Anchors. I hate to do this but...

[craigsmith]

Yes.

 

[Brian@Fortress]

I think we all learned a lot more about Manson in this thread, and simply from a consumer's viewpoint, I find it difficult to even mention Rocna in the same sentence with Manson. Let's do the math:

Manson - 40 years in business, manufacturing a wide variety of welded steel anchors in the same NZ facility during that entire time, Lloyd's Registry (LR) approved welders, LR Type Approval for all anchors.

Rocna - 6-7 years in business, manufacturing a single type of anchor, manufacturing started in NZ but moved to China, no certifications for Chinese manufacturing facility or welders.

If given the choice between buying a similar type product from one of those companies, is there a difficult decision here?

Its no wonder why Craig shies away from answering direct questions put to him by Manson. Rocna is simply not in their league.

 

[vyv_cox]

A point about Cast Iron. That is infact a misleading name. Cast Iron should more correctly be called Cast Steel. In fact during the manufacture of steel the input material is cast iron which is rolled to the shape required. It changes crystalline structure but not chemical makeup which is mainly Iron with a high level of Carbon. The odd one out is Wrought Iron which has had the carbon removed and was the material of choice for Victorian engineers but is rarely seen these days.

Sorry, this is nonsense. Iron contains something like 2.5 - 5% of carbon. Grey iron castings contain free graphite, which makes the material brittle.

Steel has a carbon content between 0 and 0.8% in most cases. Iron is converted to steel by blowing air (open hearth process) or oxygen (electric process) through it, converting the carbon to carbon dioxide. Most engineering steels, including the one Rocnas are made from, contain 0.2 - 0.4% carbon, in solution with the iron. Cast steel is strong, tough and ductile, totally different from cast iron.

 

[craigsmith]

no certifications for Chinese manufacturing facility or welders.

Ah that's just not true is it? I hesitate to use the term "lie", but what else? Rocnas are produced under a complete RINA regime that is exactly equivalent to Lloyd's, ABS, DNV, whatever.

Under what independent anchor classification regime is every Fortress built? What type approval, HHP or SHHP classification, and production certification?

 

[craigsmith]

Steel has a carbon content between 0 and 0.8% in most cases. ... Most engineering steels, including the one Rocnas are made from, contain 0.2 - 0.4% carbon

On the lesser end; unified IACS / RINA materials rules mandate a maximum carbon content of 0.23% for anchors anyway.

 

[Brian@Fortress]

If the tip of your anchor was bent like this say from getting caught under a rock during retrieval. Would it be replaced under warranty?

Ok Brian (Fortress) Craig (Rocna) and Mansonanchors55 (Manson) over to you.

We offer a Lifetime Parts Replacement Warranty with our product. If ANY anchor part ever gets damaged under ANY circumstance, we will replace the part for free, the only cost is for S & H, which is nominal since the parts are relatively light and we ship them via the US Postal Service.

Noelex, you might want to cover how the warranty is actually handled by the other companies and who pays for what. For example, how EXACTLY does it work if a customer bends that Rocna fluke tip.....does the customer have to ship the anchor back to Rocna in NZ and pay those costs, or do they have to pay for the cost of shipping a complete new anchor from NZ back to him?

With our warranty, a customer simply needs to contact and tell us the anchor part he needs, and he does NOT have to send back the damaged part. The customer is also not required to show proof of purchase, and it is not required that he registered his purchase by sending in a warranty card.

These specifics should be covered, as they might put an enormous cost and inconvenience upon the customer.

 

[RichardS]

There are no cons to doing it properly, other than cost.

Conversely the only benefit to doing it improperly is cost cutting.

I don't disagree.

But, as with any cost / benefit analysis, there is not often one definitive "sweet spot" and compromise usually rears its ugly head!

I seem to recall that the Supreme was indeed cheaper than the Rocna so their reading of what the anchor market will bear is perhaps slightly different to your's?

Richard

 

[craigsmith]

I don't disagree.

But, as with any cost / benefit analysis, there is not often one definitive "sweet spot" and compromise usually rears its ugly head!

I seem to recall that the Supreme was indeed cheaper than the Rocna so their reading of what the anchor market will bear is perhaps slightly different to your's?

Ah I have to admit you're right.

But you could say precisely the same about any cheap knock-off at any price point. Where do you stop?
The Rocna is cheaper than the genuine CQR, and its primary competitor the Spade, I think about the same price a genuine Bruce would be if still available, and tested performance should present a better value proposition even compared to Manson's copy - so on balance it's about right. There will always be lower quality products trying to undercut it.

 

[Brian@Fortress]

Ah that's just not true is it? I hesitate to use the term "lie", but what else? Rocnas are produced under a complete RINA regime that is exactly equivalent to Lloyd's, ABS, DNV, whatever.

Under what independent anchor classification regime is every Fortress built? What type approval, HHP or SHHP classification, and production certification?

Manson brought out that the Chinese facility which is manufacturing Rocna anchors is not RINA approved and does not have RINA approved welders. Are you saying it does?

For many years, Fortress has had ABS Type Approval, ABS Certificate of Manufacturing Assessment, and ABS Certificate of Design Assessment. Does Rocna have anything similar?

Fortress has SHHP certification from DNV for our two largest anchor sizes.

Still waiting for your answer on the bogus Rocna web site chart and answers to the Manson questions. As Allan pointed out, you are as slippery as a politician.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Ah I have to admit you're right.

But you could say precisely the same about any cheap knock-off at any price point. Where do you stop?

There you go again Craig - cheap Knock off - are you calling the Manson a cheap knock off? its not even a copy of yours, but of a bugle or possibly the Sarco from Australia if anything, so perhaps you copied theirs.

The Rocna is cheaper than the genuine CQR, and its primary competitor the Spade, I think about the same price a genuine Bruce would be if still available, and tested performance should present a better value proposition even compared to Manson's copy - so on balance it's about right. There will always be lower quality products trying to undercut it.

And there you go again.....and again .... and again......

 

[vyv_cox]

On the lesser end; unified IACS / RINA materials rules mandate a maximum carbon content of 0.23% for anchors anyway.

Sorry, that's my mistake then: I thought your anchors were heat treated.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

If you load put a Rocna in a test rig and load it up until you start breaking things, you will eventually firstly bend the shank, then probably the fluke, and if you're still able to apply force to it probably finally rip the rode attachment point out of the end of the shank. All before the shank-to-fluke weld is ever troubled. In the real world of course with matching gear you'd have long since busted the shackle or chain..

Dear Craig,

Here's a novel suggestion. Just post the evidence of the test rig trials here on the site. When everyone sees the pictures then you will have made your case. Until then, the cynics may be tempted to believe that you haven't had the confidence to do those trials.

If you then post details of the certification system that will satisfy everyone, without the details it's just your word against others.

Whilst you are at it why not reply to the many specific questions which have been put to you by Manson and others? No bluster, just good straight forward honest answers would be very helpful. Go on, we know you can do it.

Here's a specific question. It's generally recognized that the genuine CQR which is forged is superior to the cast versions....and you have always maintained that "originals" are better than "knock offs" (your words, not mine).
Why is the Rocna cast not forged?

 

[craigsmith]

Sorry, that's my mistake then: I thought your anchors were heat treated.

They are.

 

[vyv_cox]

They are.

Stress-relieved, surely. What is the point of heat treating a steel component with less than 0.23% carbon? Martensite is not produced in a mild steel.

 

[craigsmith]

Of course we're talking about the fluke. The Rocna shank is Q&T low alloy high tensile plate.

 

[TamarMike]

I'm sometimes concerned that the pin securing the folding stock on my bower anchor may drop out allowing it to collapse. I normally secure it in place with a piece of twine but does any of the experts have a better suggestion?

 

[noelex]

Thanks for the replies from Rocna and Fortress its nice to know both of these companies will stand buy their products and cover anchor damage which can occur .
I have heard of several cases of Fortress replacing parts with no fuss and they are to be congratulated for it. It seems Rocna will also replace anchors that are damaged which was not clear and is great to know this is the case.
I don’t have a Manson anchor (although my previous boat did), but hopefully will get an answer from them shortly. If not I will PM them in case they missed the post.
Its difficult to know what a lifetime warranty means until the manufactures make it clear.

We should be grateful that people like Craig and Brian take time to participate in these forums. You wont get Enzo Ferrari responding on too many car forums (although he has got a good excuse now he is dead)

 

[Brian@Fortress]

Thanks for the replies from Rocna and Fortress its nice to know both of these companies will stand buy their products and cover anchor damage which can occur .

I have heard of several cases of Fortress replacing parts with no fuss and they are to be congratulated for it. It seems Rocna will also replace anchors that are damaged which was not clear and is great to know this is the case.

Thanks for your kind words. For the benefit of the readers, I think the warranty questions should be answered for who pays the shipping cost for the return of the damaged anchor back to the factory, and who pays for the shipping cost of the new anchor from the factory to the customer.

Does the customer have to pay shipping both ways.....or just one way? If its both ways, then the value of the warranty might be negated, as it might just be cheaper to go out and buy a new one.

Awhile back I bought a pair of sunglasses that had a lifetime warranty, but when I had a warranty issue, they wanted to charge me in S & H nearly half the cost for what it would have cost for a brand new pair. That didn't sit well with me.

 

[Kilter]

This message is hidden because craigsmith is on your ignore list.

.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Thanks for the replies from Rocna and Fortress its nice to know both of these companies will stand buy their products and cover anchor damage which can occur .
I have heard of several cases of Fortress replacing parts with no fuss and they are to be congratulated for it. It seems Rocna will also replace anchors that are damaged which was not clear and is great to know this is the case.
I don’t have a Manson anchor (although my previous boat did), but hopefully will get an answer from them shortly. If not I will PM them in case they missed the post.
Its difficult to know what a lifetime warranty means until the manufactures make it clear.

We should be grateful that people like Craig and Brian take time to participate in these forums. You wont get Enzo Ferrari responding on too many car forums (although he has got a good excuse now he is dead)

If anchors are really good, why should any parts ever need replacing?