Anchors. I hate to do this but...

[cliff]

He is Jon Neeves, a supposed writer, who appears to have something to do with Sarca in Australia. He was outed by Snoops talking about himself in the 3rd person on another thread.

If he is, then he is the same gentleman whom you libeled in the Cruisers Forum and the entire thread had to be removed. Remember, your false accusation that he tried to get a free anchor from Rocna for an anchor test and some other fraudulent nonsense?

For someone who is a supposed writer, his article here made interesting reading. A bit of googling turns up other interesting articles - I wonder where the supposed bit comes from? or is this just another attempt by "The Mouth" to defame anyone who dares to disagree with him.

 

[Brian@Fortress]

A bit of googling turns up other interesting articles - I wonder where the supposed bit comes from? or is this just another attempt by "The Mouth" to defame anyone who dares to disagree with him.

Below is the anchor test story written by Jon Neeves which young Craig sought to discredit:

http://www.anchorright.com.au/downloads/Sailing-Today-November-2009-Anchor-Test.pdf

 

[RichardS]

For someone who is a supposed writer, his article here made interesting reading.

Surely the John Neeves who wrote this interesting and balanced article cannot be our colleague Djbangi?

Richard

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Craig has made some useful contributions and offered a lot of helpful advice.

I must admit that I have serious misgivings about that.

From what I have seen, all the postings seem to have been so seriously biased and misleading as to be irrelevant. He has pontificated on so many subjects that I wondered if he was a metallurgist, a mechanical engineer, a production engineer, a welder, a mathematician, a master mariner or an international lawyer in consumer law and intellectual property rights.

In reality, he appears to be none of those. He appears to have no professional qualifications, no role in Rocna (other than a vague "affiliation", whatever that may mean) and no production or management experience. I'm not even convinced that he has any real work experience. The only claim to fame seems to be that he is his fathers' son and has been on a boat skippered by his Dad.

In many ways, none of that matters. What is at stake is the question of the integrity of his postings. Perhaps we will just have to disagree, but I don't think that there is anything of real merit in his postings...... though there have been some pretty pictures of his Dads boat in Antartica.

 

[melandnick]

Happy to disagree Rigger.
After all it would be a rubbish forum if we all thought the same way.


Nick

 

[jimi]

Nick, you're wrong.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Irrespective of the technical merits of this thread, it is certainly compulsive reading. I find myself signing in on a daily basis to get updates. Much better than the Archers or Eastenders.

Slowly it is climbing up the list of threads sorted by "most posts".

Some way to go before it passes the downwind faster than the wind thing though.

Please keep it up.

 

[Djbangi]

Catching up

It is a complement to be taken to be Mr Neeves, I am not sure he would reciprocate the feeling.

I confirm I have no connection with any anchor maker anywhere in the world, have received nor expect any favours from them. I do confess to speaking with anchor makers, or their distributors, at boat shows - but I speak to boat builders and electronic suppliers too. I also confess to owning a number of different design of anchor the older designs are pretty average the newer ones better,

It might merit looking back at the few posts made and it will be noted that I have never passed any comment on the technical merits of any anchor. So why it might be suggested I am showing bias remains a mystery.

On another topic those images of the Rocknas were absolutely magnificent. Where on earth are people using anchors like that?

Enjoy you evening

 

[TamarMike]

Where on earth are people using anchors like that?

Newfoundland

 

[Bajansailor]

Nice anchor. And boat.

Can you tell us more about the boat?

Thanks.

Apologies for the fisherman Fred drift away from Rocknas et al........

Michael, here is a thread I started 3 years ago about bumping into Violet in Bequia :
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145901

And here is a thread started by Swn Y Mor Helen about Violet, with a link to some lovely photos of her:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254325

If you (or anybody else) would like a copy of the article about Violet in Wooden Boat, please PM me an email address and I will send it on - it is 12 scanned sheets, about 200 kbs each (ie not the easiest to read - I was a bit too enthusiastic about reducing them down).

Changing tack (gybing perhaps) back to the Rocky Manson Fortress saga..... carry on chaps, we are all enjoying it immensely!
And has been pointed out earlier, it beats hands down any of the popular soap operas!

 

[Delfin]

Thanks everyone for all the entertainment, and information. I'm in the market for a main anchor for my boat and while I was attracted to the Rocna based on Steve Dashew's ownership of one, I wouldn't consider it now for the following reasons:

1. As Manson has pointed out, welding plate to cast steel is possible, but unless pre-heated and prepped correctly is a very high risk joint. I for one don't want the safety of my vessel dependant on a welder in China making $5/day.
2. Failures of Rocna's galvanizing have been reported. I assume this is also an off shore Q.C. issue. However, if they can't galvanize to the needed standard, what is the likelihood they prepped that plate to cast joint properly before welding?
3. The Rocna, as well as the Spade have excellent holding power because they are essentially self burying buckets. They will hold well, but you also have to deal with a lot of rubbish brought up when retrieving, as well as environmental destruction. Other designs avoid this.
4. Any manufacturer whose founder's son is allowed to track muddy footprints across every boating forum on the planet as Craig Smith is allowed to do may make a good product, but who wants to buy something from people with so little regard for honesty and civil conversation? After all, if Peter can't control his kid's mouth, how can you expect him to control Chinese manufacturing 8,000 miles away?

For my money, the Sarca Excel seems to test better than the Rocna, is more self cleaning on retrieval, easier on the sea bottom and is manufactured by someone who doesn't feel the need to rely on mis-representation of test results, or made up French translations, or simple lies to sell their product, and has actually been making anchors for awhile. As soon as I figure out how to get one shipped at a reasonable price from Oz, that will be my choice. Second would be Manson, because they also present as an ethical company.

By the way, I already have a Fortress as a backup, which is also clearly a great anchor made by professionals.

 

[craigsmith]

For my money, the Sarca Excel seems to test better than the Rocna

Aside from the general theme of re-hashed Sarca PR and apparently agendized disparagement of Rocna, rumor mongering, and general bigotry relating to any mention of the word China; this is the sort of thing that gives away the new user account with single-purpose posts. There has been no independent testing of the Excel. At all.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Thanks everyone for all the entertainment, and information. I'm in the market for a main anchor for my boat...

The Rocna, as well as the Spade have excellent holding power because they are essentially self burying buckets. They will hold well, but you also have to deal with a lot of rubbish brought up when retrieving, as well as environmental destruction. Other designs avoid this.

For my money, the Sarca Excel seems to test better than the Rocna, is more self cleaning on retrieval, easier on the sea bottom....

We happen to have a Spade - as I have mentioned before. I don't understand where you get the idea that Spade's (and Rocna's) which you describe as self burying buckets bring up lots of rubbish. Every anchor I have owned has occasionally brought up a lump of mud off the bottom and I don't understand how you are lead to the conclusion that Spade anchors are especially bad at doing this and Sarca anchors are better? Not wishing to pick a fight over this - I have just never heard this argument offered before.

With our Spade, we occasionally get a bucket and deck brush to clean the anchor and chain but more often if it does come up with crud on it I just let it dangle in the water as we motor or sail away before going forward to stow it properly. I will occasionally get the boat hook and knock a large lump of sticky mud off. Frequently it comes up clean and goes straight onto the bow roller.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I don't want to get into arguments over Rocna anchors - others can plough that furrow.

However I am interested to note the disparaging remarks about China. When I was a child 'Made in Hong Kong' was synonymous with poor quality and the same association seems to be being applied to everything Chinese.

However I was told recently by a senior manufacturer that you can have the finest quality product in the world made in China - you just pay the appropriate price. Quality is driven down by profit margins from those outsourcing production - driving the contract and price down. Pay cheap - you get cheap and quality to match.

There aren't many people who would say that the ipod is a poor quality product - yet where is it made: China.

I am told that many certified engineering instruments are made in China.

The biggest travelling crane in Europe - built for the new carriers dock in Rosyth was made in China.

Is Chinese automatically poor quality? - the answer I am told is not necessarily.

 

[Delfin]

Aside from the general theme of re-hashed Sarca PR and apparently agendized disparagement of Rocna, rumor mongering, and general bigotry relating to any mention of the word China; this is the sort of thing that gives away the new user account with single-purpose posts. There has been no independent testing of the Excel. At all.

You're right, Craig, I am new to this site, but you do know me. I'm the same Delfin on Trawlerforum that corrected you on your assertion that 316 stainless had lower tensile strength than mild steel. Here is what you wrote:

"Specifically, the Ultra is made from 316 stainless, which is a very weak material to build an anchor from. (Tensile strength below mild steel). Read: inadequate."

That was my first tip that you didn't actually know much about metallurgy, which is a useful thing to know if you style yourself an 'Anchorsmith', as you do.

Regarding no testing for the Excel, I guess I could post the video of an Excel beating out two larger Rocnas simultaneously, but I have a hunch you wouldn't be interested. Anyone that is interested can look for it on the Sarca web site.

Don't get me wrong. I think your father's company makes a good product, but the company appears unable to manage you, so I assume it may have difficulty managing offshore production of a piece of equipment my life may depend on.

 

[Delfin]

We happen to have a Spade - as I have mentioned before. I don't understand where you get the idea that Spade's (and Rocna's) which you describe as self burying buckets bring up lots of rubbish. Every anchor I have owned has occasionally brought up a lump of mud off the bottom and I don't understand how you are lead to the conclusion that Spade anchors are especially bad at doing this and Sarca anchors are better? Not wishing to pick a fight over this - I have just never heard this argument offered before.

With our Spade, we occasionally get a bucket and deck brush to clean the anchor and chain but more often if it does come up with crud on it I just let it dangle in the water as we motor or sail away before going forward to stow it properly. I will occasionally get the boat hook and knock a large lump of sticky mud off. Frequently it comes up clean and goes straight onto the bow roller.

All anchors bring up mud; certainly my Bruce does. Concave anchors like the Spade and Rocna will naturally hold onto the mud better than a convex design, don't you think? I wouldn't put that at the top of my list of deal killers for an anchor, but it isn't a new concern. For example:

[Sorry link removed - unauthorised reproduction of YM article]

 

[Delfin]

I don't want to get into arguments over Rocna anchors - others can plough that furrow.

However I am interested to note the disparaging remarks about China. When I was a child 'Made in Hong Kong' was synonymous with poor quality and the same association seems to be being applied to everything Chinese.

However I was told recently by a senior manufacturer that you can have the finest quality product in the world made in China - you just pay the appropriate price. Quality is driven down by profit margins from those outsourcing production - driving the contract and price down. Pay cheap - you get cheap and quality to match.

There aren't many people who would say that the ipod is a poor quality product - yet where is it made: China.

I am told that many certified engineering instruments are made in China.

The biggest travelling crane in Europe - built for the new carriers dock in Rosyth was made in China.

Is Chinese automatically poor quality? - the answer I am told is not necessarily.

John, there is no doubt high quality products are made in China. However, anyone who has been involved in outsourcing manufacturing to China understands that it takes a great deal more supervision to ensure quality than if you turn the project over to a company located in Stuttgart. In electronic manufacturing, there are a great many companies one can hire who have Chinese speaking babysitters to ensure the manufacturing that what comes out the end of the line is what you spec'd. Given the miniscule volume of anchors Rocna would make compared to say, an iPod, there is no particular reason for the manufacturer to go nuts worrying about a flaw or two. Unless of course the company contracting the manufacturer is tightly run and absolutely dedicated to producing quality as an ethical imperative. There's not much in Craig Smith's interactions with folks on this or any other forum that suggests that Rocna is that kind of company. They might be, but you'll forgive me if I'm sceptical.

 

[BrianH]

Failures of Rocna's galvanizing have been reported. I assume this is also an off shore Q.C. issue.

As the one who raised the galvanising problem, I feel I should comment.

Grant King, the then product manager of Rocna (I think family Smith no longer have any part of the company) made the statement that my anchor was a NZ produced one.

The problem eventually revealed was that the deep anchor shank can, on my boat and if not carefully retrieved, strike a step-through dip in the pulpit as it seats on the bow roller. This was chipping off the galvanising exposing the fresh steel - there was no zinc-steel bonding whatsoever.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Aside from the general ....blah, blah....theme of re-hashed ,...... blah blah.... rumor mongering, and general bigotry single-purpose posts....blah, blah..... There has been no independent testing ....blah, blah........At all.

Craig,

You still haven't learnt the lesson. When you set out to bite people, the time will come when they bite back.

 

[snooks]

3. The Rocna, as well as the Spade have excellent holding power because they are essentially self burying buckets. They will hold well, but you also have to deal with a lot of rubbish brought up when retrieving, as well as environmental destruction. Other designs avoid this.

I have a spade, and I don't have to deal with "a lot of rubbish brought up" most of the mud that adorns my deck after a night at anchor comes from off the chain. Unless you're anchoring without a chain, how will any other brand of anchor avoid this?

My anchor will come up with a bit of the sea bed attached to the top of it's flukes, but motoring with the anchor in the water and a couple of well placed prods with the boat hook and it's all gone. If I can't be bothered it will go back in the locker with mud on it. What's the big deal? If I can't deal with a bit of mud, maybe I should give up sailing, of take my boat to a marina and leave it there. Surely thay distroy more of the environment?

Do you have any facts that the Spade destroys more of the environment than any other anchor? I've see other boats drag back in 30 meter lines trying to set, when we held first time. Who's causing more damages then?

Ps I'd rather a bit of sand on my boat, than my boat on the sand!