
Member
It's by no means exceptional in my experience (general Solent racing, not specifically Cowes Week) for Race Officers to broadcast information about a specific impending ship movement. Starting sequences on the Squadron Line are also sometimes delayed to allow a ship to pass and clear.
But echoing other posters, I don't think there's evidence of General Ignorance of the need to look for and proactively avoid getting into a close quarters situation with shipping in the central Solent, especially among the racing community.
People do and will continue to screw up from time to time however well briefed they have been.
Just for fun let's compare with the roads, where all drivers have been examined and certified, regulation and signage is everywhere, and there are daily fatalities.
A.
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
In gliding competitions all competitors carry loggers which are checked at the end of the day, and any penetration into controlled airspace results in automatic disqualification. Does something like that happen in the sailing world too?
benjenbav
Well-known member
Racing aside, I'm really struggling to understand why anyone who doesn't draw 5m+ needs to be in the precautionary area for the Thorn Channel. Or, if they feel they have to, why there seems to be a degree of surprise that they are sharing the space with large vessels making a turn around the Bramble Bank to get in or out of Southampton Water. Seriously, look at the flipping chart. It's really quite deep in most places ('cept for west of the Thorn Channel by Calshot, obviously)
Alan ashore
Member
A tiny snippet more from the proceedings:
Yesterday, the court was given evidence from crews of the Southampton Harbour escort boat, the Spitfire 1.
All said they had attended the disabled Joy C and that they had warned Atalanta in robust language that a ship was approaching.
The trial continues today, Friday.
source: http://www.pbo.co.uk/news/535433/cowes-week-yacht-and-tanker-crash-trial
Yesterday, the court was given evidence from crews of the Southampton Harbour escort boat, the Spitfire 1.
All said they had attended the disabled Joy C and that they had warned Atalanta in robust language that a ship was approaching.
The trial continues today, Friday.
source: http://www.pbo.co.uk/news/535433/cowes-week-yacht-and-tanker-crash-trial
toad_oftoadhall
New member
Which surely gets the Atlanta right off the hook on the 'failing to keep watch' charge. They'd actually been verbally told the ship was on the way. Assuming the 'lookout' charge related to the collision with the ship which might not be the case, I suppose.
I'd love to know if the escort boat offered an opinion on whether or not the ship was illegally "impeded" by Atlanta and if so how.
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JumbleDuck
Well-known member
and therefore were obliged to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision (Rule 5). If they didn't do that they weren't maintaining a proper lookout in IRPCS terms, even if they saw the ship or were told she was around. Of course they may have kept a proper lookout and been confounded by the ship's actions, but just knowing the ship was there isn't enough to get them off the hook.
toad_oftoadhall
New member
It's impossible to prove they failed to keep a lookout that wasn't good enough to make a full appraisal of the situation. They could easily have done so and simply came to an incorrect conclusion.
You conceded that point yesterday. (You've even offered a plausible scenario where they could have kept a look out good enough to make a full appraisal and *still* pressed on.)
You've got the onus of proof the wrong way round.
Looks like there are two other 'offences':
The prosecutor, Simon Row read the charges.
Lt Wilson contravened three Colregs:
Rule 5; He did not keep an adequate lookout.
Rule 9b; He impeded a large vessel in a narrow channel.
Rule 18; He impeded a vessel constrained by its draft.
Additionally he is accused of breaching Rule 7 by failing to adequately determine a risk of collision and Rule 8d as his actions did not result in his vessel passing a safe distance from the ship.
I can't see how you'd prove they broke rule 7.
....but Rule 8d.... I think it's entirely possible they failed to comply with that and it looks to me like the evidence from the escort vessel supports that.
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