Anchors. I hate to do this but...

[snowleopard]

When anchoring in harder soils, please be sure to not have the angle set for soft mud, as the anchor is likely to simply bounce along the bottom as you described.

Additionally, please be sure to have the Mud Palms permanently installed on your Fortress anchor, as they will help it set faster in ANY type of sea bottom, and not just in mud.

Both of those were in place on the occasions I had problems.

 

[Brian@Fortress]

Both of those were in place on the occasions I had problems.

Given the sharpness of the anchor, hard to figure why it wouldn't quickly slice its way into the bottom and head for China.

 

[andrewfollett]

yachting monthly teamed up with Sail magazine to do an extensive test some years back.
In order of performance accounting for set and holding, the anchors came out as follows (best to worst) there will be a bit of subjectivity in fine tuning the interpretations since for example the fortress which digs and sets most consistently and holds as well under strain as any, does tend to break out with a veer in wind direction. but essentially, in order

1st fortress
2nd spade
3rd rocna
manson
hydrobubble
delta
bulwagga
bugel
sarca
oceane
cqr
performance 20
claw
xyz

I interpretted the results as showing Fortress as best secondary/kedge with a spade or rocna or manson (which all performed similarly and exceptionally ahead of the rest) as primaries. Its a super extensive test and available for download from YM. Cheers

 

[Brian@Fortress]

Andrew,

I am well familiar with these tests, which were conducted by Chuck Hawley of West Marine and reported in Sail, Power & Motoryacht, and Yachting Monthly in the UK. Attached is the results chart from Yachting Monthly which supports your ranking in this test.

If you or anyone else wishes, I have the actual Excel spreadsheet from this test as well with a pull-by-pull comparison for each anchor, and I can e-mail it to you if you send me a PM with your e-mail address. Unfortunately, it is too large of a file to attach to this message.

For your awareness, they only conducted a few veering pulls in this test, and the Fortress did not break out. For more information on veering tests, here is a link to an extensive test conducted by the US Sailing Foundation where they did straight pulls, 90° pulls, and 180° pulls. See tables #2 and #3:

http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Anchor/anchor_study.htm#INDEX

As you will note, the 24 lb Fortress FX-37 withstood pulls of over 4,000 lbs in each direction. They bent the shank in the process (see attached image), probably during retrieval.....but it still would not break free. From the "Calculated Rode Tension in Wind and Waves" chart they provided, that is a strain a 66' sailboat would encounter in 63 knots of wind....and the testers commented that "boats that size should have bigger anchors." Couldn't agree more.

The next closest anchor in the 90° test was a 43 lb model that held 3,100 lbs, and in the 180° test that same anchor held 2,200 lbs.

Regards,
Brian

Fortress Marine Anchors

 

[Twister_Ken]

I was looking at a 2005 anchor test in Voile magazine the other day. While not necessarily a very well conducted test, it's one of the few times when the popular aluminium anchors have been tested against each other.

They write about the same anchor, the FX-23 (in French): "...this is its main flaw: under a high tension, it puts the odds at dragging quickly without hope of recovery. Our tests on dense sand have given a holding of up to 1,100 kg, then a rapid skid without recovery. ...When it disengages, there is no hope of re-set." On a slightly smaller Guardian, "...If the behavior is identical, its resistance is lower. We only got 700 kg before it dragged quickly."

Bizarrely, I was looking at a Voile test only the other day too, but the 2009 one, and here's what it actually says, in French, about the Fortress:

"On voit très bien qu’elle se plante immédiatement grâce à ses pointes
effilées et que le long jas (82 centimètres !) remplit parfaitement son rôle en
l’empêchant de se mettre sur la tranche – à l’inverse de la Britany, l’autre ancre plate de ce comparatif. Côté performance, nous avons été estomaqués par sa résistance puisqu’elle est montée jusqu’à plus de trois tonnes – l’équivalent d’un force 12 pour un voilier de 12 mètres. Preuve qu’une fois plantée ce sont la surface et la profondeur d’enfouissement d’une ancre qui jouent le plus grand rôle. Une surface qui se paie quand il faut la ranger sur
le pont : ce modèle de Fortress est quasiment impossible à stocker sans le démonter – et le remontage prend pas mal de temps. Quant au fait qu’elle se soit déformée à plus de trois tonnes, c’est un peu normal, surtout pour de l’alu, non ?"

My translation (and sorry, there's a bit of frogyotese that might be over my head)...

"One sees very well that it plants itself immediately thanks to its slender points and the long stock (82cm) filling perfectly its role of preventing it from putting itself on its side - the opposite of the Britany, the other flat anchor in the comparison. As to performance we were flabbergasted by its resistance, for it climbed to over 3 tonnes - the equivalent of a F12 on a 12m sailing boat. Proof that once planted it's the surface area and the depth of burial of an anchor which play the greatest part. Surface area counts when it comes to arranging it on deck; this model of the Fortress is quasi-impossible to stow without dismantling it - and putting it together again takes quite a while. As to the fact that it bent at more than 3 tonnes, that's pretty normal, especially for aluminium, no?"

 

[Rigger Mortice]

My translation (and sorry, there's a bit of frogyotese that might be over my head)...

Well, your translation from French to English is a lot better than the translation of Gibberish to English which Craig still hasn't provided on the other thread!!!

 

[Mansonanchors55]

Amel put Buegels on their boats.


Which Manson?

They make a number of copies, at least five primary types. As always the advice is: stick to the originals.

Here's a comparison of their plough vs a genuine CQR.

Their 'Ray' Bruce copy is not cast as the design is intended to be and massive compromises ensue.

Here's about the Supreme.

Testing in the above material is all independent.

Dear all subscribers.
(Apologies for the repeat post)
Whilst at Manson we rarely choose to answer the misguided ravings of Craig Smith, his remarks above are both inflamatory and completely incorrect. Let us reassure all readers of the following:

Manson proudly stand behind the workmanship and quality of every anchor product we produce and have produced for nearly 40 years.

Question:
Craig have you ever welded anything?
NO.
Do you or anyone in the Rocna company have steel manufacturing experience/degrees in metallurgy or 40 years of experience in fabrication? Any Lloyd's Register Approved welders work for Rocna?
NO.

For you to state that Manson have made cost cutting changes to a product when you have taken your product to China is just ridiculous. Manson didn't copy Rocna, build a bridge and get over yourself. At 24years old you have a lot to learn about life.

The tugboat operator (Thomson Towboats) that conducted the RINA testing with you said you had to return to shore to get replacements when your broke you anchors during testing. FACT.

Please stop misinforming the public about what Manson have and haven't done and promote your product solely on it's own merits. If your product is so good why do you have to defame/denegrate everyone else's product. It isn't good business, it isn't honest and it is simply lying to the public/consumer.

Manson Anchors always have and continue to take the respect given to them by boaters in choosing our product incredibly seriously. An anchor is a safety device and arguably the most important piece of equipment on a boat. We have done this for almost 40 years and can gaurantee that our product is of the highest quality, built using the best quality steel and our staff the highest qualified anchor fabricators in the world. FACT.

Yours faithfully
Manson Anchors

 

[Rigger Mortice]

It's good to see other manufacturers coming here to respond to the endless bile which Rocna are churning out.

It's interesting to see that Craig Smith has now posted more than 650 times on this site. Always pushing his product, invariably knocking competitors.
....That's 650 times he has posted a link to Rocna and he doesn't even have the good grace to put a link to this site on the Rocna website.

 

[Tradewinds]

The tugboat operator (Thomson Towboats) that conducted the RINA testing with you said you had to return to shore to get replacements when your broke you anchors during testing.

Are these the trials referred to here?. The Holdfast man seems very upbeat about his Chinese anchors.

I must say that I'm getting a little weary (& somewhat confused) by all the allegations, counter-allegations etc etc.

I didn't realise that it was such a dog eat dog world when it came to anchoring equipment .

 

[Ubergeekian]

It's good to see other manufacturers coming here to respond to the endless bile which Rocna are churning out.

A while back I wrote to Manson with a detailed question about the metallurgy of the Supreme. I received back a full, courteous, helpful and technically detailed reply - a complete contrast to young Craig's endless streams of bile, and a great recommendation for the Manson company.

 

[oldgit]

On a visit to my local lifeboat on Saturday,a Delta held pride of place on the foredeck.

" Bronze medal awarded to Coxswain/Mechanic Robin Castle when the Lifeboat under his command rescued the 2 occupants of a 16ft day boat in a South Westerly wind in excess of 90 knots and a rough confused sea off the Yantlet Flats."

good enuff for him,good enuff for moi !

 

[Brian@Fortress]

Are these the trials referred to here?. The Holdfast man seems very upbeat about his Chinese anchors.

Yes, the Holdfast man was very upbeat at a trade show last November in Amsterdam, where he told a magazine that "They tested 14 anchors in 3 bottom conditions, and the Rocna came out with 40% greater holding power than the nearest competitor."

Have a look at the 3 charts attached below from the magazines that published the tests that the Holdfast man was referring to, and see if you can make sense of or agree with his claim.

I must say that I'm getting a little weary (& somewhat confused) by all the allegations, counter-allegations etc etc. I didn't realise that it was such a dog eat dog world when it came to anchoring equipment .

It really isn't. I have great respect for my fellow anchor manufacturers and their products. No anchor is perfect for all conditions, including ours, and I am sure that they will all agree with that assessment.

Rocna on the other hand has NO respect for any competitor, and will say and publish anything to disparage a product or harm a competitor's reputation, whether it is true or not, in a desperate effort to sell their product.....which from what I have heard is actually a very good anchor!

Manson's advice was excellent: Promote your product solely on its own merits. Craig Smith of Rocna should smarten up and follow it.

Regards,
Brian

Fortress Marine Anchors

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Manson's advice was excellent: Promote your product solely on its own merits. Craig Smith of Rocna should smarten up and follow it.

Well said that man!
We could then have a sensible and constructive discussion which would be helpful for everyone.

 

[alan_d]

The BBC website currently has an item on 10 essential Tennyson quotes. I couldn't help thinking of Craig when I read number 8:

No man ever got very high by pulling other people down. The intelligent merchant does not knock his competitors. The sensible worker does not work those who work with him. Don't knock your friends. Don't knock your enemies. Don't knock yourself.

 

[craigsmith]

Does that apply to Manson coming onto a public forum and trying to defend themselves against the facts of their copies by telling a few little white ones about their competitor? For example:

Craig have you ever welded anything?
NO.

They don't know this to be true, but it's a red herring argument. I'm not a welder and don't claim to be. Peter, the Rocna designer, and the production engineering people involved in Rocna fabrication, however, have extensive relevent experience.

Do you or anyone in the Rocna company have steel manufacturing experience/degrees in metallurgy or 40 years of experience in fabrication?
NO.

Yes.

Any Lloyd's Register Approved welders work for Rocna?
NO.

Why would they? A strawman argument: Rocna has nothing to do with Lloyd's.

For you to state that Manson have made cost cutting changes to a product when you have taken your product to China is just ridiculous.

There's a significant difference between valid and sensible measures to reduce costing, and those which result in serious flaws in construction, a weaker product, and poorer performance.

At 24years old you have a lot to learn about life.

I know it's just an attempt at waving away anything they don't like hearing by way of condescension, but I'm not 24. Unfortunately not very close to it either anymore

The tugboat operator (Thomson Towboats) that conducted the RINA testing with you said you had to return to shore to get replacements when your broke you anchors during testing. FACT.

This is correct. With a tug capable of a 20 tonne bollard pull, and you're using gear sized for 100 kg anchors, if you hang an anchor up on something on the bottom, and tell the operator to keep increasing the force until something lets go, well something eventually lets go. I would like to know if Manson also know about the cracked welds on the Supreme we were testing, the result of the upper plate of the thin laminated fluke distorting?

~

I think it's unfortunate when a manufacturer who has no inhouse design talent, and produces only knock-offs of others' designs, resorts to fabricating their own version of the truth when the people they injure let the cat out of the bag rather than quietly going away. Rather than discussing the serious issues with their own product(s), they attempt to mislead the public about the very product they copied and are trying to undermine - all the while shouting disparagement.

 

[Conachair]

Ask any cruiser with any anchor about confidence in the product and you'll find plenty. How many cruisers, after all, would keep an anchor in which they had no confidence?

Lets rephrase that then, ask cruisers who swapped from a cqr to a new gen when they started appearing on the scene and see what the answers are.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

. Rather than discussing the serious issues with their own product(s),

Delighted to hear that you want a serious discussion.
Perhaps you could start by addressing the questions which have been put to you about the "science" which you present on this site?
Then we'll progress to anomolies in your arguements.

 

[Kilter]

Well said Manson and Brian.

@Craig you are about to become the second person on my ignore list

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

On a visit to my local lifeboat on Saturday,a Delta held pride of place on the foredeck.

" Bronze medal awarded to Coxswain/Mechanic Robin Castle when the Lifeboat under his command rescued the 2 occupants of a 16ft day boat in a South Westerly wind in excess of 90 knots and a rough confused sea off the Yantlet Flats."

good enuff for him,good enuff for moi !

Ah, but do lifeboats ever use their anchors?
Do the crew ever sleep overnight on it with no one on watch?
Do they anchor it of an inhospitable coastline, row ashore and then go to the pub?

 

[double_ender]

Again well said Manson and Brian.
I completely applaud your contributions in the face of the never ending wretching rhetoric from the antibodes.
I have been very firmly stuck in with a Spade for over 10 yrs (probably >1000nights on Scottish west coast); Its good to see at last bit of balance in the posts
Malcolm