Advise with purchasing/owning ferrocement boat

[seadago]

Hello everyone
I'd like to ask the opinion of contributors about relative advantages of buying and owning a ferrocement-built boat, as well as good designs built with this material.
Before I get my head chewed off, I've been doing a fair amount of research (including in this and other forae) regarding ferrocement built boats, pro and cons. Must say much of what I've read sounds a lot like prejudice about the building material itself, and third-hand horror stories, from hull breaching on coral to lightening strikes!
So, to frame the debate and save everyone's time, I'd like to make some precisions:
a) If it makes any difference, boat I'm looking at is a Hartley 39 design, early 80's, build professionally (i.e. no DIY job) in Holland. Based on this, and pending survey and detail inspection, I presume it has been well built!
b) I'm not looking to buy this boat as an investment. Just as I never bought a motorcar as an investment. Hence, resale value is a relatively low consideration
c) Overall this boat (the Hartley) is attractive at the advertised price because it offers (apparent) solidity, seaworthiness, and 25% more footage for the same price that I would be able to get on a GRP-built boat of comparable age.
d) I've done the budgeting for berthing costs in the UK for a 39 footer against price equivalents (ca. 33 footer) in GRP. The the TCO numbers add up over 5 years.
e) I know insurance is a problem, though not insurmountable.
f) I know surveys are expensive, difficult, and experienced surveyors hard to come by.
The above said, what I do NOT know is:
g) How easy/difficult is to effect relatively modest structural repairs and maintenance on these hulls, i.e. the normal seasonal stuff an wear and tear that I or any boatyard in the country could reasonably do (not how to fix a hull breach on hard coral or a lightening strike!)
h) How expensive to own in terms of regular maintenance, materials, gelcoating, antifouling, paint, etc, particularly regarding electrolytic damage?. Let’s assume the boat has no major problems to begin with.
i) How easy/difficult to modify/customise interior if required (i.e. can I drill a hole in a bulkhead to install a piece of gear without fracturing the cement all around? etc)
j) If anyone has experience of Hartleys, any weak points of design, performance, handling or behaviour? In here I'm talking about the design itself, not the build material. Any tips much appreciated.
WOW! a lot to ask from everyone, but any opinion and advise HUGELY appreciated
Many thanks
seadago

 

[MrCramp]

You probably won't get many (any??) replies on this subject as there are hardly any ferroboat owners on the forum. Hartley and Samson are the best know designers. Have you looked at the ferroboat web site, link follows.
http://www.ferroboats.com/

 

[boguing]

In the late 70s, Windboats in Norfolk were the bigger UK ferro builder. Hartley, in Kent, were second (although not by much). As an aside, it does seem that Geography, for some reason has stopped Kent from ever producing a successful yacht builder?

Neither yard were stupid and produced boats far and away better than that which most people imagine.

Damage repair? Concrete has to be the easiest material to obtain and use.

Electrolysis is a whole different subject which I wouldn't comment on. No knowledge.

 

[No Regrets]

I read a long article about it a few years ago, the opinions were that a good one would be a good boat, a bad one a potential death trap and nightmare.

Apparently some people built their own!?

Dunno if that helps?

 

[No Regrets]

http://www.ferroboats.com/

 

[VicS]

Can't answer any of the questions but its good excuse to post this picture of a "ferro" boat.

100% DIY job.

 

[saltylegs]

AHHH if only all ferro boats looked like that

 

[Tranona]

Welcome to the forum

The low value of such boats on the secondhand market really answers your question. Of course it is prejudice, because such boats are of very variable quality, not well understood and folks are happier to spend their hard earned money on something that is better understood and valued. Much the same prejudice applies to steel boats, for similar reasons. The low material costs encouraged many people to build their own boats with varying success, often to designs that were not mainstream. Does not mean all are bad, but neither material has any significant advantage over GRP for most applications. There are, of course applications where ferro and steel have some advantages, but if you are buying you need to be convinced those advantages outweigh the disadvantages for you.

You have already identified some of the pros and cons of ferro which are linked both to the unreliability of the method of construction and the variability of fitout. The type of design is also restricted by the nature of the material, and is often chosen because similar designs do not have a big market so are not available with the more popular methods of construction.

Having said all that, if you recognise the limitations and the boat is of a type you like and you can satisfy yourself that it was properly built and maintained then go for it, However as you have probably found many boats of this type lie abandoned in the back of boatyards, unloved but too robust to rot away!

 

[jonic]

I have this ferro boat at the moment and have been through it with the builder who re-fitted it and read a detailed survey. It is extremely well built and the survey is very good indeed, with the surveyor recommending the boat highly.

I think if you find a good professionally built one, they can be exceptional value.

Forumite Codstewart has a ferro boat, maybe pm her about this thread.

 

[sarabande]

wow, Ionic, that is some boat. And if you put that video together, what a good one to sell her.

 

[White Horse]

Mike Peyton built and sailed them. His accounts of building can be found in some of his books. Basically a load of rusty mesh, a frame and lots of people to handle the cement mix From what I remember in his books he said that 40ft was about the lower limit for ferro. He has just sold his last one, I think it was call Tombstone but maybe wrong

 

[barnaclephill]

The above said, what I do NOT know is:

g) How easy/difficult is to effect relatively modest structural repairs and maintenance on these hulls, i.e. the normal seasonal stuff an wear and tear that I or any boatyard in the country could reasonably do (not how to fix a hull breach on hard coral or a lightening strike!)

h) How expensive to own in terms of regular maintenance, materials, gelcoating, antifouling, paint, etc, particularly regarding electrolytic damage?.

i) How easy/difficult to modify/customise interior if required (i.e. can I drill a hole in a bulkhead to install a piece of gear without fracturing the cement all around? etc)

I know/read that epoxy sticks to ferro and that the coppercoat systems are fine for it, so that (epoxy) will seal the hull, though the material seals out water anyway, but it will also cut down on yearly a/fouling.

A friend had his smash against a jetty one long night. He said that he had some percussion tool to break up the pieces (still attached to the iron mesh) so that he had a clean and solitary patch to patch up. With the rust on the damaged keel (not from the jetty incident) he said that he had this needle percussion thing, air driven, that shot out needle-like rods to similary break off the cement, and start to clear the rust off the ironwork before galvanising and then re-concreting. Maybe something similar could be used to make bolt holes, in lieu of a single drill bit and the stresses involved.

I'm told that if holed, the concrete will largely remain on the mesh, so you apply powdered/slurry cement to the damage, like is said about sawdust plugging leaks, as a temporary fix.
That's all I know. Was looking/tempted to buy one or 2 of them. Another friend's 28' ferro sailed faster than my 26' steely.

Three pages now uploaded to http://s1136.photobucket.com/albums/n491/barnaclephill/#!cpZZ1QQtppZZ24 from PBO starting with the one "sold on cement" on page 1.

 

[BobPrell]

Hello everyone
I'd like to ask ... about relative advantages of buying and owning a ferrocement-built boat.
I've been doing a fair amount of research.... what I've read sounds a lot like prejudice about the building material itself, and third-hand horror stories.

I'll bet you have have already seen most of the sites suggested in this thread. The sites seem mostly to have fairly old information and the forums are where the prejudice is to be found.

a) If it makes any difference, boat I'm looking at is a Hartley 39 design, early 80's, build professionally (i.e. no DIY job) in Holland. Based on this, and pending survey and detail inspection, I presume it has been well built!

Is it this one? http://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/224179/
I am very impressed with appearance, design, equipment and PRICE.
This said from Australia, I don't look at world broker sites that much.

 

[BobPrell]

e) I know insurance is a problem, though not insurmountable.
f) I know surveys are expensive, difficult, and experienced surveyors hard to come by.

You have done some research, good. I feel the main problem for insurers is the lack of surveyors.
Yacht surveyors mostly come from the ranks of shipwrights. Shipwrights do not, generally, build ferro boats. So there are few ferro surveyors.

The above said, what I do NOT know is:
g) How easy/difficult is to effect relatively modest structural repairs and maintenance on these hulls.

Barnaclephil has answered that pretty well. The principle is the same as any other material. Remove the damaged material. Replace with new material in such a way as to be firmly fixed to the old. The fact that existing mesh and metal armature may not need to be removed, is a great advantage.

h) How expensive to own in terms of regular maintenance, materials, gelcoating, antifouling, paint, etc, particularly regarding electrolytic damage?. Let’s assume the boat has no major problems to begin with.

None of these things should be different to any other material.

 

[BobPrell]

j) If anyone has experience of Hartleys, any weak points of design, performance, handling or behaviour? In here I'm talking about the design itself, not the build material.
seadago

In Australia, there are a fair few Hartleys about, mostly of a recognizable older (60s, 70s) type with flared bows.

The newer ones such as http://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/224179/ mentioned above

look more conventional. Of course they do not look like modern AWBs because AWBs are not heavy displacement boats.

In Conclusion,

for me, the maddening thing about the ferro scene is that I can't find a builder, anywhere, who is currently building ferro yachts. I would like to visit a physical or web site to see what goes on.

A friend who recently visited China, said that he saw a number of ferro sampans in the canals being used for rubbish collection before the Olympic games. There was a factory that turns them out on a production basis. I can't find any more details or I might just import one.

I have sailed a few hundred nms on other people's ferro yachts and liked them for that sturdy, steady feeling and quiet down below in heavy weather. I have seen a couple of examples that in appearance, anyone would be proud to own.

I would have one except that there are no shallow-draft types available, which would suit my home cruising area.

 

[jonic]

wow, Ionic, that is some boat. And if you put that video together, what a good one to sell her.

Thanks.I am experimenting with video and I think I'm going to start doing it for all my boats.

The yacht is absolutely lovely and totally changed my view on ferro.
For the OP the name of the surveyor is David Cox in Cornwall.

 

[BrianH]

I contributed this on a previous thread. A shortened extract:

"The problem with any ferro-cement hull, particularly an amateur build with no provenance, comes from the difficulty of knowing if the critical mixing, pouring and setting techniques have been correctly observed and that's after an adequate steel frame and ribs have been properly welded up. Most importantly, that the mix is applied evenly, internally vibrated through for the team of expert plasterers to fair the hull with sufficient layer over the steel mesh and framing - and all in one application. Only a sectional destruction test will assure that was complied with and that there were no voids - in that section."​

If you read the entire posting you will see that a professional build does not guarantee correct construction.

 

[oldsaltoz]

http://www.hamiltonisland.com.au/whitsundays-sailing/

Banjo Paterson is a ferro craft that raced in the Sydney to Hobart a few times and did pretty well, nor retired she is a charter vessel last time I saw her was at Hamilton Island in the Whitsunday island group (Oz).

There a lot of horror stories about ferro yachts but old Banjo still sails on.

The coating with an epoxy seems to be a must as it prevent moisture and also reduces rusting of the internal steel (or chicken wire).

Some of the pro build Ferro yachts had the inside and outside treated with cement and water, no sand; this was how they waterproofed concrete tanks and the old cement laundry troughs tears ago.

The do handle rough conditions well primarily due to the total weight of the construction material, sadly this also means they can have trouble sailing out of sight on a dark night.

Very few have any Gel-coat as the cost of an epoxy based gel-coat is prohibitive and standard resin gel-coat will stick long term to an epoxy base.

Safer to glue a mounting board to a cement bulkhead rather than drilling as this can expose the steel and cause rusting.

Good luck and fair winds.

 

[Monique]

http://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/224179/

I could live with a lot of prejudice for a yacht like this.

Have you looked at it personally?

The Dutch are much like the Germans and the Swiss; if they do something, they do it right. This is a lot of value for your money.. IMO of course.

GL

 

[jwilson]

Hello everyone
I'd like to ask the opinion of contributors about relative advantages of buying and owning a ferrocement-built boat, as well as good designs built with this material.
Before I get my head chewed off, I've been doing a fair amount of research (including in this and other forae) regarding ferrocement built boats, pro and cons. Must say much of what I've read sounds a lot like prejudice about the building material itself, and third-hand horror stories, from hull breaching on coral to lightening strikes!
So, to frame the debate and save everyone's time, I'd like to make some precisions:
a) If it makes any difference, boat I'm looking at is a Hartley 39 design, early 80's, build professionally (i.e. no DIY job) in Holland. Based on this, and pending survey and detail inspection, I presume it has been well built!
b) I'm not looking to buy this boat as an investment. Just as I never bought a motorcar as an investment. Hence, resale value is a relatively low consideration
c) Overall this boat (the Hartley) is attractive at the advertised price because it offers (apparent) solidity, seaworthiness, and 25% more footage for the same price that I would be able to get on a GRP-built boat of comparable age.
d) I've done the budgeting for berthing costs in the UK for a 39 footer against price equivalents (ca. 33 footer) in GRP. The the TCO numbers add up over 5 years.
e) I know insurance is a problem, though not insurmountable.
f) I know surveys are expensive, difficult, and experienced surveyors hard to come by.
The above said, what I do NOT know is:
g) How easy/difficult is to effect relatively modest structural repairs and maintenance on these hulls, i.e. the normal seasonal stuff an wear and tear that I or any boatyard in the country could reasonably do (not how to fix a hull breach on hard coral or a lightening strike!)
h) How expensive to own in terms of regular maintenance, materials, gelcoating, antifouling, paint, etc, particularly regarding electrolytic damage?. Let’s assume the boat has no major problems to begin with.
i) How easy/difficult to modify/customise interior if required (i.e. can I drill a hole in a bulkhead to install a piece of gear without fracturing the cement all around? etc)
j) If anyone has experience of Hartleys, any weak points of design, performance, handling or behaviour? In here I'm talking about the design itself, not the build material. Any tips much appreciated.
WOW! a lot to ask from everyone, but any opinion and advise HUGELY appreciated
Many thanks
seadago

A few years ago we (as brokers) sold a Hartley 39 that had done four transats with her then (very experieced) owner. She went to be based in the Shetlands in new ownership after a good survey. The new owner later told me he was very plaesed with her. The Hartley 39 is very different to most people's ideas of ferro boats as heavy ugly long-keelers - she looks like an enlarged Contessa 32. See http://www.hartley-boats.com/39.html

Good ferro is very very good, many of the bad ones are horrid.