Anchors. I hate to do this but...

[Dockhead]

However facts - a bit more difficult - but I did a tour of the 3 biggest Plymouth marinas and did not need one hand to count the Rocnas. There is the same pattern in Scotland, N Wales and NW England. Yet more Rocna owners contribute and feel the need to mention the name, to threads directly or indirectly related to anchors, than any other brand. Obviously it might be that these owners spend more time on their computers but this seems unlikely. In my survey, of the Plymouth marinas, there are as many or more Spades or Kobras as Rocnas - but they seldom contribute to 'anchor' threads and these brands are not 'in your face' all the time.

You tell me why.


d!

Other than the manufacturers/propagandists, I've never met any sailor who had actually used a new generation anchor or two who thought there was actually much difference between them. I used a Spade for years; now I have a Rocna. Both good. What you will hear, however, from everyone is how much better all of these are compared to older designs.

I agree with the comment about marinas. South Coast sailors mostly sail from marina to marina and don't even get their anchors wet, so the type is not important to most of them.

 

[Twister_Ken]

South Coast sailors mostly sail from marina to marina and don't even get their anchors wet, so the type is not important to most of them.

It does rain, even on the south coast.

And type is important, especially if it's in stainless steel - to do with bragging rights.

 

[Conachair]

Other than the manufacturers/propagandists, I've never met any sailor who had actually used a new generation anchor or two who thought there was actually much difference between them. I used a Spade for years; now I have a Rocna. Both good. What you will hear, however, from everyone is how much better all of these are compared to older designs.

I agree with the comment about marinas. South Coast sailors mostly sail from marina to marina and don't even get their anchors wet, so the type is not important to most of them.

+1!!!

I just had a look round the main & west basin in St Kats. A fair few cqr's, handful of deltas, with a few bruce & danforth/fortress.

Only 3 rocnas

Among the yachts there are 3 obviously long distance cruising boats berthed. They are the ones with the rocnas.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

It looks as if they now have the all clear down under. Let's hope that there are no serious aftershocks.

Back to the fray...

WHERE ON EARTH HAVE YOU COME FROM.........??

I'm not sure that that is particularly relevant.
It strikes me that the general point DjBangi makes is more than relevant. Competitors have been subject to a relentless barrage for years. Hundreds of postings on this site. Hundreds of postings on other boaty sites around the world. Standard practice, when challenged to support the assertions, Rocna simply fail to do so. On this thread Craig talks about the performance of anchors on a test rig. When he is offered the opportunity to put this to the test we see him back peddling faster than Napolean in his retreat from Russia!

Despite all the representations on this site, despite being "affiliated" with Rocna, and despite his claims to knowledge of the inside workings of the company, and he now tells us that he does not represent the company.

Funnily enough I suspect that the Rocna product isn't bad. But it is not unique; it is merely a combination of the Bugel, Spade and, arguably, others shanks. Nothing wrong with that but it does not warrant the attacks on, in particular, Manson who have done no more than Rocna in taking other ideas and adding to them. That's the nature of the competitive world.

Personally, I would prefer it if this thread were to be drawn to a conclusion and Rocna agreed to put up a representative who could then, on a new thread, discuss with Fortress and Manson the relative merits of their products.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

It looks as if they now have the all clear down under. Let's hope that there are no serious aftershocks.

Back to the fray...


I'm not sure that that is particularly relevant.
It strikes me that the general point DjBangi makes is more than relevant. Competitors have been subject to a relentless barrage for years. Hundreds of postings on this site. Hundreds of postings on other boaty sites around the world. Standard practice, when challenged to support the assertions, Rocna simply fail to do so. On this thread Craig talks about the performance of anchors on a test rig. When he is offered the opportunity to put this to the test we see him back peddling faster than Napolean in his retreat from Russia!

Despite all the representations on this site, despite being "affiliated" with Rocna, and despite his claims to knowledge of the inside workings of the company, and he now tells us that he does not represent the company.

Funnily enough I suspect that the Rocna product isn't bad. But it is not unique; it is merely a combination of the Bugel, Spade and, arguably, others shanks. Nothing wrong with that but it does not warrant the attacks on, in particular, Manson who have done no more than Rocna in taking other ideas and adding to them. That's the nature of the competitive world.

Personally, I would prefer it if this thread were to be drawn to a conclusion and Rocna agreed to put up a representative who could then, on a new thread, discuss with Fortress and Manson the relative merits of their products.

Hi Rigger
that particular sentence "WHERE ON EARTH HAVE YOU COME FROM.........??" isolated as you quoted is not relevant. Djbangi's offering as a whole, appeared to me to be very slanted and rude towards a particular manufacturer which rightly or wrongly appeared to me to be wrong and very negative.

After all the mudslinging I guess it best to let independant user experiences, long distance cruisers for example, be the best guide, so that others can then draw their own conclusions.
It does seem that 'independant' testing by magazines etc can never be truly conclusive in everybodys eyes and test data can be used selfishly by those who choose to quote parts seperate from the entirity. .... lies, damn lies and .....etc..



S.

 

[Djbangi]

Almost guilty as charged

It has been suggested I am biased, negative and rude.

The Mouth has been exposed as a charlatan. He has no basis to pontificate on behalf of Holdfast Engineering, the owners of the Rocna design, and when challenged has been unable to provide any credentials as to his sailing and anchoring experiance. Sadly this has not stopped The Mouth over the last years insulting any yachtsman (often with 40 years experiance) with a view different to his, slandering independent testing organisations, damning articles published in respectable yachting magazines, YM, VetV, ST et al, slandering journalists nor stopped him insulting any other anchor maker. And you suggest I am negative and rude - please join the real world.

I fully agree that more long term cruisers have 'better' anchors than you might find in a marina but the proportion of Rocnas to Spades, SARCAs, Fortress and Supremes stays roughly the same, with geographic variations. That does not explain the preponderance of respondents in a number of Forums claiming to own Rocnas. And we sail 2,500nm per year, eschew marinas and we do not see this excess of NZ/Chinese anchors.

Another Forum has investigated the misuse of its site by The Mouth and his 'affiliates' as a mechanism for 'subliminal' advertising and found them wanting. References have been purged and The Mouth 'almost' strangled - to a point where he is having to suggest people change to another forum!

The most interesting part of the exposure of The Mouth has been the muted response in YBW. If such activity took place in the UK the perpetrators, The Mouth and his affiliates, who obviously condone the activity, would be taken to the cleaners.

Frankly I agree there are a number of good modern anchors, we use one and carry others, but if we needed to buy a new one (and yes they are consumables) we would buy from a company with integrity, not one that hides behind and supports a charlatan - and fortunately we have a choice.

Enjoy the rest of the weekend.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

The most interesting part of the exposure of The Mouth has been the muted response in YBW.

Well, the Brits are such gentle fair minded folk . In fairness he has been tolerated on some sites, torn apart on others, and banned from a few. Different reactions in different places; that's the Internet for you.

It's certainly true though that he has stalked the boating forums with remarkable tenacity. So much so that, by Googling his name with a boating term (eg "Craig Smith Anchor"), I have come up with far more boaty forums than I have ever seen before....it's interesting how many there are.

This is what he said on The Alaska Boating Forum (yes, it does exist) in June 2005 when his father had developed the Rocna anchor about 20 minutes previously:-

"River anchoring
Posted by Craig Smith on Jun 14 2005

Let me state at this point that I represent Rocna Anchors, a New Zealand company, which has two ramifications: 1) I am biased, but 2) I probably know what I'm talking about."​

I chuckled at the claim that he "probably knows what he is talking about" but I laughed my socks off at the "I represent Rocna Anchors". As you know, he is now saying:-

I don't represent Rocna Ltd, no.

As you will have worked out, I wholeheartedly agree with the overall gist of what you are saying but I suspect that you are wrong to talk about his "affiliates" if, by that, you mean that he is working in some way with others. Whilst there are some who support him and think he makes a useful contribution, I'm sure that they are sincere (missguided in my view, but sincere). I increasingly think that he is operating on his own. A loose cannon. For whatever reason, uncontrolled by Rocna and unrestrained by his father who has wisely gone sailing around the Oceans.

 

[Djbangi]

loose cannon

In the UK, fair minded though we might be, if I owned Rocna I would take The Mouth to court and chop him off at the knees. So why has this not been done? Maybe things are done differently in NZ - might be interesting to have Manson's comment (accepting they might have just a little bit of bias). Its all a bit sad as the product itself does perform (or did when the NZ products were tested) but I could not buy it out of principal - as I am of the belief, maybe mistaken prove me otherwise, that he has the full support of the current owners of the brand name. One might also think the agents/distributors would be a bit appalled, must be lots of money in anchors. I also suspect he has set up false identities (easy with the internet - I could have lots of gmail addresses) to fill out the numbers - after all if you have time on your hands why not?

Thanks RM - you have restored a lot of my faith! But having been hoodwinked for so long I had thought more YBW members might have reacted with a bit more phlegm.

Yesterday I spent most of the day at the top of the mast - swing mooring, so a bit bruised (as far away from the anchor as one can get and still be on the yacht). Changed the swivel (also did the one on the bowsprit). The main problem was, 2:1, halyard twist. Today we get to see if they work better than the old ones.

Hopefully I might withdraw from the keyboard for the next few weeks and enjoy the water.

Enjoy the day and the ones to follow

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Just been to my yard and a proud new owner of a 'new gen' anchor was just about to go out to his swinging mooring with it, still wrapped up.
"Who's got a new anchor then", "Yes and a good one too" came the reply..... guess whose?
That makes three new ones in my small yard this spring. I wonder if it's catching?

 

[Quandary]

Good idea to keep the bubble wrap round it.

 

[noelex]

Good idea to keep the bubble wrap round it.

It helps stop bending the anchor and subsequent warranty claims.

 

[NormanS]

I always find that the best holding anchors have their makers name or type permanently marked on them. Think of CQR, Bruce etc, where the name is forged onto the anchor.

Where the maker has so little confidence in his product that all he puts on it is a sticky label, then my confidence is similar.

Mind you, one of the several anchors that I carry is a home made 20kg fisherman type, so what would I know?

 

[Ubergeekian]

A point about Cast Iron. That is infact a misleading name. Cast Iron should more correctly be called Cast Steel. In fact during the manufacture of steel the input material is cast iron which is rolled to the shape required. It changes crystalline structure but not chemical makeup which is mainly Iron with a high level of Carbon. The odd one out is Wrought Iron which has had the carbon removed and was the material of choice for Victorian engineers but is rarely seen these days.

Cast iron is different from cast steel. Steel is a mixture of (almost) pure iron and Iron carbide (Fe3C) which is 6.7% carbon by weight. If you have more than 6.7% carbon then some of it will exist as graphite, and that's cast iron.

The ambiguity between iron (the pure element) and iron (the result of smelting, containing lots of carbon) is made worse by the existence of steel between them on the carbon-content spectrum.

To make pig iron into steel you have to get the carbon content down. Blacksmiths can do this by heating it and hammering the bejabers out of it so that carbon on the surface reacts with oxygen in the air. Every since Mr Bessemer it has been made industrially by blowing air or oxygen through molten iron, burning the carbon away.

Wrought iron has a relatively high carbon content: it also has very fine filaments of slag in it, formed by the folding/hammering process, which add toughness and ductility.

 

[Ubergeekian]

I don’t know what caused it to bend or if an alternative anchor would have bent in the same situation.
It does however show the tip strength and the warranty should be of practical concern to anchor buyers. I feel the tip construction of the Rocna is superior to the Manson Supreme.

There have been a couple of pictures of Rocna tips bent up like jester's shoes. The claim that this only happened because they hit a rock is not wholly reassuring, as there are rather a lot of rocks around where I anchor.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Craig, The Mouth, has been insulting yachtsment with 40 years experiance, rejecting any test data from reputable magazines, slandering journalists and denigrating any other anchor manufacturer - but he has no sailing experiance, has never had responsibility for anchoring a yacht (or its crew)...

He annoys the hell of out me, but I have to say that sounds very unfair - Craig has posted some remarkable pictures of sailing trips to wild, exciting places like Tierra del Fuego.

 

[Conachair]

There have been a couple of pictures of Rocna tips bent up like jester's shoes. The claim that this only happened because they hit a rock is not wholly reassuring, as there are rather a lot of rocks around where I anchor.

I looked on google and copuldn't find any, do you have any links?

This is all that came up. 6 tonnes and it didn't break.

We did in fact manage to bend a 25kg Rocna in seabed testing just prior to christmas here in Auckland. This was a new Zealand made anchor.

It was set on an 18mm chain attached to a 16mm wire rope attached to a 150 ton tug with 1000hp exerting 6000kgs of load on an inline certified load cell. The tug was brought to a complete stop and power increased until the anchor broke loose. The amount of pressure applied to this anchor would never be duplicated in any anchoring situation that this anchor is approved for

 

[Ubergeekian]

I looked on google and copuldn't find any, do you have any links?

They were posted here and/or on the PBO forum. A big bend about 15 months ago, iirc, and a much smaller one (just 1/2" or so bent up) more recently.

 

[Conachair]

They were posted here and/or on the PBO forum. A big bend about 15 months ago, iirc, and a much smaller one (just 1/2" or so bent up) more recently.

Well it's beyond the reach of mr google. there was a bent manson which came up but no bent or damaged rocna.

 

[Bajansailor]

And 237 posts ago, the OP asked an innocent (? Ha! I'm sure that TK carefully planned it!) question about Mansons....... good one Ken!

Forget all this new fangled stuff, just get one of these beasts like what Violet has - 200 lbs of fisherman on a 1/2" cable, and you use those levers to operate the hand crank windlass to hoik it all up.

 

[Kilter]

And 237 posts ago, the OP asked an innocent (? Ha! I'm sure that TK carefully planned it!) question about Mansons....... good one Ken!

Forget all this new fangled stuff, just get one of these beasts like what Violet has - 200 lbs of fisherman on a 1/2" cable, and you use those levers to operate the hand crank windlass to hoik it all up.