Anchors. I hate to do this but...

[steveallan]

Thanks to everyone for a really entertaining evening. Much better than watching a old DVD.

 

[noelex]

If anchors are really good, why should any parts ever need replacing?

An ideal anchor would be so strong it could never be deformed, but there are trade offs thicker blunter edges penetrate weed and hard surfaces less well effecting the holding power.
The anchor can be constructed with better materials or construction techniques that allow a thin profile retaining sufficient strength, but there is a limit.
We are dependent on the anchor manufacturer to make these calculations.
If the anchor bends the anchor manufacturer can deny liability claiming the anchor has hit a rock. Most cruising yachtsmen would respond "yes the bottom of the ocean frequently has rocks" A lifetime warranty is a bit meaningless unless we understand what it will cover. The anchor manufacturer will be the judge if this is a warranty claim or not.

An anchor manufacturer like Fortress and Rocna that agree to stand by their product and replace an anchor that is damaged, deserve our support. It may well be a more important practical difference, to many yachtsmen, than the small difference in performance seen in the various new generation of anchors.

 

[Brian@Fortress]

If anchors are really good, why should any parts ever need replacing?

Scotty, that's a fair question. You may have read where I have referenced Robert Taylor, the US Navy / Offshore platform anchor design & soil mechanics guru.

When we were discussing anchor re-setting capability, he mentioned that: "I have seen many anchors recovered with bent shanks (even a 10 ton stockless anchor and that surprised me). The only way this happens is if the flukes were resistant to off line loading."

And so what can happen with any anchor of any material is that they can simply become so embedded into a sea bottom that they won't move......and then the load from what the boat is doing above puts a strain on the anchor that is beyond its material limits.

By the way, our warranty covers ALL damage, no matter how it occurred. We never even ask customers that question.

Brian

 

[noelex]

Thanks to everyone for a really entertaining evening. Much better than watching a old DVD.

Glad we are entertaining I just watched Doris Day and Rock Hudson in "Pillow talk", but at the same time it was blowing 40K. I think I need some new generation movies to go with the anchor.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

By the way, our warranty covers ALL damage, no matter how it occurred. We never even ask customers that question.

Well, that's clear enough.

And here's the Rocna information http://www.rocna.com/product-range/warranty-information/ which also tells me that it has to be used in accordance with the user guide. When I eventually find a link to the User Guide it tells me "Page not found".

Hey Ho!

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

The most offensive post on this thread has been #128.
I also enjoy Craigs contribution to this forum, and Brians and the chap from manson...

Ah! the problem is that the original 128 of Riggers has now been removed (no surprise) and yours truly is now 128
Friends in high places Rigger?
Anyway, I'm glad you'r back and your tone has improved old chap.

 

[Brian@Fortress]

Attached is a copy of Rocna's Lifetime Warranty section. It is only for the original purchaser. Fortress couldn't care less if the anchor was on a boat that was sold 5x, or the guy bought it used on eBay.....we still honor our warranty.

Check out the Exclusions. Fortress has none.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Scotty,

I suspect that you realise I'ld have left it there if I had the choice, but there it is... or isn't as the case may be.
But, thanks for the welcome!
Back, but still determined to pin him down!

 

[Mansonanchors55]

Broke what Rocna? I have never seen a shank-to-fluke weld on a Rocna break. It is one of the strongest parts of the anchor. There is a vicious little rumor out there put forth by certain interests that posits there is some issue with welding steel to cast steel. This is an outright falsification from people who should, but admittedly probably don't, know better. Whilst involved and requiring careful specification and quality control, there is absolutely no issue whatsoever in this process as it is spec'ed by Rocna. It is very standard, done according to industry standards - not to mention IACS/RINA materials & welding specifications.

If you load put a Rocna in a test rig and load it up until you start breaking things, you will eventually firstly bend the shank, then probably the fluke, and if you're still able to apply force to it probably finally rip the rode attachment point out of the end of the shank. All before the shank-to-fluke weld is ever troubled. In the real world of course with matching gear you'd have long since busted the shackle or chain.

~

On the Manson fluke above. Manson use this method of construction with a few of their anchors; a required shape is made up by edge welding thinner plate together, rather than using solid steel or proper casting set-ups. Specifically in the case of the Supreme, they copy the general configuration of the Rocna fluke which has a thicker tip (for strength and tip-weight) and a thinner heel (to save weight where the strength is not required). The Rocna uses solid steel, whether fabricated or cast, in both areas. Manson however make up their fluke by welding face-to-face two thin sheets of steel, the smaller portion forming the thicker tip.

It is a basic mechanical engineering principle that the strength of a beam of steel is proportionate to the square of its thickness. In other words, a beam (of the same overall dimensions and material) that is 10 mm thick is 4 times the strength of one which is 5 mm thick.

When you take two 5 mm thick sheets and put them together face-to-face, you have the sum of their respective strengths, which of course is 2 times (not 4 times), in this example.

The edge-weld then adds some more strength back into the set-up, but it should be plainly obvious that a thin edge weld, which leaves the interior completely untouched and hollow, is not going to bring the fabrication back up to the strength of solid steel.

Manson falsely use the term "laminate", which of course relates to gluing sheets together to make things like plywood. Laminate structures like that benefit from their make up of glues and crossed grains to greatly increase strength - but this has nothing whatsoever to do with edge-welding two sheets of steel together to fake a solid looking product.

LIES

Craig, why do you continue to misinform about our product instead of selling your product on it's merits?

Firsly our fully laminated (not edge welded) nose is welded in form from two dissimilar radiused nose plates. The strength is in the form of the product. We didn't copy the Rocna's nose, the Plough has had a reinforced nose in this form for 40 years.

In over 20,000 Supremes sold, we have had three noses bend, (you have photos of one, how curious) and NONE delaminate, so why is that an issue for you?

What is the elongation factor of your cast nose? I would gaurantee it is less than half the elongation of the Supreme's plate nose.

QUESTION: how much stronger do you believe the Rocna's nose is than the Supreme's? 5 times? 10 times?

If you would please bring down your anchor, we can test it on our calibrated and certified test jig. We have tested it against ours. We have videoed those tests. However in the interests of posting something that you will not say is made up, I welcome you to come here and we will video your face as we do the tests so the readers can see what eating your words after years of misinformation looks like.

Put up or shut up Craig. Any time you would like to test your anchor we are here. Any time. PLease confirm in this thread how much stronger you believe your nose is.

Noelex. A good question. When we designed the nose we thought of making the reinforced section from high tensile plate. This would for all intents make the nose virtually unbendable. But then we thought further. If the nose won't bend and it's stuck in a crevice you won't get your anchor back. You will have to cut away chain and potentially if you are a bluewater cruiser it's better to get a bent anchor back and fix it than trying to replace an anchor in a remote part of the world.

That's why we put the slot on the Supreme. If you are anchoring in foul ground you simply change over the to the sliding slot, and then if the anchor is fouled, you drive over and pull the anchor out from the front. It's why we incorporated that feature in the anchor.

Noelex I would be very weary of Craig's promise of full replacement. I have emailed Rocna management of which Craig isn't a part of and asked them for their confirmation of this before he opens them up to potential huge ramifications. Fortress is the only company that offers this. Lewmar Spade and us all gaurantee our parts and workmanship under normal use, however we can't warantee against boaters getting their anchors stuck. This is just impractical and steel will bend, it's nearly impossible to stop an anchor from bending if it is wedged.

Would anyone ever warranty a 20kg item, when if a 15tonne boat locks it's chain off and drives the anchor out and expects there to be no damage??? This wouldn't really be commercially practical. Because Fortress can replace parts this is far easier, it isn't a fully welded item.

In any case there are still 8-10 answers for which Craig you have yet to supply.

There is an open invitation for you to provide us with how much stronger your anchor is and then come down and prove it. You must be relishing the opportunity to prove yourself correct. Just make a time and we will be here waiting.

Thanks readers
Regards
Manson Anchors

 

[idpnd]

Rocna's Lifetime Warranty section. It is only for the original purchaser.

Yes I thought that was a bit odd.. Non-transferable.. Like train tickets where I come from. Doesn't make it a good investment does it

 

[noelex]

[

Would anyone ever warranty a 20kg item, when if a 15tonne boat locks it's chain off and drives the anchor out and expects there to be no damage??? This wouldn't really be commercially practical. Because Fortress can replace parts this is far easier, it isn't a fully welded item.

So a no on the warranty question.

I understand it is a difficult issue. When an anchor is bent the user will claim perhaps it wasn’t strong enough and the anchor manufacturer will claim no anchor can survive undamaged in all conditions.

I do wonder if this is the correct commercial decision. If only 3 Supremes have been bent in 20,000 it would be inexpensive to cover the damaged anchors even if it was viewed as a form of insurance, or good will gesture, rather than a strict warranty issue. Given that the opposition offer such a warranty and have questioned the construction methods of the Supreme it would seem to be an opportunity missed.

I do ,however, appreciate your straightforward answer.

 

[Brian@Fortress]

So a no on the warranty question.

Given that the opposition offer such a warranty and have questioned the construction methods of the Supreme it would seem to be an opportunity missed.

I do ,however, appreciate your straightforward answer.

Noelex, I would check the Rocna warranty write up before concluding that they would cover damage in that circumstance. There is a lot of legalese and exclusions. Maybe another question for young Craig on his ever growing list.

 

[TamarMike]

Are these some of them Rockna thingies??

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Noelex, I would check the Rocna warranty write up before concluding that they would cover damage in that circumstance. There is a lot of legalese and exclusions. Maybe another question for young Craig on his ever growing list.

As he hasn't come back I'll have a go at answering on his behalf.

It's clear that the Rocna guarantee is only against manufacturing defects. It's only for the initial purchaser (quaintly saying "Good for the lifetime of the original purchaser" so, if it kills you ...tough ). Corrosion of the galvanizing isn't covered. It's unclear about P&P costs.

Craig, I hope that's saved you answering one question at least, but I'm sure you'll be happy to make any necessary corrections. Would you like me to answer the other questions on your behalf?


PS. Brian; Not relevant to the general discussion but what we refer to as P&P (Post and packaging) is what you refer to as S&H (Shipping & Handling, I understand).
"Two Nations, divided by a common language"

 

[noelex]

There has been some doubt expressed over what seems a straightforward question and answer. So at the risk of repeating myself and offending anyone I will ask the question again together with some supplemental questions.
Craig

1) If the tip of my Rocna was bent , say from getting caught under a rock during retrieval. Would it be replaced under warranty?
2) Can you confirm you represent Rocna in answering this question?
3) Who pays for shipping and transport with a such a warranty claim? Is shipping to the local dealer or back to NZ?

 

[craigsmith]

E-mail Rocna and ask them directly if you want something on the record, if you're concerned by the above little games. The legalese of "lifetime warranties" that extend beyond the provisions of normal consumer law are normal business safeguards to stop people taking the proverbial. I don't represent Rocna Ltd, no.

Obviously you do not ship the anchor back to NZ. If you believe Fortress on that they'll tell you another. You would deal with whomever you bought the product from, or go over their heads if desired.

The point is rather moot with regard to bending the fluke. In the RINA pull testing where we did so with a 25, the force required was well in excess of the breaking strain, never mind safe working load, of 10 mm G40 chain which is what you might be using. Go figure. If I bent the fluke of an anchor in real world usage, I would expect to have a rather strong claim under statutory sales of goods or whatever you call it in the UK, let the manufacturer try to evade it...

 

[Mansonanchors55]

So a no on the warranty question.

I understand it is a difficult issue. When an anchor is bent the user will claim perhaps it wasn’t strong enough and the anchor manufacturer will claim no anchor can survive undamaged in all conditions.

I do wonder if this is the correct commercial decision. If only 3 Supremes have been bent in 20,000 it would be inexpensive to cover the damaged anchors even if it was viewed as a form of insurance, or good will gesture, rather than a strict warranty issue. Given that the opposition offer such a warranty and have questioned the construction methods of the Supreme it would seem to be an opportunity missed.

I do ,however, appreciate your straightforward answer.

Offering an unconditional warranty would affect the way you use your anchor. If you said if you bend it we replace it, no one would the slot, and no one would take any care anchoring in foul ground. Just like if a rigger said to you, if the mast falls down we will replace it. Then who would care and exercise caution if you knew you could push it, against better boating judgement because someone else would pay for your carelessness. We would believe that looking at warranty on a case by case basis is prudent. We fixed two of the three bent anchors on site for free, one person had indeed been using it as a rock anchor and was told it was his one chance. If you can bring your anchor here with damage we would obviously try and assist you. We build everything on site. Something our competitor doesn't do. We also don't lie about their product but that is their moral decision. There is absolutely nothing weak or compromised about our anchor in any way. The only drawback of the Supreme is that due to the roll bar it is sometimes difficult to stow on some fairleads. Strength is not, nor has it ever been an issue.

 

[Brian@Fortress]

Young Craig, at present you have two representatives from companies whose products you have trashed for several years right here in your forum playground.

And now, are you going to "man up" as previously stated, by answering the hard questions put to you by us and the others in this forum, or are you going to remain the "boy child" you appear to be......just a naughty kid who hides behind his computer monitor and causes trouble for Daddy's competitors for his own fun and sick amusement???

We learned tonight that you can't even speak on behalf of Rocna, so why else are you here? What you might not be mature enough to understand is that Manson and I work very hard for our fine, reputable companies and we support our families in doing so......but to you this is all one great big joke, since obviously you do not share any of our same responsibilities.

Your coy little "hide and seek" game that you play on the forums is shameful....."I'll trash you but you'll never catch me!" Just pathetic.

Now, do you want those questions again.....or is it your turn to go hide?

 

[mihtjel]

This is all excellent entertainment, though I'm waiting for the host to step in and reveal how the three of you are in reality long-lost brothers...

 

[Conachair]

Has anyone here actually bent or damaged a rocna? Or know of one getting damaged?