davidej
Well-known member
Send a PM to Ferroboat, who is a friend of mine and has owned a similar sized professionally built boat for some years.
He loves it to death.
He loves it to death.
Advise with purchasing/owning ferrocement boat
- Thread starter seadago
- Start date
Clarky
New member
Interesting thread which has also changed my view of ferro. The Hartley above looks very nice.
Gordonmc
Active member
My experiences of ferro boats go back to looking at an Endurance which was stuck on the market at an improbably low asking price. It was my first experience of the prejudice surrounding the medium which came to the fore recently in a mega-thread on the Cruiser forum. It is worth a search.
In the end I was scared off the Endurance both by the doom-sayers and, to a lesser extent the teak deck which was shot.
Wind forward five years ebay presented me with another ferro - a John Samson ketch advertised as a Sea Breeze and lying in a sorry state in Liverpool.
After an eighteen month refit including re-powering I launched last July:
Some opinions on the points raised by the OP:
a). On the whole the predjudices are voiced by peeps who have never had experience of the medium but who are keen to repeat some of the horror stories. I don't mind. It makes ferro a very affordable proposition.
b). If resale value is important then ferro may not be for you. I want a boat with good accommodation and sea-keeping qualities for the long haul and don't expect to buy another boat. Ever. (he said).
e). It is a falacy that ferro is uninsurable. Finding a surveyor qualified to pass an opinion may be more of a test, but the insurance companies are generally happy to take your money.
g). Substantial damage to a ferro hull is probably easier to repair than most other media. If the steel work is not exposed it will generally be a surface skim. Exposed armature (rebar) and mesh is cut out if gone to rust with new armature welded in and mesh interleaved. Technology has moved on significantly on the use of repair mortar. We have moved on from portland cement and sand, through a mix with vinyl to cement and epoxy mix. I use a commercially available product, developed to repair motorway bridges after collisions.
h). On-going maintenance should work out substantially cheaper than for fibre-glass, wood, alloy and certainly steel. Occasionally a strand of mesh will bleed rust on the hull. I just grind it down to clean metail, apply rust neutraliser and a coat of Zinga then fill with mortar and repaint. Rubber chloride paint is recommended for new hulls but I use anything that takes my fancy. The hull is presently done with Toplac. Only the steering gear and prop is protected with anodes. None of the through-hull fittings (bronze) are wired.
i). Interior bulkheads will be in ply through bolted onto ferro dams, so there should be no problem routing cables and pipes. Adding through-hull fittings is interesting. Sods law says that wherever you choose it will have a section of armature under the surface which will need to be side-stepped. On decks I have cut out small sections of armature but I would be reluctant to do it on the hull. A hammer drill and wire cutters are usually sufficient and I have never had the surrounding material break up, even when having to resort to a cold chisel. A recommendation for major structural repairs is to hold a lump hammer on one side of the hull and pulverise the concrete with a hammer from the other.
I hope these experiences are of help in your decision making. Overall going the ferro route has enabled me to own a boat of a size and capability which I would not be able to afford otherwise.
If I can help in any other way send a pm.
In the end I was scared off the Endurance both by the doom-sayers and, to a lesser extent the teak deck which was shot.
Wind forward five years ebay presented me with another ferro - a John Samson ketch advertised as a Sea Breeze and lying in a sorry state in Liverpool.
After an eighteen month refit including re-powering I launched last July:
Some opinions on the points raised by the OP:
a). On the whole the predjudices are voiced by peeps who have never had experience of the medium but who are keen to repeat some of the horror stories. I don't mind. It makes ferro a very affordable proposition.
b). If resale value is important then ferro may not be for you. I want a boat with good accommodation and sea-keeping qualities for the long haul and don't expect to buy another boat. Ever. (he said).
e). It is a falacy that ferro is uninsurable. Finding a surveyor qualified to pass an opinion may be more of a test, but the insurance companies are generally happy to take your money.
g). Substantial damage to a ferro hull is probably easier to repair than most other media. If the steel work is not exposed it will generally be a surface skim. Exposed armature (rebar) and mesh is cut out if gone to rust with new armature welded in and mesh interleaved. Technology has moved on significantly on the use of repair mortar. We have moved on from portland cement and sand, through a mix with vinyl to cement and epoxy mix. I use a commercially available product, developed to repair motorway bridges after collisions.
h). On-going maintenance should work out substantially cheaper than for fibre-glass, wood, alloy and certainly steel. Occasionally a strand of mesh will bleed rust on the hull. I just grind it down to clean metail, apply rust neutraliser and a coat of Zinga then fill with mortar and repaint. Rubber chloride paint is recommended for new hulls but I use anything that takes my fancy. The hull is presently done with Toplac. Only the steering gear and prop is protected with anodes. None of the through-hull fittings (bronze) are wired.
i). Interior bulkheads will be in ply through bolted onto ferro dams, so there should be no problem routing cables and pipes. Adding through-hull fittings is interesting. Sods law says that wherever you choose it will have a section of armature under the surface which will need to be side-stepped. On decks I have cut out small sections of armature but I would be reluctant to do it on the hull. A hammer drill and wire cutters are usually sufficient and I have never had the surrounding material break up, even when having to resort to a cold chisel. A recommendation for major structural repairs is to hold a lump hammer on one side of the hull and pulverise the concrete with a hammer from the other.
I hope these experiences are of help in your decision making. Overall going the ferro route has enabled me to own a boat of a size and capability which I would not be able to afford otherwise.
If I can help in any other way send a pm.
Sandyman
Well-known member
Correct. The same thing can be said about steel. Usual doom & gloom merchants who spout out long held beliefs about rust being a killer because they know nothing of modern corrosion preventives, paints & coatings.
I also believe a lot of these prejudices come about because of peoples lack of knowledge & skills. They listen to poorly informed peeps & take it as fact.
Lets face it, most have to resort to the local boatyard to get a simple gel-coat repair done, so its understandable.
PS. Nice looking boat. She looks really strong & seaworthy. Long keel ?
SHUG
Active member
If it was built in the 80ties then any serious faults would have emerged by now and show up as sinister bulges or staining. The best ferro yachts are the ones where you have to be told that it's ferro construction as the trim and finish are immaculate.
There was a rumour that ferro yachts were difficult to insure but I would hope that if the survey is good then that shouldn't be a problem.
Best of luck!!
There was a rumour that ferro yachts were difficult to insure but I would hope that if the survey is good then that shouldn't be a problem.
Best of luck!!
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Boo2
Well-known member
Advantages :
- They're cheap
- There is no 2
- They look cheap (with occasional exceptions as posted by VicS and Jonic)
- Everything else
This is a second-hand story (the chap who built it used to sit at the desk beside me at work). Puts me off ferro completely...
Well, that might be its saving grace but I'd buy GF, Steel or Ally personally and cut my cloth to suit my budget rather then buying a big boat just because the initial purchase cost was lower IIWY.
Good luck,
Boo2
barnaclephill
New member
Without reading the link, I got the impression he died, then I got to reading it.
My question is would the same have happened to any other vessel (esp grp or timber) with the same draft and weight, caught in the same towing/tide/shallow position? Of course it would. It's prejudice.
BobPrell
Well-known member
I agree.
pagoda
Active member
AHHH if only all ferro boats looked like that
There's a gorgeous ferro-cement boat sits in East Loch Tarbert (Loch Fyne), by the name of "Blue Circle". In a stunning light blue. I have no idea if she was self-built or from a known builder, but the standard of finish is excellent.
Mine is of course GRP...
Boo2
Well-known member
Don't think so. The boat in the link ran aground and when the tide went out settled on a post. Would that punch a hole through a GF hull below the waterline ? I am quietly confident the inch and a half of solid GF in my boat would stand that.
Boo2
BrianH
Active member
This is typical, judging an entire construction method on a single, poorly-built example. So has ferro-cement construction been damned.
I'd guess that the subject hull was both amateur designed and built with inadequate steel framing as it appears that the post lay vertically under mesh alone - of course it penetrated with the ponderously overweight hull. It even looks amateur without even a fair finish to the topsides and it probably was over plastered, which adds no strength only weight, and came in very heavy for its length.
As I wrote in the other thread, a ferro-cement hull should basically be a steel one with the cement just to keep the water out. Your friend's one was not one like that. And that is why properly designed and constructed ones unfairly get a bad name.
Gordonmc
Active member
KellysEye
Active member
We know a Kiwi Ferro boat owner who did a seven year circumnavitation in it. I asked about the boat's integrity etc. Basic points he made were:
- easy to repair any damage to the cement.
- the structural integrity is the the steel mesh, if it rusts the hull will fail. The problem is how to know if it is apart from knocking a few holes in the concrete, see first point.
- go anywhere, sea kindly, heavy displacement thus obviously not fast.
Generally the annual cost of maintenance is up to 10% of the boat's value, particularly if you are going long disatance sailing - just about everything will break more than once except rigging and modern electronics. Not sure why you mention gelcoat Ferro boats are usually painted.
>can I drill a hole in a bulkhead to install a piece of gear without fracturing the cement all around?
His boat had teak bulkheads but I don't know how they were attached to the hull. Drilling into wood would be fine but I wouldn't drill into the concrete.
We have seen some beautiful Ferro boats that you would not know were Ferro, as above.
- easy to repair any damage to the cement.
- the structural integrity is the the steel mesh, if it rusts the hull will fail. The problem is how to know if it is apart from knocking a few holes in the concrete, see first point.
- go anywhere, sea kindly, heavy displacement thus obviously not fast.
Generally the annual cost of maintenance is up to 10% of the boat's value, particularly if you are going long disatance sailing - just about everything will break more than once except rigging and modern electronics. Not sure why you mention gelcoat Ferro boats are usually painted.
>can I drill a hole in a bulkhead to install a piece of gear without fracturing the cement all around?
His boat had teak bulkheads but I don't know how they were attached to the hull. Drilling into wood would be fine but I wouldn't drill into the concrete.
We have seen some beautiful Ferro boats that you would not know were Ferro, as above.
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jwilson
Well-known member
From the look of the pictures of "this" it was a very badly built ferro boat indeed. Horrible external finish, and virtually no steel armature in the hole. You cannot compare a bad amateur ferro hull to a properly built one. And some amateur built boats are fine - a friend of mine built one himself and has since circumnavigated in it.
Yachtmaster Insurance will insure ferro.
BrianH
Active member
It's a long time since I seriously considered building a ferro-cement hull but what I did learn in preparation is that the "steel mesh" is just the clipped-on medium attached between the ribs/frames/stringers for the cement to bond onto (armature?); it provides no intrinsic strength, which relies entirely on the matrix of thicker steel. In fact, in my day, one used galvanised chicken wire fencing.
This is why I commented about the holed hull pierced by a pole through what I speculated was in an area of mesh/armature only.
mesh · n.
1 material made of a network of wire or thread.
2 an interlaced structure.
armature · n.
2 a framework on which a clay sculpture is moulded.
1 material made of a network of wire or thread.
2 an interlaced structure.
armature · n.
2 a framework on which a clay sculpture is moulded.
pappaecho
New member
As a young Cement works chemist, I reluctantly got involved in the mix design for several DIY build Ferrocement boats in the Medway area in the 1970's.
As long as the mix design and the water cement ratio is right, a concrete boat is as durable as GRP or steel.
In the second world war, ferrocement barges were built in the US and Canada, and towed across the Atlantic filled with grain. These were built as a "one way" trip basis, and yet most harbour in the UK still have them licking aroung. There are many in the Portsmouth area.
In Kent in the 1990s, The Segas Sailing Club on the Medway sank two to act as a small breakwater. It took two days witha jack hammer to hole the hull! So well built and still going 60 years on!
The problems with Ferrocement are largely due to bad practice. All the Ferro bits must be protected with the cement bit. If not done properly, corrosion creeps up the steel, which then expands causing the surface to blister. This is exactly the same problem which exists with bridges called "concrete cancer"
A good surveyor will identify this, and the absence in a boat built 30 years ago will mean that it is unlikely that problems will occur in the future.
Drilling of Ferrocement means diamond tips bits, because you will have to drill both Masonry and steel. That said it will not cause any special problems of cracking as you mentioned.
Like a steel boat, you need to consider carefully the galvanic potential, and provide a good bonding system for metal works such as skin fittingsm prop etc.
Ferrocement does not have a gel coat! Epoxy is the best coating followed by antifoul in the usual way.
Ferrocement does not suffer from marine borers, wet rot, osmosis, corrosion and rust.
A good hull should see you out!
As long as the mix design and the water cement ratio is right, a concrete boat is as durable as GRP or steel.
In the second world war, ferrocement barges were built in the US and Canada, and towed across the Atlantic filled with grain. These were built as a "one way" trip basis, and yet most harbour in the UK still have them licking aroung. There are many in the Portsmouth area.
In Kent in the 1990s, The Segas Sailing Club on the Medway sank two to act as a small breakwater. It took two days witha jack hammer to hole the hull! So well built and still going 60 years on!
The problems with Ferrocement are largely due to bad practice. All the Ferro bits must be protected with the cement bit. If not done properly, corrosion creeps up the steel, which then expands causing the surface to blister. This is exactly the same problem which exists with bridges called "concrete cancer"
A good surveyor will identify this, and the absence in a boat built 30 years ago will mean that it is unlikely that problems will occur in the future.
Drilling of Ferrocement means diamond tips bits, because you will have to drill both Masonry and steel. That said it will not cause any special problems of cracking as you mentioned.
Like a steel boat, you need to consider carefully the galvanic potential, and provide a good bonding system for metal works such as skin fittingsm prop etc.
Ferrocement does not have a gel coat! Epoxy is the best coating followed by antifoul in the usual way.
Ferrocement does not suffer from marine borers, wet rot, osmosis, corrosion and rust.
A good hull should see you out!
ukmctc
New member
There are a few knocking around, unfortuneately here in the UK a lot were home built, and not well. There are loads in the Med and I know there are lots in NZ and USA, they reckon they make the best liveaboards.
Good luck with the hunt.
Insurance companies here don't seem to like them either, so check that out too.
ah yes, Tollesbury. Woodrolfe Road there is a man there who builds them still and does repairs, very good at it too.
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Wino
Member
I was present when a slightly damaged ferro hull ( hole around 5" - 6") was examined then written off as a total loss by a surveyor representing the insurance company. Both myself and its owner were shocked as we thought he would recommend a repair.
He explained his decision -
(a) it is impossible to match the original ferro mix, either in its constituents or its age, a repair will nearly always be obvious after a time
(b) it is impossible to clean the steel completely clear of rust, it may not be evident but water - particularly salt - will have been in contact with the steel and 'crept' back into the adjoining ferro causing corrosion and eventual concrete cancer this may cause the repair 'to blow' at some time in the future - as he said not something you would want if a few miles out at sea which is why insurance companies are so wary of covering this type of hull
He explained his decision -
(a) it is impossible to match the original ferro mix, either in its constituents or its age, a repair will nearly always be obvious after a time
(b) it is impossible to clean the steel completely clear of rust, it may not be evident but water - particularly salt - will have been in contact with the steel and 'crept' back into the adjoining ferro causing corrosion and eventual concrete cancer this may cause the repair 'to blow' at some time in the future - as he said not something you would want if a few miles out at sea which is why insurance companies are so wary of covering this type of hull
saxonpirate
Active member
Very interesting thread and not one I can add a lot to technically as most has been already been covered.
I will say though that I had a very good South African friend called Dick who I met in the late 80's who built a Hartley 39 in South Africa and sailed thousands of ocean miles in it. Together with his wife Heather and their two young sons they lived on and sailed that boat for at least 12 years before turfing up in Falmouth UK to swallow the hook. When they came to sell it there were no takers, and if I remember correctly his younger son took it, and along with some mates set sail for the West Indies...
Any boat that's not the norm, of whatever material, a one off, will be hard to shift in a market today that's dominated by brands, no matter how well built. As with all things, it really depends what you want it for, and how deep your pockets are...
I will say though that I had a very good South African friend called Dick who I met in the late 80's who built a Hartley 39 in South Africa and sailed thousands of ocean miles in it. Together with his wife Heather and their two young sons they lived on and sailed that boat for at least 12 years before turfing up in Falmouth UK to swallow the hook. When they came to sell it there were no takers, and if I remember correctly his younger son took it, and along with some mates set sail for the West Indies...
Any boat that's not the norm, of whatever material, a one off, will be hard to shift in a market today that's dominated by brands, no matter how well built. As with all things, it really depends what you want it for, and how deep your pockets are...
ffiill
Active member
Tend to be either good or bad.
Once looked at a home built Hartley-looked really good then I began to hear stories.
It had been built but never fitted out;bought and fitted out for world travel the boat got no further than south of the uk because it had been heavily overbuilt and wallowed horrendously in a big sea.Having said this its probably still out there.
There was and probably still is one ashore by the Quay in Lancaster?
Its shape and standard of manufacture must have once upon a time been perfect BUT it was lifted out in the early 80s still there in the early 2000s by which time the timber work had gone to ruin as had a really good engine-all that was really left was this almost perfect hull shape-get one like that in good order and you are well away.
Once looked at a home built Hartley-looked really good then I began to hear stories.
It had been built but never fitted out;bought and fitted out for world travel the boat got no further than south of the uk because it had been heavily overbuilt and wallowed horrendously in a big sea.Having said this its probably still out there.
There was and probably still is one ashore by the Quay in Lancaster?
Its shape and standard of manufacture must have once upon a time been perfect BUT it was lifted out in the early 80s still there in the early 2000s by which time the timber work had gone to ruin as had a really good engine-all that was really left was this almost perfect hull shape-get one like that in good order and you are well away.